Tenant Fatally Stabs Teen Burglary Suspect...

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo
I'd be curious to know if any of these ethugs ever stole anything?

I shoplifted when I was a kid...like 7 or 8ish. It haunted me, so I ended up turning myself in. I've never committed a felony, and never willingly would (at least not one against an individual). If I broke into someones house for any reason I'd fully accept anything they chose to do to me.

you probably grew up in a better environment than this 17-year-old did.... you probably had both parents who were home.... you probably didn't grow up in the middle of gang warfare and street life.... you probably didn't grow up seeing people die.... you probably didn't grow up realizing that it's hard to pull yourself up with the bootstrings when you don't have any boots.... you probably weren't addicted to some kind of narcotic....

my point is that you don't know what happened with this kid... people don't just grow up to do bad things like this (typically). seeing how he was just a petty crook, i doubt he was actually a truly evil person. he was just raised improperly and/or in a bad area. it's a shame that he died because he wasn't good enough at raising himself the right way when his parents couldn't.

You have no idea what happened to me as a kid, so don't presume. Regardless of my environment, I'm required to act in a manner respectful of others, or face consequences. He didn't, so he did. Pretty cut and dry.

If he was on a narcotic, he chose to do it (99.99999999999999999% likely). It's tough to lose a parent, I know because I did. Doesn't give me the right to harm others. Myself maybe, but never others. It sucks having nothing, living on the street. I know, because I've done it. Doesn't give you the right to harm others. It's hard to watch people die. I know, I've done it. Doesn't give me the right to harm others (debatable in instances of directed harm, but still).

I've always fully accepted all consequences of my actions, so should everyone else. Don't wanna die, don't threaten other people. I don't care what your environment was, every child understands this basic idea. Yes, it's a tragedy he died. But the tragedy is on society for forcing him to break into another humans home...everything that happened after that was pre-determined by his actions.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo
I'd be curious to know if any of these ethugs ever stole anything?

I shoplifted when I was a kid...like 7 or 8ish. It haunted me, so I ended up turning myself in. I've never committed a felony, and never willingly would (at least not one against an individual). If I broke into someones house for any reason I'd fully accept anything they chose to do to me.

Is'nt a fist fight a felony? Shoud we shoot the kid? Some kid in my school went into coma from falling back and hitting thier noggin on the concrete I'm sure deaths have resulted from teenage fist fights.

Depends entirely on the circumstances. Could be completely legal (self-defense), a gross misdemeanor or a low level felony. I've only ever struck first once and there were mitigating circumstance in that case, so no, I've never committed a felony.

You should shoot anyone that might seriously injure or kill someone if you don't. The fault always lies 100% with the person who instigated. Don't wanna die, don't endanger others.

I don't think I could shoot someone just cause they are in my home unless they were threatening, as you say, harm. I hav'nt locked my house in 10 years so I prolly wouldnt have a leg to stand on anyway but the point is does the punishment you are doleing out (killing) justifed by the crime (breaking and entering) and how far does that stretch and why? What I mean is your property? You barn? Or limited to your house?

 

[eits]

what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Zebo
I'd be curious to know if any of these ethugs ever stole anything?

I shoplifted when I was a kid...like 7 or 8ish. It haunted me, so I ended up turning myself in. I've never committed a felony, and never willingly would (at least not one against an individual). If I broke into someones house for any reason I'd fully accept anything they chose to do to me.

Is'nt a fist fight a felony? Shoud we shoot the kid? Some kid in my school went into coma from falling back and hitting thier noggin on the concrete I'm sure deaths have resulted from teenage fist fights.

Depends entirely on the circumstances. Could be completely legal (self-defense), a gross misdemeanor or a low level felony. I've only ever struck first once and there were mitigating circumstance in that case, so no, I've never committed a felony.

You should shoot anyone that might seriously injure or kill someone if you don't. The fault always lies 100% with the person who instigated. Don't wanna die, don't endanger others.

I don't think I could shoot someone just cause they are in my home unless they were threatening, as you say, harm. I hav'nt locked my house in 10 years so I prolly wouldnt have a leg to stand on anyway but the point is does the punishment you are doleing out (killing) justifed by the crime (breaking and entering) and how far does that stretch and why? What I mean is your property? You barn? Or limited to your house?

