Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

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Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
People should try a little harder to make some distinctions and understand what spidey is actually saying.

When he says "Society will no longer put up with that shit." he isn't saying "You're gonna see some bands of white people walking the streets grabbin' us some blackies again soon! YEEHAW!"

I know you who hate spidey and want to think about racial issues in these very childish, simplistic frameworks, want to think that's what he's saying. I think you know it's not, though. He's just saying that law-abiding members of society, from ALL races, may be getting to the point where they are no longer going to just roll over for the thugs and criminals, lower their head and walk away, allow their intimidation game to work anymore.

So, not lynch mobs indiscriminately grabbing black kids! Just normal people defending themselves from behaviors which are getting worse and have been for a long time. Certain elements of our society have started to think that it's a legitimate form of entertainment and blowing off steam to try to knock a stranger out, or flash mob a store, etc etc.

Spidey's talking about law-abiding, normal society, no longer just going into the fetal position and praying they don't get hurt, and waiting for these events to pass them by. But rather, to stand up to these thugs and criminals. I think it's a positive thing if it happens.

They aren't all black. There are thugs and criminals from every race, but in the United States in 2012, you'd have to be a simpleton to think that every race was providing an equal share to the "thug pool" - certain specific types of criminal behavior, certain trends in criminality, are exclusive to certain groups. Or nearly exclusive. Like the knockout game and flash mobs. Other activities happen in all groups, but way way more in one group vs. another. THAT is what he's talking about when he says "racial profiling works" and it's true.

Why do cops, the people who deal with criminals the most, racially profile even after they're told not to? Because it's an effective law enforcement tool. Serving several years in law enforcement can certainly turn a person into a real racist or at least what any casual glance would say is a racist.

The important thing for people in danger of becoming real, honest to goodness racists, to keep in mind, and always remember, is that just because you're seeing an outrageously high percentage of criminality coming from a particular small minority demographic, does not mean EVERYONE IN THAT GROUP IS THAT WAY.

There are some brilliant, amazing, kind-hearted, educated, intelligent, productive, law-abiding blacks in the USA. In the world in general. Of course they don't deserve to be lumped in or prejudged, but a lot of shit that isn't fair happens in our life... many hot women may prefer not to be gawked at by horny guys constantly. Yet, it is their lot in life. Many men may prefer not to be bent over by the custody and child support and divorce courts. Or to be eligible for the draft when the other gender isn't... those I believe should change, but for now it's the reality they face. Life isn't fair.

There are steps individuals can take to distinguish themselves from the thugs and criminals, and in fact, the thugs and criminals do most of the work by distinguishing themselves from normal people. It's unfortunate that some normal people still insist on adopting the dress, music, and low level intimidation persona of the thugs. This is ASKING to be misdiagnosed as one of them.

Race is just one part of it, does anyone here honestly think that spidey or any other white person would be afraid of a group of 4 black nerds with glasses, sweaters, khaki pants pulled up, walking down the street at night snorting and laughing about their latest Dungeons & Dragons session?

Anyway... we don't know yet whether Jordan Davis was a thug. We don't know yet whether Michael Dunn behaved rationally, or was a crazy racist piece of shit.
 
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triton2k3

Member
Aug 16, 2007
39
0
66
He fleed to another county right away. They were teenagers. Guilty people run. It was also the nicest part of Jacksonville. Not really a thug ridden area. A lot of out of towners come in for the shopping but its still a quiet area.

The guy was busted for flying a plane like an idiot and had a few other run ins. He thinks he is above the law becuase he's the owner of a noname computer company.


Should be interesting to see what happens with it after the trevon Martin case.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
He fleed to another county right away. They were teenagers. Guilty people run.

1.) My understanding is that this is entirely false. He went and stayed at a hotel he had in the county, and then drove back home the next day as previously planned (home was in another county) But I agree he should've called cops.

