Terri Schiavo

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
A nurse who treated Terri certainly doesn't believe that she's in a "vegetative state".

Second, Third Nurse Accuse Michael Schiavo

From a sworn affadvit:

"I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them."

"Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and [another CNA] would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so.

"We usually did this behind closed doors," Law said, because "we were so fearful of being caught ... we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times."

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened.

"On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Like nurse Iyer, Law suspected that Michael was mistreating Terri, noting in her sworn statement:

"Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn?t trust Michael.

"When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and sometimes had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. ...

"We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left."

"The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a 'Do Not Resuscitate' order had been put on Terri?s chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings."

The nurse may be in actual danger of perjury charges being brought against her since its so transparent nonsense.

Basicly if Terry Schiavo was regularly speaking, there is no possible way a PVS diagnosis would have been made in this court case. She also alleges that Terry Shiavo is clearly acting in a concious manner in a variety of ways. Now if you consider the NUMBER of medical personel who have worked with Terry Shiavo over the years and would presumably have to be in a massive conspiracy of silence to cover this up, you have to recognize this is impossible. One thing worth noting is everytime Terri Shiavo has had her feeding tube removed in the past, she's needed to go to a hospitol to have to re-attached. This adds up to a huge number of medical personel in a hurry. A large portion of these people would now be working other jobs, so they wouldn't have a current financial motive to stay silent or anything of the sort. (I haven't even mentioned the court appointed observer and all the other neutural parties over the years who examined her.) There are also obvious issues such as neutural doctors doing the swallow test, and problems which Teryr Schiavo chocking even when nurses simply put a little water in here mouth to moisten her lips, so clearly this testimony is increadibly suspect. (If the nurse had the nerve to try feeding jello to Terry Shiavo on her own an it failed and Terry Schiavo chocked to death, she could have ended up with some serious criminal charges against her. She wouldn't have dared trying to do something like this without authorization from the hospice.)

 

[Riprorin]

And yet another nurse:

From April 1995 to August 1996, Carla Sauer Iyer was one of Terri Schiavo's caretakers at Palm Garden in Largo, Fla.

Ms. Iyer said that Terri could:


Interact with staff.
Laugh.
Talk - saying words like "mommy," "help me" and "hi."
Let you know if she was in pain.
React reflexively on command.

Interviewer Steve Doocey asked Carla why, in her opinion, Michael Schiavo was not telling people this. She answered that she believes "he wants her to die."

Doocey then revealed that Carla was fired from the care facility because of a disagreement with Michael Schiavo in an incident where she claims he injected Terri with insulin.

Ms. Iyer said that after Michael visited Terri one day for about 20 minutes, with the door shut, she went in after he left and saw Terri sweating, lethargic and "crying hysterically."

Carla checked Terri's blood sugar, and it was barely reading on the glucometer. She also saw a vial of "insulin concealed in the trash bin."

According to Carla, there were needle marks underneath Terri's breast, under her arms and near her groin. Carla talked to the police and then went to the director of nursing, who was very upset that Carla had gone to the police.

She doesn't think Michael Schiavo was a caring husband and claimed to Fox News that he refused to send Terri to rehabilitation of any kind.

Doocey then said that he had heard a story from another nurse who tried to feed Terri, and when Michael Schiavo found out about it, in Doocey's words, "it all hit the fan."

Carla concurred, saying that Terri could be fed by mouth - jello and pudding, etc. - without aspirating, but that when Michael found out Terri was being fed by mouth, he told the nurses he was going to get them fired.

Doocey then asked Carla why she was coming forward now. She answered that she wanted "to let the truth be known. I was one of the very few people who was able to see Terri. She would interact with all the visitors. ... I want everyone to see Terri."

Terri's Former Nurse Accuses Michael Schiavo

 

[Sysbuilder05]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
And yet another nurse:

From April 1995 to August 1996, Carla Sauer Iyer was one of Terri Schiavo's caretakers at Palm Garden in Largo, Fla.

Ms. Iyer said that Terri could:



Doocey then asked Carla why she was coming forward now. She answered that she wanted "to let the truth be known. I was one of the very few people who was able to see Terri. She would interact with all the visitors. ... I want everyone to see Terri."

Terri's Former Nurse Accuses Michael Schiavo

Funny isn't it,when it became known that Michael Schiavo said about seven years into this after therapy failed that his wife's wishes were not to be kept alive he was branded a liar and heavily questioned as to why he waited to express her wishes.