The technicalities are gonna vary widely from place to place. I know in some places it's only your home if it's attached to your main house, in others it's any building on your property. But understand there are a lot of other ways to be legal doing it. You can defend a business in nearly the same manner, and yourself against any harm or perceived harm. And in some places (like Florida now) you can simply always refuse to be a victim.

Yes, the punishment fits. The crime is the danger you may be in. If I find someone in my home illegally, they are obviously willing to break the law...what other laws are they willing to break? Will they harm me? Kill me? Rape my gf or daughter? I don't know, do it? Castle Doctrine (and all derivitives thereof) allow me to not gamble with my life. I can kill them and not worry about it. And I will. If you try to test out an opponent and they are superior to you in weaponry, training, physical aptitudes, etc, then you will lose. If you act first to stop them, incapacitate or kill them, you will usually survive. That's the key, surviving. I don't EVER test out an opponent in hand-to-hand combat...I find my opening and launch one overwhelming attack to end the fight. That's why I've been in so many encounters and been (for the most part) completely unharmed. The mere act of breaking into my home is aggressive against me, so why would I risk harm or death trying gradual escalation when it isn't necessary? Nope. If you break into my home, I will kill you. Period. And I will most probably face no criminal charges because of it.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

I'll take your word for it. I always forget that my idea of the Midwest is mostly limited to the Great Lakes area and Minnesota.

My question is what all falls under generalized crime? Speeding tickets and disorderly conduct? Stuff like that can totally skew a statistic. What if we were to be more specific and limit our scope to burglaries and violent crimes? Not arguing at this point, as I'm genuinely curious.

generalize crime = anything for which you can be sent to jail... drunk driving, theft, assault, domestic abuse, embezzlement, reckless driving, sex offense, etc.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits
what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Rack a shotgun, you might spur the criminal to desperation...causing him to fire randomly, or take a hostage. Try melee, he might be better, or get lucky. You might be great in combat, but he's on drugs and can feel no pain. There are a thousand variables, and NONE of them are worth your life, or that of your children. You say you shouldn't have a kid say 'my daddy killed someone', but it's ok to you to have them say 'my daddy didn't want to hurt anyone so the bad guy raped me in my ass'? That truly makes no sense to me, and before you say that's ridiculous, it's a sick world. You have NO IDEA if that bad guy will kill or rape or not...he's already breaking one law, what's one more to him? They get locked up...MAYBE. Most criminals get off, or there isn't room at the jail to hold them, or they're never caught, or they serve minimal sentences. Then will they be back, for revenge this time? You don't know. Why risk that?

No. Kill them. Period. It's the ONLY way to be safe. If you wanna risk everyones life around you, go for it. I don't choose that path.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eits
what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Curious what's your background? Sounds like military and police.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: eits
blah blah blah

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Time to play "Let's Pretend" in old-school Text RPG format.

You are in your home. It is dark and you are tired.
> walk down hall
A shadowy figure appears at the end of the hallway, ten feet away.
> look at figure
The figure is facing away from you.
> _

Now, you tell me if the figure has

[ ] a knife
[ ] a gun
[ ] a blanky
[ ] all of the above

You have two seconds before he turns to investigate your footsteps. Go.

- M4H

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
You have no idea what happened to me as a kid, so don't presume. Regardless of my environment, I'm required to act in a manner respectful of others, or face consequences. He didn't, so he did. Pretty cut and dry.

1, i said "probably," thereby negating presumption

2, that's fine if YOU'RE required to act in a manner respectful to others... that kid might not have been raised believing that, whether it be because of household teachings or personal experiences

3, it's not cut and dry... don't be so quick to judge. when it comes to other people's psychology/upbringing/principles, it's never that cut and dry. although ethics are objective, morals are subjective; and morals are the code by which we live day to day.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
You have no idea what happened to me as a kid, so don't presume. Regardless of my environment, I'm required to act in a manner respectful of others, or face consequences. He didn't, so he did. Pretty cut and dry.

1, i said "probably," thereby negating presumption

2, that's fine if YOU'RE required to act in a manner respectful to others... that kid might not have been raised believing that, whether it be because of household teachings or personal experiences

3, it's not cut and dry... don't be so quick to judge. when it comes to other people's psychology/upbringing/principles, it's never that cut and dry. although ethics are objective, morals are subjective; and morals are the code by which we live day to day.

