News Teens in Make America Great Again hats taunted a Native American elder at the Lincoln Memorial

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
It’s more vital that people like me exercise my first amendment right to call out the tribalistic nonsense you’re advocating. Freedom of the press is not freedom from liability.

Haha, it’s kind of funny that you think the most vital defense of the first amendment is to advocate for the government to punish the press for speaking in ways you don’t like.

When you originally started this debate it’s clear you didn’t even know what defamation WAS as you claimed the Post’s opinions were defamatory when defamation requires a statement of fact and yet here you are once again refusing to admit you’re wrong.

Your stubborn refusal to ever admit you got something wrong even when it’s as basic as you not knowing the definition of the term you are arguing is kind of amazing. Is it really so hard to admit you screwed up?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Haha, it’s kind of funny that you think the most vital defense of the first amendment is to advocate for the government to punish the press for speaking in ways you don’t like.

When you originally started this debate it’s clear you didn’t even know what defamation WAS as you claimed the Post’s opinions were defamatory when defamation requires a statement of fact and yet here you are once again refusing to admit you’re wrong.

Your stubborn refusal to ever admit you got something wrong even when it’s as basic as you not knowing the definition of the term you are arguing is kind of amazing. Is it really so hard to admit you screwed up?
The judge overseeing this case thinks otherwise, which is why he reopened it to discovery.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
The judge overseeing this case thinks otherwise, which is why he reopened it to discovery.

No, discovery is one of the most basic parts of a case and has almost no bearing on what the judge thinks the proper outcome is.

Still no acknowledgement that you didn’t even understand the definition of the word you are arguing, huh.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The guy who wants to lecture liberals about being smug is the same guy who cannot admit any error, no matter how small.

Not dealing with the most introspective person here.
Actually President Obama lectured liberals on being smug. I happen to agree with him.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
No, discovery is one of the most basic parts of a case and has almost no bearing on what the judge thinks the proper outcome is.

Still no acknowledgement that you didn’t even understand the definition of the word you are arguing, huh.
It means the case has enough merit to proceed, and the basis for the case is allegations of defamation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
It means the case has enough merit to proceed, and the basis for the case is allegations of defamation.

The standard for allowing a case to proceed to discovery is almost comically low. It happens for things like the court not having jurisdiction or for the plaintiff the failing to state a claim. The idea that you’re taking this to be some endorsement of your position is absurd.

Yet again I’m going to ask, will you acknowledge that you didn’t know the definition of defamation at the outset?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The standard for allowing a case to proceed to discovery is almost comically low. It happens for things like the court not having jurisdiction or for the plaintiff the failing to state a claim. The idea that you’re taking this to be some endorsement of your position is absurd.

Yet again I’m going to ask, will you acknowledge that you didn’t know the definition of defamation at the outset?
The premise of the lawsuit is defamation, so I used the term correctly. The judge opened the case to discovery, which mean’s that MAGA teen’s lawyers can now question WAPO reporters and seek documentation to prove that bias or malicious intent shaped their coverage.

That you cannot acknowledge this simple fact is a reflection on you, not me. Maybe it was your posts that inspired President Obama to make the statement he did!
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,902
13,392
136
Right wingers : We demand you take out alternative facts and outright disinformation seriously!
Class: Not gonna happen.
This thread.
Fox does not have a bothsides advisary, unless you think CNN is run by Soros and you think Soros is hitler.
Hannitys opposite is not Maddow.
Youtube hannity wannabes is just plain sad.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
The premise of the lawsuit is defamation, so I used the term correctly.

No, you did not. You said their opinions were defamatory when opinions explicitly can’t be defamatory. Only statements of fact can be.

The fact that you’re still insisting ‘their opinion was defamatory’ was correct shows just how completely unable you are to admit even the smallest error even when the definition is staring you straight in the face.

The judge opened the case to discovery, which mean’s that MAGA teen’s lawyers can now question WAPO reporters and seek documentation to prove that bias or malicious intent shaped their coverage.

Right, and this has basically no bearing on the merits of their case. When deciding whether or not to open a case to discovery the judge must treat the plaintiff’s interpretation of the case as 100% true. So in this case if they could find a single factual error in the article that could possibly harm the kid’s reputation in any way presuming they were the victim of an orchestrated, mustache twirling conspiracy they can move to discovery.