Now you have nurse "miracle" coming forward 8-9 years later and EVERYTHING she says is 100% the truth--even the part where Schiavo rushing toward a nursing states blurts out "Isn't the BITCH dead yet?!?!". Oh yeah...I believe her.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
A nurse who treated Terri certainly doesn't believe that she's in a "vegetative state".

Second, Third Nurse Accuse Michael Schiavo

From a sworn affadvit:

"I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them."

"Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and [another CNA] would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so.

"We usually did this behind closed doors," Law said, because "we were so fearful of being caught ... we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times."

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened.

"On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Like nurse Iyer, Law suspected that Michael was mistreating Terri, noting in her sworn statement:

"Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn?t trust Michael.

"When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and sometimes had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. ...

"We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left."

"The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a 'Do Not Resuscitate' order had been put on Terri?s chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings."

Proof, please? This is PURE hearsay. Your quotations are meaningless and valueless.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
An affadvit from another nurse:

"During this assignment I took care of Terri Schiavo several times," Johnson said in her own August 2003 affidavit.

"I learned, as part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri. This surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against a doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders."

Johnson recalled: "No one was allowed to just go in and see Terri. Michael had a visitors list. We all knew that we would lose our jobs if we did not do exactly what Michael said to do."

"I remember seeing Michael Schiavo only once the entire time I worked at Sabal Palms, but we were all aware that Terri was not to be given any kind of rehabilitative help, per his instructions.

"Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Terri's hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this," Johnson said, "as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation."

So in one of your little quotes here you claim that they were "always on the lookout for Michael", and yet here your little nursey claims "I remember seeing Michael only once the entire time I worked at Sabal Palms". So which is it? If you only saw him ONCE you sure wouldn't be constantly on the lookout for him, now would you?

And if these people did the rehabilitation therapy anyway, why didn't it work? Why isn't Terri up and running around, commenting on the case, demanding food? You want to know why, Rip? BECAUSE HER BRAIN IS DEAD. Her Cerebral Cortex, which controls the majority of higher brain functions INCLUDING memory and cognition, has *LIQUIFIED*.

You're just proving what most of us here have known all along: That you're a hypocritical religious NUT with an agenda and a well developed taste for DENYING THE FACTS.

Jason

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: lebe0024
Why on earth do people keep saying she can't feel pain?

Have you seen a Doctor say that she can feel pain???

Also those Videos are garbage and don't prove a thing. Might as well have stage a play.

they should send her head ct scans to every neuroradiologist in the country and have them come to a consensus. then they should get an mri and fmri and do the same thing. that would settle whether or not her cerebral cortex is functional.

from what i've read about the ct scans, her cerebral cortex is mush, but i'd like to see for myself.

While functional tests like MRI and PET scans are useful for determining the structural details of the damage, the problem demonstrated by the CT scan isn't structural damage, but the absence of most of the cerebral cortex. There are no structural details to be seen on finer scans, as her cortex is largely liquefied.

Here's the CT scan since you wanted to see it: http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/CT%20scan.png

Here's a CT scan of a healthy brain:
http://www.unityhc.com/invami/patientinfo/pop_up/ct_1.htm

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Also those Videos are garbage and don't prove a thing. Might as well have stage a play.

The video clips were staged. Terri does emit random behavior and noises, as does most people with PVS. If her parents give another commands or interaction attempts over the course of the 4 1/2 hours they taped, then by coincidence, the timing of some of the random behaviors will coincide with their attempts and it will seem like a response. Her parents they selected 6 snippets from those 4 1/2 hours that gave that appearance, and that's what the affadavits were based on. However, when both the trial court and the appeals court viewed the entire tape, both independently concluded that the responses were simply random.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Taejin
What, you want to be kept alive as long as possible too, CycloW?

What, you want another , Taejin? Why don't you try adding something to the thread rather than trying to get in my pants.

 

[Philippine Mango]

these parents are utter morons and should be shot because of all the crap this person is going through. Even if she CAN think clearly, I'm sure she is miserable as hell and wishes she could die because of the fact shes a vegetable!

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Even if she CAN think clearly, I'm sure she is miserable as hell and wishes she could die because of the fact shes a vegetable!