The shadowy figure turns to face you.
> run
*BLAM* You are now dead from a sucking chest wound.
> restart game
You're dead. Your final score was 0/150, rank "No0bLet"

- M4H

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eits
what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Curious what's your background? Sounds like military and police.

Navy and security of all conceivable types. Worked with a lot of law enforcement, never been one. Now a self-defense instructor/consultant part-time (among a number of other things).

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eits
what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Rack a shotgun, you might spur the criminal to desperation...causing him to fire randomly, or take a hostage. Try melee, he might be better, or get lucky. You might be great in combat, but he's on drugs and can feel no pain. There are a thousand variables, and NONE of them are worth your life, or that of your children. You say you shouldn't have a kid say 'my daddy killed someone', but it's ok to you to have them say 'my daddy didn't want to hurt anyone so the bad guy raped me in my ass'? That truly makes no sense to me, and before you say that's ridiculous, it's a sick world. You have NO IDEA if that bad guy will kill or rape or not...he's already breaking one law, what's one more to him? They get locked up...MAYBE. Most criminals get off, or there isn't room at the jail to hold them, or they're never caught, or they serve minimal sentences. Then will they be back, for revenge this time? You don't know. Why risk that?

No. Kill them. Period. It's the ONLY way to be safe. If you wanna risk everyones life around you, go for it. I don't choose that path.

dude, where the hell do you live where this kind of scenario would ever unfold?? real life isn't a frigging movie (for the most part). be real.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
You have no idea what happened to me as a kid, so don't presume. Regardless of my environment, I'm required to act in a manner respectful of others, or face consequences. He didn't, so he did. Pretty cut and dry.

1, i said "probably," thereby negating presumption

2, that's fine if YOU'RE required to act in a manner respectful to others... that kid might not have been raised believing that, whether it be because of household teachings or personal experiences

3, it's not cut and dry... don't be so quick to judge. when it comes to other people's psychology/upbringing/principles, it's never that cut and dry. although ethics are objective, morals are subjective; and morals are the code by which we live day to day.

I understand your point, but the bottom line is that a persons right to INFRINGE on another is less than a persons right to DEFEND against infringement. The aggressor, the one who instigates, is wrong. Pretty much always. That 'wrongness' designates your righteousness in the engagement. If you are attacked without provocation, defend yourself in the manner most likely to be successful...because your right to be safe is greater than anothers right to infringe on that safety. My subjective views on the subject anyway.

Oh, and I wasn't 'raised' to those ideals. I just grew up, same as everyone else. My personality and education led me to develop my own code of behavior and ethics...which is quite different from anyones around me. I see that you place incredible focus on nurture...I'm more of a nature kind of guy. I believe environment is massively less impacting than you seem to. *shrug* age-old debate, I doubt if we'll solve it here.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: eits
blah blah blah

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Time to play "Let's Pretend" in old-school Text RPG format.

You are in your home. It is dark and you are tired.
> walk down hall
A shadowy figure appears at the end of the hallway, ten feet away.
> look at figure
The figure is facing away from you.
> _

Now, you tell me if the figure has

[ ] a knife
[ ] a gun
[ ] a blanky
[ ] all of the above

You have two seconds before he turns to investigate your footsteps. Go.

- M4H

if i lived alone, i'd run out the same way i came in, pull my cell phone out of my pocket, and call the cops while keeping a mindful eye on the possible exits.

if i had a family in the house, i'd probably do the same thing.... and probably grab an axe to go back into the house to protect my family (i couldn't say for sure because it's a completely hypothetical situation). the reason i'd run out of the house is because burglars just want to steal stuff... that's it. he probably doesn't know that my family is sleeping in the house, so if i ran, he'd run. burglars only use their guns (IF they even have a gun... most don't, unless it's a movie or something) as a last resort.... they're not going to be quick to kill someone and add murder to their list of charges if they get caught. burglar's aren't going to waste their time at a house in which they could get caught and locked up by the cops. if a burglar sees someone, chances are they'll run to steal another day. they won't waste their time fighting you for some crap someone else has. if you did end up subduing a burglar, they'd probably give you back your crap and beg you to let them go.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eits
what is it with some people and this morbid texas justice crap? why kill a guy? why not just subdue him or beat his ass? what's with this readiness to kill another? you guys talk a big game and think it's so righteous and honorable to "defend your family" blah blah blah.... that's all fine and dandy, but you can do so without killing them. their life isn't yours to take, whether they're trespassing or not. quit with the hastiness to kill, jeez...