That you’re trying to make that some endorsement of your position is ridiculous.

That you cannot acknowledge this simple fact is a reflection on you, not me. Maybe it was your posts that inspired President Obama to make the statement he did!

Huh?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
No, you did not. You said their opinions were defamatory when opinions explicitly can’t be defamatory. Only statements of fact can be.
Why didn’t you just admit you wanted to play a game of semantics, would have saved you a lot of trouble. You are correct, statements of fact can only be defamatory. This case is to determine if opinion or bias influenced the presentation of those facts, hence defamation. How is my grammar?

Right, and this has basically no bearing on the merits of their case. When deciding whether or not to open a case to discovery the judge must treat the plaintiff’s interpretation of the case as 100% true. So in this case if they could find a single factual error in the article that could possibly harm the kid’s reputation in any way presuming they were the victim of an orchestrated, mustache twirling conspiracy they can move to discovery.
Dismissing a case assumes it has no merit. The case is now moving forward. Trump gloating about it on Twitter is probably what triggered most of you.

That you’re trying to make that some endorsement of your position is ridiculous.
My position remains the smugness around this entire story, and its been proven several times over.

wut?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
Why didn’t you just admit you wanted to play a game of semantics, would have saved you a lot of trouble. You are correct, statements of fact can only be defamatory. This case is to determine if opinion or bias influenced the presentation of those facts, hence defamation. How is my grammar?

Still bad. If something is a fact that is an absolute, irrefutable defense against a defamation claim. As soon as something is shown to be a fact, case over. How those facts are presented and framed is the opinion of the writer and is activity protected by the first amendment. That’s why Fox News can call the Obama’s fist bump a ‘terrorist fist jab’ and it is 100% legal.

You still don’t even know the basic definition of what you’re arguing! Congrats on the begrudging, insult laced admission of error though, haha.

Dismissing a case assumes it has no merit. The case is now moving forward. Trump gloating about it on Twitter is probably what triggered most of you.

Moving to discovery says nothing about the merits of the case. For example Devin Nunes is currently suing a twitter account that claims to be his cow for defamation for making fun of him and that case has moved to discovery despite him having zero chance of winning.

So this lawsuit has been found to have similar merit to Nunes suing a fake internet cow. How much merit is that?

My position remains the smugness around this entire story, and its been proven several times over.

wut?

I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here but it surely has nothing to do with my position.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,759
1,455
136
Now you’re trying to move the goalposts. I have never once said the Post should not be criticized, just that attempting to sue them for defamation is wrong and against the Constitution.

While I agree some of the anti-press posts have been worrying to say the least, you realize that you yourself totally moved the goalposts from "This is a case of clearly protected speech by the Washington Post because there needs to be a statement of fact" to "Well, sure maybe there is a statement of fact, but I don't think it's a good one."

Strangely though, your talking points haven't changed much. At the very least you should have stopped the talk about the lawsuit being unconstitutional after being corrected, but whatever.

Besides that, I'm at a loss on why you think that the claim that they accosted Philips and not the other way around is "nonsense." The interaction with Philips seems to be the primary reason everyone got so upset with the MAGA kids, and Sandmann in particular. There's a direct and obvious connection. It's not nonsense, it's completely germane.

Now, where I agree with you 100% is that it's unlikely that discovery will produce much of anything to help Sandmann. I would be very surprised if the situation was the result of WaPo being lying journalists rather than simply bad journalism. And there's no law against being a lazy journalist (nor should there be). But in the unlikely event that such evidence does exist, then WaPo should be nailed to the wall considering the massive reputational hit that the false narrative inflicted on Sandmann.
 
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Reactions: Starbuck1975

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
While I agree some of the anti-press posts have been worrying to say the least, you realize that you yourself totally moved the goalposts from "This is a case of clearly protected speech by the Washington Post because there needs to be a statement of fact" to "Well, sure maybe there is a statement of fact, but I don't think it's a good one."