This is the single biggest misconception I see on this forum. People supporting the removal of the feeding tube seem to do so because they themselves would not want to live under similar circumstances. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE. Approximately 40,000 people are currently in similar states in the US alone. Many of them choose to persist in these states as declared by their living wills. I find it ironic that the liberals tend to be the ones most often saying that no person would choose to persist under such conditions, when they claim to be champions of freedom of choice. This choice is one choice that should strictly be left up to the patient and/or the patient's guardian, preferrably as selected by the patient.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Even if she CAN think clearly, I'm sure she is miserable as hell and wishes she could die because of the fact shes a vegetable!

This is the single biggest misconception I see on this forum. People supporting the removal of the feeding tube seem to do so because they themselves would not want to live under similar circumstances. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE. Approximately 40,000 people are currently in similar states in the US alone. Many of them choose to persist in these states as declared by their living wills. I find it ironic that the liberals tend to be the ones most often saying that no person would choose to persist under such conditions, when they claim to be champions of freedom of choice. This choice is one choice that should strictly be left up to the patient and/or the patient's guardian, preferrably as selected by the patient.

Well this "liberal" thinks that this decision should be left up to the patient first, spouse second or failing that, legal guardian. The legal precipice is with the spouse and the spouse wants her to be with God.

There has been third party statements regarding her intentions in this situation that has been deemed viable in court. So a "living will" of sorts was able to be determined and that the spouse was able to choose. (I'm sure you were aware of that.)

If there were a clear living will (or other compelling evidence) saying, "Let me hold on as long as I can", then of couse, we should respect that as well.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Well this "liberal" thinks that this decision should be left up to the patient first, spouse second or failing that, legal guardian. The legal precipice is with the spouse and the spouse wants her to be with God.

There has been third party statements regarding her intentions in this situation that has been deemed viable in court. So a "living will" of sorts was able to be determined and that the spouse was able to choose. (I'm sure you were aware of that.)

If there were a clear living will (or other compelling evidence) saying, "Let me hold on as long as I can", then of couse, we should respect that as well.

It makes so much sense, but according to a zealot on CNN.com an hour ago, you must be opposed to Jesus and therefore love death.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Well this "liberal" thinks that this decision should be left up to the patient first, spouse second or failing that, legal guardian. The legal precipice is with the spouse and the spouse wants her to be with God.

There has been third party statements regarding her intentions in this situation that has been deemed viable in court. So a "living will" of sorts was able to be determined and that the spouse was able to choose. (I'm sure you were aware of that.)

If there were a clear living will (or other compelling evidence) saying, "Let me hold on as long as I can", then of couse, we should respect that as well.

It makes so much sense, but according to a zealot on CNN.com an hour ago, you must be opposed to Jesus and therefore love death.

Well, that's one thing I've never understood about the hardcore religious - for people who supposedly have such a good deal coming after they die, they sure are afraid of death.

Always been interesting to me, that little snippet.

 

[ToeJam13]

"I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them."

We need a timestamp for this statement. After at least three doctors told Michael that rehabilitation was pointless, he decided that it was unnessasary.

"We usually did this behind closed doors," Law said, because "we were so fearful of being caught ... we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times."

It been stated that Michael was very strict with the nurses, on the border of being hostile. Court testimony showed that at least one nurse had a personal grudge against Michael because of it and fabricated testimony. This could be a similar issue.

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened.

That was their job. Luckily by this time, they had a tube for removing moisture from Terri's throat so that she did not choke. Lucky for the nurses, otherwise she might have drowned because of it.

"On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Possible, but highly doubtful. Too many other people have stated that this is just not the case.



What is so interesting is that a small number of nurses (one to three) have stated that Terri does this and that, while the rest are saying something else. Are these nurses disgruntled? Are they also opposed to seeing Terri die due to personal values? Maybe they're lying because they get overtime pay from her. Maybe they're telling the truth and everyone else (the doctors, lawyers, husband, other nurses) are lying.

Who knows. What I do know is that even without therapy, has she been able to recover, she would have shown at least some signs by now. You don't have to have therapy to recover - it just makes it much faster and done correctly. Terri would have at least shown behaviour similar to that of an infant. She doesn't. As such, I think that the Jell-O she eats is not so different from the Jell-O in her head.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

This may come off as cold to many of you, but I am a complete and utter atheist. This woman should not have her feeding tube remove, she should have been killed years ago. Wasting all the resources that have been wasted on this one meaningless (oh we are all equally meaningless), woman is just disgusting. The amount of energy expended on this sigle case could have been used to feed, clothe, educate, and employ an army of healthy people. If you have brain imparment of 30% or more you should be immediately terminated. This woman has brain imparment of 100%. The only thing operating inside her head is her medulla. She is now and has been for 15 years a crippled reptile. She should have the same rights, none. Sorry, laws based on any form of morality are completly errant. There is no such thing as god, and that means there is no such thing as good, evil, right, or wrong. Decisions should be made on utilitarian principles, not principles bound up into phony mysticism.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

terrisfight.org is just wow...