you guys keep talking about consequences of someone entering someone else's home with criminal intentions... what about the consequences of being quick to kill and ending someone else's life? it will affect the lives of everyone around you, including yourself. wouldn't it make sense to subdue someone?... whether it be one or two stabs or a flurry of rabid punches or an empty pump shotgun to scare the trespasser away..... ANYTHING! that way, they get locked up, no one dies, you won't have the haunting stain of manslaughter on your mind, and your family won't ever be able to say "my dad killed someone"

how can any of you be fine with taking someone else's life? maybe you're just ignorant to the act of taking a life, so you talk a big game like "you come in my house, you're dead" and all that other nonsense.... i dunno. i see no glory in it... only quickmindedness and ignorance.

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Rack a shotgun, you might spur the criminal to desperation...causing him to fire randomly, or take a hostage. Try melee, he might be better, or get lucky. You might be great in combat, but he's on drugs and can feel no pain. There are a thousand variables, and NONE of them are worth your life, or that of your children. You say you shouldn't have a kid say 'my daddy killed someone', but it's ok to you to have them say 'my daddy didn't want to hurt anyone so the bad guy raped me in my ass'? That truly makes no sense to me, and before you say that's ridiculous, it's a sick world. You have NO IDEA if that bad guy will kill or rape or not...he's already breaking one law, what's one more to him? They get locked up...MAYBE. Most criminals get off, or there isn't room at the jail to hold them, or they're never caught, or they serve minimal sentences. Then will they be back, for revenge this time? You don't know. Why risk that?

No. Kill them. Period. It's the ONLY way to be safe. If you wanna risk everyones life around you, go for it. I don't choose that path.

dude, where the hell do you live where this kind of scenario would ever unfold?? real life isn't a frigging movie (for the most part). be real.

I live in a small town in Washington State currently, but I've lived all over. LA, Norfolk, DC, etc. I've seen people dead on the street, I've interrupted burglaries, I've had armed and unarmed confrontations, I've worked with enough law enforcement to hear the stories, and see the victims...to say nothing of working in a hospital ER and watching them come in after the fact.

What I'm talking about IS real life, you're living in an isolated dream world. For instance, while on patrol one night we got a call to assist Kelso PD road block an area. We did and eventually talked with the cops to see what was up. Seems a woman woke up to sounds in her kids room. When she turned on the hall light a man ran out of the room and broke out the front door. He had snuck in through a window and sodomized her 6yr old daughter (with her 3yr old son in the same bed btw). While the police were still there the guy came back to the house because he realized he'd dropped his wallet in the kids room. The police tried to reason with him, he freaked out, they tried to taze him but the gun failed to fire (long time ago tasers were VERY unreliable), used OC on him and he mostly ignored it, started fighting them. Took 5 of them to wrestle him down to the ground. He was mentally ill, and chemically imbalanced either from drugs or lack of meds.

That's one story. Absolutely true (you can research The Daily News archives to find the coverage on the story). You want a thousand more, I've got them. Because of my jobs, and my subsequent awareness and training, I KNOW what real life is my friend. It's EXACTLY what I describe. If you never experience it, consider yourself lucky...not good, not right, LUCKY.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: eits
blah blah blah

EDIT: if they actually posed a threat, that's a different story.

Time to play "Let's Pretend" in old-school Text RPG format.

You are in your home. It is dark and you are tired.
> walk down hall
A shadowy figure appears at the end of the hallway, ten feet away.
> look at figure
The figure is facing away from you.
> _

Now, you tell me if the figure has

[ ] a knife
[ ] a gun
[ ] a blanky
[ ] all of the above

You have two seconds before he turns to investigate your footsteps. Go.