2.) Guilty people run most of the time, and innocent people don't run most of the time. However, sometimes the innocent do run because they feel guilty (even if they're not) or because they're afraid. Sometimes the guilty don't run because they're clever and trying to look innocent.

Tell me this, do you honestly think he just sat there in the car, his gf moments away from getting back from inside the store... and just thought to himself "they didn't turn that fucking music down. Okay fuck this, it's on" and then unloaded? Is that honestly what you think happened?

As for this probable/plausible/possible thing I've always understood it to be as OCNewbie laid out, but who cares? Let's drop it and stop derailing.
 

triton2k3

Member
Aug 16, 2007
39
0
66
1.) My understanding is that this is entirely false. He went and stayed at a hotel he had in the county, and then drove back home the next day as previously planned (home was in another county) But I agree he should've called cops.

2.) Guilty people run most of the time, and innocent people don't run most of the time. However, sometimes the innocent do run because they feel guilty (even if they're not) or because they're afraid. Sometimes the guilty don't run because they're clever and trying to look innocent.

Tell me this, do you honestly think he just sat there in the car, his gf moments away from getting back from inside the store... and just thought to himself "they didn't turn that fucking music down. Okay fuck this, it's on" and then unloaded? Is that honestly what you think happened?

As for this probable/plausible/possible thing I've always understood it to be as OCNewbie laid out, but who cares? Let's drop it and stop derailing.

1. Not fighting this, but if I took someone's life I couldn't drive away and go about my business as planned. Have you ever unloaded on someone because of loud music? Would your day to day change a little? You can do that if you have no conscious.

2. Agreed, but circle back to #1

Do you believe a 17 year old kid in a a red 99ish dodge Durango on the largest shopping weekend of the year is driving around with 4-5 other high school kids flashing a shotgun out that was never found would cause this?

Like I said I live very close, this is not the part of town that this happens in. People from other parts of jax come here to shop. Sometimes some are not so nice and this kid could possibly be one of those kids, but I do not get that impression from all of the local news coverage. I am a 27 year old college educated white male, so I'm definitely not pulling the race card and sticking up for my own.

I feel like this guy thinks he's above the law and it's been proven in the past that he has gotten away with things.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
1. Not fighting this, but if I took someone's life I couldn't drive away and go about my business as planned. Have you ever unloaded on someone because of loud music? Would your day to day change a little? You can do that if you have no conscious.

He claims he didn't know the bullets had hit anyone, and honestly how could he?

It's not like he had some slo-mo cam from Fallout 3 that showed the bullets and where they ended up. I'm sure it was an incredibly frantic, hectic couple of moments as he fired, his gf got in the car, and they tore off.

As for going about his business... I would bet serious money that back in the hotel room he was stressing like hell. I bet he was pacing back and forth, repeatedly going over what had happened in his head and outloud to his gf, asking her to reinforce his shaky belief that he'd done the right thing... etc.

I'd be amazed if he just shrugged his shoulders, watched some TV, and went to peaceful sleep. I can't know for sure, but I sincerely doubt he had any idea if he hit anyone, let alone killed anyone, and I sincerely doubt he even got any sleep that night.

Now, as for what I think triggered it?

I don't know. I wasn't there... I'm trying to keep an open mind. I don't rule out the possibility that he was a crazy racist jackass who really did unload because they wouldn't turn the music down. But I think this is extremely unlikely and a childish way of thinking about what probably happened.

I think he probably was really afraid. I think these kids probably really did react very poorly to his request. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they started yelling at him and threatening him. The question is, was his fear reasonable in response to this if it happened? Does he actually think he saw a gun, and DID he see a gun, or is that bullshit or something he imagined? I have no idea.

We know at least one of the 4 in the truck was a criminal. I'd be surprised if at least 2 out of the other 3 hadn't done some shit too, whether they were caught or not. Who knows though.