Huh? My position is exactly the same as it has always been. You appear to have confused my correcting Starbuck that opinions cannot be defamatory to mean that I was arguing there were no parts of the original article that were inaccurate. If you read my posts you'll clearly see that I never believed that to be the case.

Strangely though, your talking points haven't changed much. At the very least should have stopped the talk about the lawsuit being unconstitutional after being corrected, but whatever.

Of course my position hasn't changed! Also the idea that my argument is that the lawsuit is unconstitutional is bizarre as I never made such a claim. How could a private lawsuit even be unconstitutional?

Besides that, I'm at a loss on why you think that the claim that they accosted Philips and not the other way around is "nonsense." The interaction with Philips seems to be the primary reason everyone got so upset with the MAGA kids, and Sandmann in particular. There's a direct and obvious connection. It's not nonsense, it's completely germane.

I'm unclear how you came to this position but it's surely not mine. I said the idea that the reporting was part of some sort of purposeful smear campaign against the kids was nonsense.

I frankly don't care about what happened in this altercation and my position on it from the beginning was that we should give these kids a break even if everything they were accused of was 100% true.

Now, where I agree with you 100% is that it's unlikely that discovery will produce much of anything to help Sandmann. I would be very surprised if the situation was the result of WaPo lying journalists rather than simple bad journalism. And there's no law against being a lazy journalist. But in the unlikely event that such evidence does exist, then WaPo should be nailed to the wall considering the massive reputational hit that the false narrative inflicted on Sandmann.

Well of course as that would be defamation. There is no evidence to support that however which is why people who are saying the Post should be punished are insane.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
This is beyond hyperbole. It's a pretty clear-cut case of irresponsible journalism bordering on malice.

"Irresponsible journalism" isn't illegal and they would have to prove malice, which is what they hope to do with discovery.

Yes. They were too eager to get a story posted before everyone and their grandmothers find out about it through social media.

Competing with viral / misrepresented stories on social media without due diligence is ruining journalism.
"Ruining journalism" isn't illegal either. Even slander and libel laws don't exist to defend the honor/integrity of journalism. Without a smoking gun they are going to find it difficult to prove that the journalists knowingly published false information with malicious intent to defame.

So there should be no consequence for posting your picture along with a string of ruinous easily-disproven allegations?
The consequence is that they lost some public trust and goodwill. Went down a peg.

Is your claim that the Post knew the allegations were false at the time they published them or that they ignored obvious evidence of their falsity at the time of initial publication? If so, what evidence is there for this? If not, then no they should suffer exactly zero legal consequences for this as the first amendment protections of the press are by design extremely strong.
While I doubt the lawsuit will go all the way unless they find a smoking gun, discovery is where we might find one so I'm not dismissive of the suit itself... yet. It may also be that they have documentation of personal correspondence where they reached out to set the record straight and were disregarded, which could go a long way but they still need to show malice. I'm not going to assume the lawsuit is without merit just because we don't know yet.

The consequences they face are that fewer people will buy their news if they think they do a bad job of reporting, just as it should be.
Gah! You beat me to it.

The media enabled a narrative in the absence of fact and should be held liable for their rush to judgment
Sure, but can they be held LEGALLY liable? Possibly, if they can show that the newspaper knowingly disregarded the truth with malicious intent. We don't see any evidence for that but... who knows what they have or what they'll dig up.

The press does not have the freedom to advance the confirmation biases of echo chambers.
Fortunately, they kinda do. Yes, "fortunately." I don't like what they're doing either but it is fortunate for our personal freedoms.

Regardless of their intentions, their direct actions resulting in defamation that was false. You should be responsible for those actions.

I'm sure you can find plenty of their news anchors talking smack about the kids directly, so we aren't just talking about a media article that they can retract/apologize for.
Not everything false is legally actionable. I once saw nightly news share an old wive's tale about daddy "long-legs," particularly the Harvestman, being "the most poisonous [sic] spider except the mouthparts are too small to bite you."
A) Not a spider
B) Not venomous
C) Biting would be irrelevant ("poison" is consumed or absorbed)

ZOMG... SUE!

Some dudes somewhere decided to reclassify Pluto without any legal backing and now they can sue anyone who ever reported it as a planet? Obviously not.

