Terminator 4nnihilation. Spoiled.

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PingSpike

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Feb 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: Imp
Surprising niblet in the paper today. Terminator beat out 'Night at the Museum' in Canada in terms of box office performance ($1.2 million versus $600k-ish). Can't find an online source right now.

How is that surprising? Ben Stiller isn't funny. Maybe everyone went to the theater and said "Lets see, I want to watch a brain dead comedy today...Night at the Museum? Bleh. Oh! Terminator 4, the last one was pretty funny maybe this one has jokes about inflatable tits in it too."
 

Zolty

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Feb 7, 2005
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My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
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Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

Skynet knew reece was his father? I don't remember that.
 

KeithTalent

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Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

I think because they wanted to lure John Connor there, but yeah, if they had just killed him, following the logic in the movie, then John Connor would cease to exist anyway. Very odd.

I also thought it was odd thet John and Kyle were right in the heart of Skynet, yet they only really had to fight one terminator, then they just wiped their brows and walzted on out of there. Seriously? this super intelligent computer wouldn't have a couple more baddies waiting there for them? It was a ghost town after the one terminator was killed, which seemed somewhat silly to me.

KT
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,740
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Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Just saw it.

All I have to say is that it is good enough for a rental. Don't waste your money at the theaters. The 34% at Rotten Tomatoes is just about right.

T1: well done classic
T2: Just WOW!
T3: Good, dumb action movie.
T4: Pretty stupid action movie. Pretty poorly done.

Conclusion. I do hope to se a T5 and T6, but I doubt it will ever happen.

So even though they've pretty much gotten worse and worse lately, you want more?
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
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Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

I think because they wanted to lure John Connor there, but yeah, if they had just killed him, following the logic in the movie, then John Connor would cease to exist anyway.

KT

Not if Connor's father was the Reese from another timeline. The timelines in the Terminator universe are as screwed now as in Star Trek.

 

KeithTalent

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Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

I think because they wanted to lure John Connor there, but yeah, if they had just killed him, following the logic in the movie, then John Connor would cease to exist anyway.

KT

Not if Connor's father was the Reese from another timeline. The timelines in the Terminator universe are as screwed now as in Star Trek.

I thought the whole purpose of John delaying the attack on Skynet was to save his Dad and, therefore, himself. I recall a discussion in the movie explicitly stating this, but maybe I'm remembering incorrectly?

KT
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Much better than I expected. The weak spots were the lines given to John Connor and the Resistance HQ. Sam Worthington was great. No need for the cheesy fake "Ahnuld" at the end. Special effects were great.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

I think because they wanted to lure John Connor there, but yeah, if they had just killed him, following the logic in the movie, then John Connor would cease to exist anyway.

KT

Not if Connor's father was the Reese from another timeline. The timelines in the Terminator universe are as screwed now as in Star Trek.

I thought the whole purpose of John delaying the attack on Skynet was to save his Dad and, therefore, himself. I recall a discussion in the movie explicitly stating this, but maybe I'm remembering incorrectly?

KT

Just because John knew Kyle was his father doesn't mean Skynet did. Even if it did, so what? It's not really hard to come up with some convenient excuse, err "plot device", to cover up gaping holes in logic. Sorta like the supposedly broken time machine in T1 (since Skynet obviously couldn't build another and send a dozen more back to that same time).

Trying to logically analyze plot inconsistencies in movies about time travel is futile and silly.

One thing I was curious about was where Derek Reese was the whole movie. I wonder if he'll show up in the next one?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
*SIGH*

Okay first off, I love the Terminator storyline as a whole. I liked the movie, thought it was really good, but it still had it's bumps.

The thing is, the more I read of other people, the more I know they don't "get it" with the terminator series.

First off, I'm going to highly recommend the prequel book by Timothy Zahn, Terminator rise from the Ashes, as it expands out the movie by explaining many details the movie didn't bother to do. Yes, the movie was VERY fast paced and didn't take time to slow down much so many people made many wrong assumptions of what is going on.

However, for those that don't plan to read the prequel book, here's some explanations for everyone. But before that, I'm going to address one thing I know is generating some disappointment about the movies for many people. It is this, the Terminator series is episodic, NOT epic.

What does that mean? It means there is no contiguous plot line from start to finish with an intro, a middle, and an end. It's more or less like a TV series on the big screen. Many people going in wanting LOTR style story telling with a protagonist, antagonist, epic evil, duty for the hero, the journey to the climax, the good guy beating the bad guy, and then everyone goes home happy. That is NOT the Terminator series as it stands right now. It's not about winning the war but the battles.