I feel that it is almost a certitude that they AT LEAST yelled some very insulting "man FUCK YOU" type shit at Dunn, and I think it's very believable they probably made some threats too. Question is, did he use what were obviously hollow threats as an excuse to shoot at them? Again, I have no idea.
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,603
24
81
This explanation is possible, but not plausible IMO.

Uhh, that is a stupid statement to make. You do know that the words plausible and possible are synonymous right?

Besides, you said there was no plausible explanation and I gave you a perfectly plausible one. That may not be WHAT happened, but based off what we know of the case from the media it is a possibility. Also one that must be investigated by police.

Going back to why we're discussing this in the first place. CT said something was possible, but not plausible. In other words, it's within the realm of possibility that a scenario could have occurred, but given that there is a very small probability that such a scenario took place (even though it IS technically possible), it is NOT plausible, i.e., not a believable scenario when taking into account everything that is known.

Once again, they're not the same:

http://robertphilen.blogspot.com/2007/10/possible-plausible-probable-proven.html

There's quite a number of results on Google distinguishing the two.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
He claims he didn't know the bullets had hit anyone, and honestly how could he?

Right, so he can open fired into a car and then go home and pretend like it never happened. So what if he didn't know he hit anyone? He discharged a gun in a populated area.. He could have hit a bystander or killed more than one person in the car...yet, he continues his life and has to be arrested 170 miles away from what he'd done. He wasn't going to call the police and you and Spidey giving him props for running away is INSANE. There is no way to logically explain why someone would do what he'd done unless he had a guilty conscience or he just didn't give two quirts that he might have blown someone's brains out the night before.

Wow, you guys are so dense. He did absolutely nothing wrong.

If I cause a car accident, I can just drive home because I'm not really sure if I cause an injury. No skin off my back! :whiste:
 

They Live

Senior member
Oct 23, 2012
556
0
71
He claims he didn't know the bullets had hit anyone, and honestly how could he?

It's not like he had some slo-mo cam from Fallout 3 that showed the bullets and where they ended up. I'm sure it was an incredibly frantic, hectic couple of moments as he fired, his gf got in the car, and they tore off.

As for going about his business... I would bet serious money that back in the hotel room he was stressing like hell. I bet he was pacing back and forth, repeatedly going over what had happened in his head and outloud to his gf, asking her to reinforce his shaky belief that he'd done the right thing... etc.

I'd be amazed if he just shrugged his shoulders, watched some TV, and went to peaceful sleep. I can't know for sure, but I sincerely doubt he had any idea if he hit anyone, let alone killed anyone, and I sincerely doubt he even got any sleep that night.

Now, as for what I think triggered it?

I don't know. I wasn't there... I'm trying to keep an open mind. I don't rule out the possibility that he was a crazy racist jackass who really did unload because they wouldn't turn the music down. But I think this is extremely unlikely and a childish way of thinking about what probably happened.

I think he probably was really afraid. I think these kids probably really did react very poorly to his request. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they started yelling at him and threatening him. The question is, was his fear reasonable in response to this if it happened? Does he actually think he saw a gun, and DID he see a gun, or is that bullshit or something he imagined? I have no idea.

We know at least one of the 4 in the truck was a criminal. I'd be surprised if at least 2 out of the other 3 hadn't done some shit too, whether they were caught or not. Who knows though.

I feel that it is almost a certitude that they AT LEAST yelled some very insulting "man FUCK YOU" type shit at Dunn, and I think it's very believable they probably made some threats too. Question is, did he use what were obviously hollow threats as an excuse to shoot at them? Again, I have no idea.

I could say the same thing about Dunn. We have no idea about his past.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
Right, so he can open fired into a car and then go home and pretend like it never happened. So what if he didn't know he hit anyone? He discharged a gun in a populated area.. He could have hit a bystander or killed more than one person in the car...yet, he continues his life and has to be arrested 170 miles away from what he'd done. He wasn't going to call the police and you and Spidey giving him props for running away is INSANE. There is no way to logically explain why someone would do what he'd done unless he had a guilty conscience or he just didn't give two quirts that he might have blown someone's brains out the night before.