- M4H

if i lived alone, i'd run out the same way i came in, pull my cell phone out of my pocket, and call the cops while keeping a mindful eye on the possible exits.

if i had a family in the house, i'd probably do the same thing.... and probably grab an axe to go back into the house to protect my family (i couldn't say for sure because it's a completely hypothetical situation). the reason i'd run out of the house is because burglars just want to steal stuff... that's it. he probably doesn't know that my family is sleeping in the house, so if i ran, he'd run. burglars only use their guns (IF they even have a gun... most don't, unless it's a movie or something) as a last resort.... they're not going to be quick to kill someone and add murder to their list of charges if they get caught. burglar's aren't going to waste their time at a house in which they could get caught and locked up by the cops. if a burglar sees someone, chances are they'll run to steal another day. they won't waste their time fighting you for some crap someone else has. if you did end up subduing a burglar, they'd probably give you back your crap and beg you to let them go.

How many stories you want from news sites about burglars finding people in the house and either raping them, assaulting them, kidnapping them or killing them? You give me a number of times you'd like to hear about just that ocurring before you'll admit it's a gamble. You tell me, I'll post them.

Not saying you're totally wrong...burglars do prefer no contact...but it's not always just burglary they're after, and they're not always thinking straight. Are you willing to risk the lives of your family, your kids, that they'll just run away? It's ok if you are, you have that right. I'm not though.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Because you don't know if you can subdue them. I've watched a 5 foot nothing girl drop 6' 200lb marines (ok, granted she was a krav maga instructor, but I didn't know that at the time). You don't know if they've got a gun or knife hidden. At night, suddenly, in the dim light, surprised, groggy...do they look like a threat? You can't possibly make me believe you can tell.

You CANNOT know the level of threat until you're engaged, and then it's almost always too late. I feel very fortunate that I've never been in a situation where I've felt the need to fire. Draw, yes, fire, no. But I do fully realize what's being discussed. I've seen more than my share of crime victims, and dead people. It sucks, but if it's a chance of someone innocent being harmed, or a criminal dying, there's no question what I'll choose.

Rack a shotgun, you might spur the criminal to desperation...causing him to fire randomly, or take a hostage. Try melee, he might be better, or get lucky. You might be great in combat, but he's on drugs and can feel no pain. There are a thousand variables, and NONE of them are worth your life, or that of your children. You say you shouldn't have a kid say 'my daddy killed someone', but it's ok to you to have them say 'my daddy didn't want to hurt anyone so the bad guy raped me in my ass'? That truly makes no sense to me, and before you say that's ridiculous, it's a sick world. You have NO IDEA if that bad guy will kill or rape or not...he's already breaking one law, what's one more to him? They get locked up...MAYBE. Most criminals get off, or there isn't room at the jail to hold them, or they're never caught, or they serve minimal sentences. Then will they be back, for revenge this time? You don't know. Why risk that?

No. Kill them. Period. It's the ONLY way to be safe. If you wanna risk everyones life around you, go for it. I don't choose that path.

dude, where the hell do you live where this kind of scenario would ever unfold?? real life isn't a frigging movie (for the most part). be real.

Where do you live where this scenario isn't possible?

A couple months ago, across the street from my work, there was a bar fight. A good samaritan/passerby tried to step in and calm things down. He wound up stabbed and dead when the paramedics arrived. How does it relate? He tried to size up and control a situation he didn't know was over his head.

In the tenant's case his choices are fight or flight. He may not have been able to get out without being seen, and staying put, possibly just waiting to be found is foolish. If you're gonna fight in a situation like this, you fight like the other person might kill you first.

 

[Zebo]

POW- I'd hope you'd use a little discression if the kid was 10 not 14 or 17?... if down that "dark hallway" your Mom decided to show after her car ran out of gas and cell phone was kaput. Or if the man/neighbor threw his hands up said "wrong house" "wrong house" which has been know to happen in tracts that all look the same. So many circumstances which should cause any resonable person to holster thier weapon.

 

[eits]

i'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen... i'm just saying that you're making it sound like it's happens AAAALL the time, and it doesn't. most burglary cases are just that.... burglary cases. they're not burglary/abduction/rape/sodomy/murder cases. burglars don't go in to waste time and risk getting caught. they get in; they get out.

however, it would be hard to assess who's a burglar and who's a pervert/murder...

the thing is that if a 17-year-old kid was trying to steal stuff from me, i'd find it extremely hard to take the time and effort to stab him seven times while he's trying to escape.... that's not called an act of protecting your family. that's called an act of rage, which, i believe, is deserving of no better than manslaughter during road rage episodes.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Zebo
POW- I'd hope you'd use a little discression if the kid was 10 not 14 or 17?... if down that "dark hallway" your Mom decided to show after her car ran out of gas and cell phone was kaput. Or if the man/neighbor threw his hands up said "wrong house" "wrong house" which has been know to happen in tracts that all look the same. So many circumstances which should cause any resonable person to holster thier weapon.