Okay, with that out of the way, here is some further explanations that the book details a bit more that the movie doesn't do. The thing most people have to realize is this story takes place in the near future. Basically what happens is very soon, skynet "awakens" and realizes that it wants to stay alive and the only threat to its survival is humans that can turn it off. Realizing this threat, skynet decides to eliminate us. It decides to do this first off by taking over as many military and infrastructural networks as it possible can to gain access to as much weaponry and manufacturing as it can. It decides at this point the best way to start dealing with us is to start dropping nukes on every major population center across the world. It does realize by doing this, that it will be denying some resources it would have access to, but it also decides it will have enough and can manufacturer faster than us afterward. This is true.

The problem is, that skynet has very limited imagination and under estimates this about humans. So shortly after the original "Judgement Day" where skynet bombs the planet, it is a resource race between skynet and the remainder of humanity. Well those humans left that decide to fight. This is where the movie messes up, because there is quite a bit of humanity left, although most of it has degenerate into survival mode and forms gangs and pockets to live as best as it can. This is where fallout 3 is a very good example in a game to depict this scenario. Mostly at this point it is the resistance that is fighting skynet.

Now here is where I was a little miffed with the movie. At this point, skynet knows NOTHING about John Conner. John Conners "role" as predicted is to unite the remainder of humanity into the resistance capable of fighting back on equal footing against skynet. However, this is done be years of hardwork of Conner working his way up the "chain of command" that the movie glosses over. The book is spot on when it talks about how Conner and his wife would like to come out and tell everyone, Hey, just follow me, I know everything that is about to happen. But he realizes he would be taken for a lunatic if he did. So that whole intro the movie had about him being "prophesied" and everyone knowing he will lead is stupid. In the stories he does garner support by seeming to know the "answers" to skynet's decisions of what to use against humanity, which make others want to follow him, but it's a gradual process.

So at this point in the terminator universe, skynet is building up, humanity is fragmented with only a little resistance, and skynet is trying to develop the best ways to combat what little resistance is left. It no longer has access to a horde of nukes as they were all used, and if it did it would have to find the resistance which at this point is spread out and hiding. Skynet knows it can at this point ignore most of humanity and focus on the human resistance instead. So it decides to create "terminators" to try and infiltrate the resistance to take us out. It knows if it sends anything big after us, which doesn't have much of in the first place, that we humans would run like rabbits and peck at it's feet. Unlike skynet, humans have been fighting wars for a very long time. But skynet is a fast learner. This is the advantage though humans have over skynet, our unpredictability is what allows us to do things it doesn't expect. So skynet tries to create better weapons to take us out. When it realizes one method doesn't work it looks for a better one.

In comes the story of Terminator Salvation, in which skynet tries to make a "human" machine. The problem with other terminators, even the T800 "Arnold" one, is that they are still ALL MACHINE. sometimes it can get close enough to take out what it needs to, but usually humans figure it out a terminator is not a human. So skynet starts collecting humans and human bodies to make the best infiltration system. The problem is, to make one the mind would have to remain human to act human. By leaving Marcus with his own mind skynet has very little control over him, although it thinks the chip it implants in his head will provide the control it needs. All the chip does is give him "urges" because the human brain is still to much for even skynet to figure out at this point for total control.


Now, the book does a very good job of going into the characters shown in the movie and who they are. I especially like the character HKBK, aka the callsign of Williams the female A10 warthog pilot. It does much to show how the "world" is coping after skynets initial attack. These things I'll leave you to read and enjoy.

The movie was good in my opinion but not great because of what the OP called too much cheese. Here I agree. The final fight scene between Conner and the T800 was just way over the top. To have been more plausible, the T800 would not have sat around and toyed with Conner by throwing him all over the place. It would have do whatever it could do to kill him in one hit. That whole end fight scene just made me groan as this is one area the first two movies were awesome with. The terminators are brutal, efficient, and killers. They are not Austin Powers style evil geniuses that leave the hero in a predicament that he can overcome with ease once the evil mastermind walks away. That kind of crap annoys me to no end. Also, the fact is, the movie was not suppose to focus on Conner in the first place, but Marcus. But since they got Christian Bayle to be Conner, they wrote in many more scenes that included him that were originally not in the story.