Wow, you guys are so dense. He did absolutely nothing wrong.

If I cause a car accident, I can just drive home because I'm not really sure if I cause an injury. No skin off my back! :whiste:

I've repeatedly said that I think what he did was likely wrong, that not calling the cops was definitely wrong, that I doubt there was a shotgun, etc.

You're mistaking me trying to keep an open mind and advocate for others to do the same, and consider whether maybe he DID think he was in danger, with me being a fan of this guy. Frankly, from his mug shot... and this is probably not right to say, but he looks disturbed and weird to me.

I continue to lean toward thinking he was in the wrong, but it's just too soon to say and none of us were there. Far as I can tell, those of you on the other "side" of this never even gave a moment's consideration to whether there might be more to this than meets the eye.

You'd make awful jurors.

"Yep, racist who shot black kids for not turning their music down"

Is it fun to think about things at such a shallow level and not question your own first glance and gut reaction?
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
I've repeatedly said that I think what he did was likely wrong, that not calling the cops was definitely wrong, that I doubt there was a shotgun, etc.

You're mistaking me trying to keep an open mind and advocate for others to do the same, and consider whether maybe he DID think he was in danger, with me being a fan of this guy. Frankly, from his mug shot... and this is probably not right to say, but he looks disturbed and weird to me.

I continue to lean toward thinking he was in the wrong, but it's just too soon to say and none of us were there. Far as I can tell, those of you on the other "side" of this never even gave a moment's consideration to whether there might be more to this than meets the eye.

You'd make awful jurors.

"Yep, racist who shot black kids for not turning their music down"

Is it fun to think about things at such a shallow level and not question your own first glance and gut reaction?

IF, there was a gun or object found in the vehicle (that could be mistaken for a shotgun by the self professed expert Dunn) then I might give him the benefit of the doubt. But since nothing was found, I don't see anything that will help him. He was obviously legally impaired with alcohol, and I think that's why he ran.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,662
491
126
If there was really a shotgun wouldn't the person who had it have fired back at the killer's vehicle?
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,603
24
81
If there was really a shotgun wouldn't the person who had it have fired back at the killer's vehicle?

Possibly. Maybe it was unloaded, maybe it was just for show, maybe it wasn't a real shotgun (toy), maybe it was real and loaded but they were too frightened to think after being shot at 8+ times.
 

triton2k3

Member
Aug 16, 2007
39
0
66
I bet they probably said fuck you.. Ect but again when do you yourself feel it's right to pull the trigger. Just drive away.

And if I shot a few shots at a car Loaded with people I would be sure I didn't hit anyone. He knew he hit the kid.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
I've repeatedly said that I think what he did was likely wrong, that not calling the cops was definitely wrong, that I doubt there was a shotgun, etc.

You're mistaking me trying to keep an open mind and advocate for others to do the same, and consider whether maybe he DID think he was in danger, with me being a fan of this guy. Frankly, from his mug shot... and this is probably not right to say, but he looks disturbed and weird to me.

I continue to lean toward thinking he was in the wrong, but it's just too soon to say and none of us were there. Far as I can tell, those of you on the other "side" of this never even gave a moment's consideration to whether there might be more to this than meets the eye.

You'd make awful jurors.

"Yep, racist who shot black kids for not turning their music down"

Is it fun to think about things at such a shallow level and not question your own first glance and gut reaction?

You aren't keeping an open mind when you keep saying in all you rants that the black kids were most likely up to no good. You keep saying the same shit over and over and rephrasing it. The only person you are giving the benefit of the doubt is Dunn. You have racially profiled these kids over and over and now that we know one of them is a thief, you have your mind made up that it is more likely that the rest of them are typical blacks too. I never said you were racist, but you DID admit to racial prejudice...so I CAN call you prejudiced.