Agreed, obviously. But the point is to approach the situation with as much control as possible, and not to try escalating use of force, which can easily get you killed. People have shot innocents in exactly the manner you describe...now THAT's a true tragedy. Killing a criminal in the act, eh, not so much so.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eits
i'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen... i'm just saying that you're making it sound like it's happens AAAALL the time, and it doesn't. most burglary cases are just that.... burglary cases. they're not burglary/abduction/rape/sodomy/murder cases. burglars don't go in to waste time and risk getting caught. they get in; they get out.

however, it would be hard to assess who's a burglar and who's a pervert/murder...

the thing is that if a 17-year-old kid was trying to steal stuff from me, i'd find it extremely hard to take the time and effort to stab him seven times while he's trying to escape.... that's not called an act of protecting your family. that's called an act of rage, which, i believe, is deserving of no better than manslaughter during road rage episodes.

How long do you think it went on? My guess is about 5 seconds from beginning to end. That's it. 5 seconds. With adrenaline pouring through your body, narrowing your field of vision, deadening your hearing, etc. Not saying it's the case here but usually fights happen so quickly there is absolutley NO thought, just action/reaction. Most people who use their firearms in a fight will empty the magazine, or 3/4 of it, in the initial surge of firing. Same with any melee weapon. If the fight starts you swing fast and furious until there's no more danger. If you haven't ever been in this kind of a fight, it's easy to not understand that. Road rage is attacking someone else, who isn't within your safe space, your home say, and who isn't trying to hurt or kill you. ENTIRELY different situation. Again, study the Castle Doctrine. Your home is entirely different from anyplace else in the world.

 

[eits]

adrenaline comes into play whenever people pull out a gun and shoot people during road rage, too.

it's not the fact that it took 5 seconds to take 7 stabs... it's the fact that the guy was stabbed 7 times while running away. if you can get that close to someone and stab them while they're trying to get away, 7 times, you're obviously trying to kill them and completely disregarding the option of subduing them with your deadly weapon. that's the difference, here.... this guy disregarded his capable option of subduing the burglar and took the opportunity to kill him. that's unfortunate and, personally, i think it's shameful of what we've become.

 

[Ornery]

I'd have just put him out with the trash that he is. If it was a Wednesday, that would be six days before he got picked up. He'd probably rather die of bleeding to death.

Too harsh? Hey, you probably grew up in a better environment than I did.... you probably had both parents who were home.... you probably didn't grow up in the middle of gang warfare and street life.... you probably didn't grow up seeing people die.... you probably didn't grow up realizing that it's hard to pull yourself up with the bootstrings when you don't have any boots.... you probably weren't addicted to some kind of narcotic....

My point is that you don't know what happened in my past... people don't just grow up to do bad things like this (typically). Seeing how I'm just a simple vigilante, I doubt I'm actually a truly evil person. I was just raised improperly and/or in a bad area. It's a shame that he'd die (slowly), because I wasn't good enough at raising myself the right way when my parents couldn't.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: eits
adrenaline comes into play whenever people pull out a gun and shoot people during road rage, too.

it's not the fact that it took 5 seconds to take 7 stabs... it's the fact that the guy was stabbed 7 times while running away. if you can get that close to someone and stab them while they're trying to get away, 7 times, you're obviously trying to kill them and completely disregarding the option of subduing them with your deadly weapon. that's the difference, here.... this guy disregarded his capable option of subduing the burglar and took the opportunity to kill him. that's unfortunate and, personally, i think it's shameful of what we've become.

I think that right there is where the whole argument breaks down. You're saying he had other options and I'm saying he couldn't have known if that was ever an option.

Subduing someone isn't an option if they're bigger, faster, stronger and a better fighter...none of which I think the tenant could discern when it's dark, he's groggy, he's untrained (if he's untrained). Again, why risk your own life even further when it's already potentially in danger?

 

[eits]

when you've got the means by which to stab them, i do believe you have the option. 1 stab/slice and threats of more is enough.

by subduing someone at knifepoint takes away a HUUUUGE portion of the danger potential and put you as an advantage.