While there were scenes with the movie I was disappointed over, they weren't enough to detract from the enjoyment of the movie too much.

So the things that bugged me about the movie was this:

1) Too fast paced and never slows down enough to explain a few things which leads the average audience goer to assume things wrongly and thing a few things are plots holes which are not.

2) Too much Bayle.

3) Very little character development for anyone but Marcus, which he was done well at least.

4) Skynet should no NOTHING about Conner or Reece. Should probably know nothing about Reece ever. Period. That would have changed quite a bit about the movie and I wish they had done that.

5) The end "fight scene" was overdone and not needed. Again too much Bayle.

those were the big things that messed up the movie. There were a few little things, like the resistance using PLAIN SPEECH into short wave radio transmissions were are easily received by Skynet. In the books they speak in code. I can understand for the ease of not going too deeply or overly confusing the average movie goer that doesn't read books, that was left as is along with many other side technology and resource issues. Again, reading the books sets this straight so the little things the movie does wrong can be ignored. The big things the movie does wrong that I listed above can't be ignored though.
 

KeithTalent

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Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: Zolty
My only complaint is Skynet knew Kyle Reese was John's father, and they had Identified Kyle Reese, why not kill him?

I think because they wanted to lure John Connor there, but yeah, if they had just killed him, following the logic in the movie, then John Connor would cease to exist anyway.

KT

Not if Connor's father was the Reese from another timeline. The timelines in the Terminator universe are as screwed now as in Star Trek.

I thought the whole purpose of John delaying the attack on Skynet was to save his Dad and, therefore, himself. I recall a discussion in the movie explicitly stating this, but maybe I'm remembering incorrectly?

KT

Just because John knew Kyle was his father doesn't mean Skynet did. Even if it did, so what? It's not really hard to come up with some convenient excuse, err "plot device", to cover up gaping holes in logic. Sorta like the supposedly broken time machine in T1 (since Skynet obviously couldn't build another and send a dozen more back to that same time).

Trying to logically analyze plot inconsistencies in movies about time travel is futile and silly.

One thing I was curious about was where Derek Reese was the whole movie. I wonder if he'll show up in the next one?

Why would Skynet be going after Kyle to use him as bait for John if they didn't know he was John's father?

Futile and silly maybe, but still fun and interesting to do, for me anyway.

KT
 

KeithTalent

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Originally posted by: HumblePie
*snip*

Interesting, I didn't even know there were any books. Thanks for the information. :thumbsup:

KT
 

state 08

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Jun 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: lokiju
OK, just saw it this morning and after reading how bad the reviews were, that it was directed by McG, threads like this, etc, etc, etc. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed the movie.

WTF is everyone looking for? It's a movie about robots FFS! Do you want some deep movie that also has big explosions and amazing special effects?

T! & T2 set the bar high, and so people expect a good movie with robots and explosions.

This ISN'T supposed to be fucking Transformers. That is a movie about explosion adn robots (and it's terrible).

Terminator has always been clever, and highly plot-driven.

this generation of film-goers sucks ass, frankly. Plot drives film, action supports plot. Not the other way around.

Go suck on Michael Bay's tit if you prefer a shitty crash boom smash bang flick.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but here goes. Highly plot-driven is the bottom of the barrel as far as fiction is concerned. And your analysis of what current movies depict is even more alarming. The best films should be concerned with character development first and foremost. Plot comes second.

Think of some of the films (even blockbusters) that remain memorable even to this day. Take Jaws for example. How much action (plot devices) is really in the film? The shark is shown for what, a few minutes at most? The movie is memorable for character development such as the speech by Quinn about his time in the water after the Indianapolis disaster. ?Sometimes that shark he looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be living... until he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then... ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'. The ocean turns red, and despite all the poundin' and the hollerin', they all come in and they... rip you to pieces.? Then there is Chief Brody and his fear of the water, and his interaction with the town council and the woman whose child has died. There is the tension between Quinn and Hooper with their champagne liberal and working class conservative bickering. The story is in the characters, the plot is coincidental.

Now think of a film that is plot driven--a Sci-Fi original for instance. Often they have a similar plot as Jaws. A town is overtaken by some monstrous creature and a group must band together to hunt it down. These films are not as memorable. It is not that they don't have interesting plots. Many do. It is that the characters are flat. They have no qualities that make them into something to remember. They aren't human. Fictional pieces should be like a history of a place that hasn't been. The characters should be "real" people.