You aren't going to convince anyone.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Possibly. Maybe it was unloaded, maybe it was just for show, maybe it wasn't a real shotgun (toy), maybe it was real and loaded but they were too frightened to think after being shot at 8+ times.

Maybe it didn't exist in the first place.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Possibly. Maybe it was unloaded, maybe it was just for show, maybe it wasn't a real shotgun (toy), maybe it was real and loaded but they were too frightened to think after being shot at 8+ times.

"Real thugs" would've shot first.
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,603
24
81
If there was really a shotgun wouldn't the person who had it have fired back at the killer's vehicle?

Possibly. Maybe it was unloaded, maybe it was just for show, maybe it wasn't a real shotgun (toy), maybe it was real and loaded but they were too frightened to think after being shot at 8+ times.

Maybe it didn't exist in the first place.

I was responding to his hypothetical that there really was a shotgun present.
 
Apr 17, 2003
37,622
0
76
No you idiot. The difference is in the context they are typically used and not the meaning. Plausible is used in law and science for example because it is used in reality possibilities. Possible as a word can deal with more abstracts. Their meanings are the same but are typically applied in different contexts although they can be interchanged if need be.

You are confusing both words with PROBABLE which means out of any possible/plausible explanations, the probable explanation is the more likely to occur possibility.

Gee, and I thought this was a tech forum.


incorrect. Probable is a word with weight. Meaning there is higher probabilities versus lower. The other ones don't usually have weight assigned.

ONCE AGAIN:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plausible

DEFINITION: appearing worthy of belief

WHEN SOMETHING APPEARS WORTHY OF BELIEF, THERE IS WEIGHT TO IT. Either you can't read, are feigning ignorance, are plain stupid, or some combination of the three. Either way, I've looked at your responses, and the the "rumors of evidence," and concluded that you aren't worth wasting any more time on since everything is going to go over your head anyway. My parting advice to you is learn English so you can have a fighting chance in comprehending what others are saying.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
People should try a little harder to make some distinctions and understand what spidey is actually saying.

...EDIT...

Anyway... we don't know yet whether Jordan Davis was a thug. We don't know yet whether Michael Dunn behaved rationally, or was a crazy racist piece of shit.

Maybe I would be more receptive to what you are saying if people like him stop posting before all the facts come in...

black male in vicinity of crime = thug = guilt. If we can't find any dirt on the blacks let's start looking because I know there is some.

Absent that his racism shines like a spotlight
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
Maybe I would be more receptive to what you are saying if people like him stop posting before all the facts come in...

Blankslate just posted: "The "real Thug" did shoot first... then he fled the scene."

This is highly characteristic of posts from just about everyone on the other "side" of this from spidey and myself. (I'm not exactly on the same page as spidey here but for simplicity's sake...)

So, which "side" is expressing more certainty before all the facts come in?
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Possibly. Maybe it was unloaded, maybe it was just for show, maybe it wasn't a real shotgun (toy), maybe it was real and loaded but they were too frightened to think after being shot at 8+ times.

Or maybe there was never any object even closely resembling a shotgun and the shooter is lying...

Edit. Read your reply later on in the thread...
 
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umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
You aren't keeping an open mind when you keep saying in all you rants that the black kids were most likely up to no good. You keep saying the same shit over and over and rephrasing it. The only person you are giving the benefit of the doubt is Dunn. You have racially profiled these kids over and over and now that we know one of them is a thief, you have your mind made up that it is more likely that the rest of them are typical blacks too. I never said you were racist, but you DID admit to racial prejudice...so I CAN call you prejudiced.

You aren't going to convince anyone.

The only person he is fooling here is himself apparently... his bullshit agenda was called out the day he signed up on the forums will the sole intent of running his own one man PR campaign while hugging Zimmerman's nutsack. Now he has a new whiter set of bells to sniff. Pathetic verbose POS troll is pathetic.
 
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