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Well this "liberal" thinks that this decision should be left up to the patient first, spouse second or failing that, legal guardian.

Exactly. This is the long and short of this issue. The legal guardian will most commonly be the spouse. Unfortunately, Florida has some weird laws that make it so this is not necessarily the case. The court becomes the guardian if there are two conflicting sides, which is never a good option in my mind.

Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
This may come off as cold to many of you, but I am a complete and utter atheist. This woman should not have her feeding tube remove, she should have been killed years ago. Wasting all the resources that have been wasted on this one meaningless (oh we are all equally meaningless), woman is just disgusting. The amount of energy expended on this sigle case could have been used to feed, clothe, educate, and employ an army of healthy people. If you have brain imparment of 30% or more you should be immediately terminated. This woman has brain imparment of 100%. The only thing operating inside her head is her medulla. She is now and has been for 15 years a crippled reptile. She should have the same rights, none. Sorry, laws based on any form of morality are completly errant. There is no such thing as god, and that means there is no such thing as good, evil, right, or wrong. Decisions should be made on utilitarian principles, not principles bound up into phony mysticism.

And the dead could be liquefied to be fed intravenously to the living. I'm guessing most people here have seen that movie.

 

[Aimster]

She's dead:

Last appeal = failed
Breaking News

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: Aimster
She's dead:

Last appeal = failed
Breaking News

Not unless Florida legislature passes a law saving her life or supreme court intervention (which they would rule in favor of the husband, being as they are true conservatives and care about states rights).

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
And the dead could be liquefied to be fed intravenously to the living. I'm guessing most people here have seen that movie.

Actually, the movie the Schiavo situation brings to my mind is Night of the Living Dead, though her living corpse is less mobile and aware than even 1960s era zombies.

 

[mwmorph]

just let nature take it's course and let the poor corpse die in peace.

if you dont, she's just gonna rot away anyway.

 

[Fern]

What to think

That our system is messed up.

I'm an avid news watcher. Seeing this broadcast everywhere, watching a woman slowly die while everyone is tuned in is outright ghastly and barberic (sp?).

After all the time, money, court appearences and experts, we're left with a disabled woman surrounded by police who are there only to ensure no one gives her any food or water, and watch her die slowly over several days?

This is the best our society can come up with?

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: joshw10
If Rip is ever drooling in a hospital bed with most of his brain gone, let this thread act as his living will that he wants to be sustained as long as science will allow

Rip has been drooling in a hospital bed with most of his brain gone and posting for a long time. j/k!

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Philippine Mango
Even if she CAN think clearly, I'm sure she is miserable as hell and wishes she could die because of the fact shes a vegetable!

This is the single biggest misconception I see on this forum. People supporting the removal of the feeding tube seem to do so because they themselves would not want to live under similar circumstances. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE. Approximately 40,000 people are currently in similar states in the US alone. Many of them choose to persist in these states as declared by their living wills. I find it ironic that the liberals tend to be the ones most often saying that no person would choose to persist under such conditions, when they claim to be champions of freedom of choice. This choice is one choice that should strictly be left up to the patient and/or the patient's guardian, preferrably as selected by the patient.

You seem to point out other people's misconceptions a lot without ever forming an argument of your own. Based on my readings of your posts in other threads, most of the time you are refuting another person's argument, and when you do form arguments, you like to refer to what is legal rather than what is right and wrong.

When I get you to talk about what is right and wrong, you base your judgments on principles with no definable meaning, like "dignity", albeit, they could have meaning if you voiced more clearly what you mean. In the end, it seems like something is morally correct in your opinion when it is the "right thing to do"...which is an often used circular argument.

Could you please create an argument on whether what is happening to Terri is right or wrong, and clearly define your terms? I'd really like to know how you approach these issues from a moral standpoint.

I actually agree with your point here - though I'm a liberal and my view on the situation is that Terri herself wanted to die.

 

[preCRT]

What they haven't tried is a brain transplant. Seems there are some involved in the case who could make suitable donors, their brains appear almost new, completely unused