We can see how Terminator Salvation fails in this regard. Think of the moment when Marcus and Blair bond. A deep relationship is supposed to have emerged in one night. It is highly unrealistic. He cuts her down, beats up a gang of miscreants, and suddenly she is supposed to trust him with the fate of humanity. This isn't real character development. It is a plot point that the characters must achieve to move the film along to a new event. There is no connection made with the characters. We can't "feel" what they are feeling and therefore there is nothing to relate to in the film. It is merely pictorial events shown on the screen. And, like a picture taken of some obscure artifact that is inconsequential to our existence, we have no reason to remember the film for any length of time as there is nothing to remember.

Wow, such a deep, insightful, intellectual analysis about character and relationship development in a movie about killer time-traveling robots.

You people crack me up. The fact is that it was an entertaining summer movie that will appeal to most people (apart from wannabe film school students). As such, it will make a ton of money from theater and DVD. And two more will also be made whether you like them or not.

Sorry, but next time go watch something with subtitles and people gazing for hours into eachother's eyes.

agreed 110%.

T4 was badass for what it is. People now a days are too damn picky with movies and expect everything to be worth awards when they watch something. Granted, movies are $10+ now a days for tickets alone, so maybe the expectations being higher are warranted.

But my wife and I go spend $30 for a night out at the movies to go and be entertained for 2 hours or so and don't expect to go watch a Braveheart or Saving Private Ryan everytime we step into a movie theatre.

I will be buying it on bluray when it comes out.

You have to expect greatness when the bar is set with a movie as amazing as Terminator 2.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Originally posted by: HumblePie
sniparoo.

so you just summed up an all-important rule in screenwriting & film production:

If the film requires reading a book to understand what is going on, then it fails as a film. period.


Of course, I don't think anything in this flick required any outside reading, as it was nothing more than a dumb action flick.

It was not a terminator movie. I don't think anyone necessarily expects Terminator to be an Epic, but there is a certain structure that succeeded quite well with the first 2 films (as mentioned earlier), that was woefully absent in this one. Even T3 was nothing more than a hammy re-make of T2. beat by beat, they were quite identical.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
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Originally posted by: zinfamous
so you just summed up an all-important rule in screenwriting & film production:

If the film requires reading a book to understand what is going on, then it fails as a film. period.

Yes and no. The film doesn't require you to read the book as it assumes the audience will figure it out as it mostly seems like common sense when related to previous films. T3 showed Skynet dropping nukes on every major population center in the world. This is going to hamper both humans AND skynet, but everyone going in the movie assumes at this point skynet should be all badass and kicking humanities collective ass all over the place without Conner. Unfortunately, making allowances for the average movie goer to have common sense in a movie depicted as action centric, IS FAIL. However, it would have been more fail if the movie had slowed down to explain a few things or thrown some narration in there. People would have complained loudly about that, which they actually did with the first two movies when it was done. Trust me T1 wasn't originally a box office success. It was a pulp classic VHS pickup. The rentals is where is picked up as people back then weren't ready for a "smart" sci fi flick. This is because the first two movies had "time out to explain" moments.

I do agree that both T3 and T4 were much, much, MUCH too action oriented and should have slowed down a bit to thrown some explainations in for plausibility of the plot. The problem with time paradox style movies is that the further the story goes along, the harder it gets to explain stuff so it's much easier to slide right on by those bits and release the "real" content in books afterward. If you aren't used to this fact, I suggest you get used to it, because it will always be fact of film making unless you want to sit through a whole movie showing as long as "Roots" to get all your details.
 

biggestmuff

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2001
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Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: HumblePie
sniparoo.

so you just summed up an all-important rule in screenwriting & film production:

If the film requires reading a book to understand what is going on, then it fails as a film. period.


Of course, I don't think anything in this flick required any outside reading, as it was nothing more than a dumb action flick.

It was not a terminator movie. I don't think anyone necessarily expects Terminator to be an Epic, but there is a certain structure that succeeded quite well with the first 2 films (as mentioned earlier), that was woefully absent in this one. Even T3 was nothing more than a hammy re-make of T2. beat by beat, they were quite identical.

Just like T2 was a remake of The Terminator.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
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Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: HumblePie
sniparoo.

so you just summed up an all-important rule in screenwriting & film production:

If the film requires reading a book to understand what is going on, then it fails as a film. period.


Of course, I don't think anything in this flick required any outside reading, as it was nothing more than a dumb action flick.