Truth vs. flasehood is not what makes it legally actionable.

problem is he's not a US lawyer and US law (and kentucky law, for that matter, because it's substantively a kentucky case, though with strong first amendment flair and federal procedure being used) isn't the same as quebec law. he's offering his non-expert opinion and people are treating it like he knows what he's talking about. he doesn't.
Well, it was news and he was right when he said months ago why he thought the reasons for the dismissal wouldn't hold up. Though he may not be a US lawyer he is definitely more familiar with the law than your average YouTuber regurgitating legal news without a law degree. He often discusses the differences between Canadian and US law and frequently states when he is unsure about something in US law, deferring to others who do. He's a quality source for some legal news.

Also, people weren't particularly treating him "like he knows what he's talking about." That's your own inference. Hurley posted it as a source for news that the lawsuit was back on. Would you prefer he linked to a WaPo article instead? I certainly wouldn't.

Actually, no. The guy has a strong right-wing bias as evidenced in this video (so what if the president tried to use US funding and his diplomatic powers to get info on a political rival??? Hunter Biden was getting money!!!)


He's full of shit and has a strong bias.

The Hunter Biden case had been closed a year before Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to have the prosecutor in question fired. Anyone who brings up and keeps repeating Hunter Biden's salary or Joe Biden pressuring Ukraine to fire the prosecutor and doesn't mention the proper timeline of events or that all of these have been investigated multiple times with absolutely no wrongdoing being found is acting, as he alleges, with extreme political bias.
His entire charge of political bias against Legal Eagle was that he omitted Hunter Biden's salary, but his own omissions are far more egregious.

So yeah, political hack.

He's undeniably moderate, but you found something you didn't agree with and then did exactly what HurleyBird characterized here:
.The word here is moderate. Unfortunately, there's too much extreme partisanship nowadays which leads to "if you aren't for us you're against us."
Perfect example.

You’re not. You’re obtusely rationalizing tabloid sensationalism to affirm a confirmation bias.

Freedom of the press does not place the press beyond reproach.

They don't have to be legally liable to suffer for their actions. They undeniably lost credibility. They clearly aren't beyond reproach.

Now you’re trying to move the goalposts. I have never once said the Post should not be criticized, just that attempting to sue them for defamation is wrong and against the Constitution.

Unless there's something we don't know, like evidence of the Post rejecting the family's correction and moving forward with the story anyway, which would totally justify the lawsuit up to this point (discovery to look for evidence of existing bias + malicious intent). If they don't find evidence of malicious bias to explain a provable rejection of the truth, then it dies in the courts.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Still bad. If something is a fact that is an absolute, irrefutable defense against a defamation claim. As soon as something is shown to be a fact, case over. How those facts are presented and framed is the opinion of the writer and is activity protected by the first amendment. That’s why Fox News can call the Obama’s fist bump a ‘terrorist fist jab’ and it is 100% legal.
That’s not the argument I presented. You’re playing semantics against yourself at this point

Moving to discovery says nothing about the merits of the case. For example Devin Nunes is currently suing a twitter account that claims to be his cow for defamation for making fun of him and that case has moved to discovery despite him having zero chance of winning.
Again, not the argument I made. I said denying the case is certainly a measure of merit. Allowing it to go forward opens the possibility of establishing defamation. Likelihood of that happening is a separate discussion.

I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here but it surely has nothing to do with my position.
When you figure out what your position is relative to my posts, you let me know
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,468
50,527
136
Unless there's something we don't know, like evidence of the Post rejecting the family's correction and moving forward with the story anyway, which would totally justify the lawsuit up to this point (discovery to look for evidence of existing bias). If they don't find evidence of malicious bias to explain a provable rejection of the truth, then it dies in the courts.

Yes, I agree. It is always possible that some evidence of purposeful misstatement of the facts or a willful disregard for their truth or falsity will be uncovered and if it is I will 100% change my mind and be in support of a defamation claim (although not in the amount of $250 million, which is absurd).

That being said I see no evidence that's the case and frankly I have trouble establishing a motive for why the Post would even do that. Is it that they hate Trump so much that they thought falsely reporting on some teenagers would get him or something?
 
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