Terri Schiavo

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Supreme court refuses to hear case: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/04a825.htm

Sweet

Jeb Bush may send in the Florida National Guard and take her.

and his career will be ~OVER~ for good.

let him send in the Guard, and let it scorn the already-blackened Bush family name.

Last I heard he's petitioning to make her custody of the state so a kidnapping attempt may not be far off if that fails.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Buz2b
Judge Greer refuses to open records requested by the state and the Supreme court turns down the request for an injunction and appeal by parents of Terri.
I think they are out of options now, except to let Terri die with dignity; as should have happened long ago.

Excellent! :thumbsup:

 

[phillyTIM]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
and his career will be ~OVER~ for good.

let him send in the Guard, and let it scorn the already-blackened Bush family name.

Last I heard he's petitioning to make her custody of the state so a kidnapping attempt may not be far off if that fails.

Great - grab the popcorn as we watch another Bush do ANOTHER stupid thing.

The more powerful J.Bush's response is, the quicker his career will be OVER for good.

"BRING THEM ON!!!!"

 

[tin10]

Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

---

That contributes nothing to the discussion. An apology would improve your chances of being able to continue posting anything for awhile.

AnandTech Moderator

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

You DON'T legislate Morality -
do you understand that ?

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

Hey you sound like me when I get mad. And uh, thanks, but you know where you can stick trying to legislate morality.

 

[phillyTIM]

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

YEAH...lets talk about MORALITY... let's talk about Terri's wish to not live as a vegetable... lets talk about Terri's legal, entrusted guardian trying to make the right decisions for her for the past 15 years.

Not her family who wants to keep the carcas of a brain-dead woman alive at any costs, trying to hold on to someone that is no longer there. THAT is MORALITY, my friend.

 

[HeaterCore]

Whose morality? Yours?

Morality isn't the province of the courts. Insofar as government should be involved in morality, it is the legislative branch's job -- the elected representatives of the people -- to convert morality into law. Where, as here, that law is applied strictly by the courts, and there is no Constitutional objection to the law, there's no morality issue. Period. You have no right to impose your brand of morality on Terri Schiavo, just as I have no right to impose mine on her or you.

Learned Hand on Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.:

?I remember once I was with him; it was a Saturday when the Court was to confer. It was before we had a motorcar, and we jogged along in an old coupe. When we got down the Capitol, I wanted to provoke a response, so as he walked off, I said to him: ?Well, sir, goodbye. Do justice!? He turned quite sharply and he said: ?Come here. Come here.? I answered: ?Oh, I know, I know.? He replied: ?That is not my job. My job is to play the game according to the rules.??

 

[ToeJam13]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: ToeJam13
Stephen Hawking is perhaps one of the most brilliant scientists alive. He is a genius in astrophysics and mathematics. He has a motor neuron disease that prevents him from performing any physical activity. Yet he is a scholar, a scientist.

Terri Schiavo is a shell, a living corpse. Her body has had 15 years to recover from her tragedy and its no better now than it was then. She will always be a drain on the rest of mankind. She is alive only in the most technical of sense. She will never benefit society. She will never bear children. She is, for all purposes, dead.

So, what have you done for society lately? Cure cancer? Maybe we should off you too, since you're obviously no Stephen Hawking. This kind of criterion does not hold up to logical examination.

Actually what I was trying to point out is that not all people with severe disabilities are hindered the same way.

Humans can have extraordinary physical limitations yet still contribute to society as a whole. Stephen Hawking is a poster child for this opinion. However, you need not be a world-renowned mathematician ? you could be an author, a historian, a poet, a financial advisor, a consultant... the list goes on.

Terri Schiavo has an extraordinary mental limitation. She cannot perform even the most basic of tasks. You could spend millions of dollars and tens of thousands of man-hours of time rehabilitating her and you wouldn?t even get somebody able to greet you at Wal-Mart. There is nothing to rehabilitate.

As for what have I contributed to society? I?ve written huge numbers of technical documents and white papers that have allowed hundreds of people to better understand technology. I helped design and build a beautiful Craftsman style home that will be the neighborhood envy for centuries to come. I?ve spent time with local schools tutoring children with their history. That and so much more, and I?ve not yet even reached 30.