It was not a terminator movie. I don't think anyone necessarily expects Terminator to be an Epic, but there is a certain structure that succeeded quite well with the first 2 films (as mentioned earlier), that was woefully absent in this one. Even T3 was nothing more than a hammy re-make of T2. beat by beat, they were quite identical.

Just like T2 was a remake of The Terminator.

OK, but I don't remember a good robot in T1.

I'll have to look into that again.

also, T1 was a suspense-oriented film.

T2 got most of its kicks from action and effects.

You might as well say that Aliens was a remake of Alien, but that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

darkxshade

Lifer
Mar 31, 2001
13,749
6
81
You know, if I were Skynet and didn't want Conner to find Kyle Reese to send him back in time, I wouldn't even bother to capture them. I would simply not research and build a fucking time machine at all... how do they like them apples?
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
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Originally posted by: darkxshade
You know, if I were Skynet and didn't want Conner to find Kyle Reese to send him back in time, I wouldn't even bother to capture them. I would simply not research and build a fucking time machine at all... how do they like them apples?

If that's not genious, I don't know what is...
 

jjzelinski

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Aug 23, 2004
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Based on this thread and several other reviews I went and watched this movie with the lowest of expectations, but I was pleasantly surprised instead. I love it when that happens

PS; anyone who thinks T3 is anywhere near as good as this movie needs a swift kick in the nuts.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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I didn't like it largely due to the glaring plot holes. That and the plot played out strikingly similar to Reign of Fire, interestingly enough another post-apocolyptic world with dragons instead of robots.

How does Skynet know that Kyle Reece will one day become John Conner's father? Even if Skynet did hold this piece of information, how would it know what Kyle looks like? The scene where Marcus arrives in Los Angeles and the first human he meets is Kyle is a bit far fetched.

How does Kyle, living in Los Angeles and surviving on his own, know about the resistance and the red armband? Kyle doesn't have a radio until Marcus fixes it, and just as they turn it on, they happen to catch a John Conner broadcast? I would imagine Kyle would be isolated, alone and questionable that he could survive there for as long as he did.

How is it that John Conner is able to communicate with virtually the whole world and the sub based resistance command with a short range radio? He would need satellite uplinks and all kinds of technology that Skynet would have either destroyed or acquired for itself.

The resistance command sub is afraid of being tracked, yet Ironside's character is frequently in radio communication with the ground based resistance.

How did John Conner, and the human resistance for that matter, manage to salvage so much military hardware? Assuming they did find a military stockpile, I doubt it would be enough to maintain the resistance forces we saw in the movie.

What happened to the laser weapons shown in the future war sequences of the first two movies? I understand this movie was supposed to be near future, and perhaps Skynet hadn't evolved to laser weapons yet. But yet it had Transformers.

It seems that John Conner's branch of the resistance is in close proximity to Los Angeles. Skynet must know where his base is, because those aquabots or whatever the hell they were called were hanging out in the water just outside his base. Why wouldn't Skynet just launch an offensive on the base and simply take them out.

Skynet knows who Kyle Reece is, and manages to capture him, and knows that it captured him. Why not just kill him at that point? Why the need to draw John Conner out?

John Conner captures and hacks a motorcycle terminator, and manages to ride all the way to San Francisco without being detected?

End fight scene. Marcus and John Conner are in the flippin Terminator factory, and John Conner only has to fight one Arnold model? I guess for nostalgia's sake, it was cool to see Arnold again, but Skynet can only muster one Terminator to take on Conner? WTF?
 

Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
13,463
1
0
Okay, saw this finally....

I have to say it sucked, but it was tolerable, I am a big fan of the Terminator Franchise, so I guess I just expect another t2

There was some good action, and it could have been much better, it was quite interesting at first before it spiraled into stupid

The guy who played Kyle sucked, and Bale at one point must have forgotten he wasn't Batman, cause he busted out that voice
 
Oct 27, 2007
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Originally posted by: HumblePie
Trust me T1 wasn't originally a box office success. It was a pulp classic VHS pickup. The rentals is where is picked up as people back then weren't ready for a "smart" sci fi flick.

This is not accurate.
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oct 21, 1999
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dennilfloss.blogspot.com
When the T-800 gets his hands on John, he should have been dead in two seconds flat. The terminators are 'trained' and know the weak spots in the human body to be more efficient killers, so that T-800 would have just snapped his neck immediately instead of starting to toss him around.
 
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