But then, I don't really need to defend myself with you. Everyone in this forum who has read one of my messages can see that I am a fairly educated person. Grudgingly, your replies show that you also have a good deal of intellect, even if it is rather narrow viewed and shortsighted at times.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Whose morality? Yours?

Morality isn't the province of the courts. Insofar as government should be involved in morality, it is the legislative branch's job -- the elected representatives of the people -- to convert morality into law. Where, as here, that law is applied strictly by the courts, and there is no Constitutional objection to the law, there's no morality issue. Period. You have no right to impose your brand of morality on Terri Schiavo, just as I have no right to impose mine on her or you.

Learned Hand on Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.:

?I remember once I was with him; it was a Saturday when the Court was to confer. It was before we had a motorcar, and we jogged along in an old coupe. When we got down the Capitol, I wanted to provoke a response, so as he walked off, I said to him: ?Well, sir, goodbye. Do justice!? He turned quite sharply and he said: ?Come here. Come here.? I answered: ?Oh, I know, I know.? He replied: ?That is not my job. My job is to play the game according to the rules.??

So why are you complaining? The courts actually stayed out of this one. The legislative branch made the laws that allow for Terri Schiavo's husband to act as her gaurdian. He epxressed that she had conferred to him that her will (her moral choice) would be to not live like this. The courts simply upheld the legislative law that allowed for terri's husband to make that choice. They didn't counter any laws here. The conservative (or maybe the religous right would be a better description) was attempting to have the courts actually rule COUNTER to what the law (written by the legislature) says. You need to keep in mind that the legislative branch has not passed any law other than that, that allowed the federal courts to look at this. That's all they've done. To do any more would make it to obvious that this a direct breach into the private affairs of citizens by big government and the republican party is not that suicidal. So the courts have not decided the morality of this issue, laws written by the legislature (elected by the people) did.

 

[tin10]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

YEAH...lets talk about MORALITY... let's talk about Terri's wish to not live as a vegetable... lets talk about Terri's legal, entrusted guardian trying to make the right decisions for her for the past 15 years.

Not her family who wants to keep the carcas of a brain-dead woman alive at any costs, trying to hold on to someone that is no longer there. THAT is MORALITY, my friend.

First off, her husband was abusive....he isnt trying to make sure her wishes stay on track when there were NO wishes ever written by her, her friends and family(CLOSEST TO HER) never heard her say anything about this....a CLOSE friend of hers was just on Fox news telling her story, of how when once they went to her grandma's funeral and her friend said she didnt want to be kept alive, her friend said Terry didnt comment , but gave her a look of dissapointment......THIRDLY...if u have even watched the slightest bit of news you would know that she is not BRAIN DEAD, however she is brain damaged......there are steps to being brain dead so dont argue that case either

 

[exdeath]

My personal decision:
-------------------------

She died 15 years ago. Let her go already!!! But at least over medicate her and let her go with the same peace and dignity that we give to animals and criminals instead of starving her.

I am not religious at all. For you religious people lets handle this with as much logic as your religion will allow. Pull the tube and let God decide. If God wants her to live, she will, and it will be a miracle (and turn me religious overnight!) If she dies, then God is the murderer and our hands are clean. If it's still our fault somehow, ask for God to forgive you and all is good. There is also the argument that it was God's will for her to die and we are intervening.

There is also a clear cut distinction between 'killing' and 'murder'. Murder is killing, but killing is not murder. Killing someone in self defense even though you know killing is normally not acceptable, you have exhausted all other means and resort to killing as a last resort, and you know you would not do it in ordinary circumstances for example, is not murder.

In this case, you can't murder someone who is for all intents and purposes, already dead. Acting with someones wishes and interests in mind to kill that person, is not murder. Suicide is not murder. Our bodies are the most important piece of property that we have, and like anything else, it is our right to exercise our free will with regards to our life and propery so long as it doesn't trangress on anyone elses rights to the same.

In this case we don't know what her wishes are, so we can't say if it's murder or not if we allow her to die.

The husband doesn't sound like that great a person and my decision is in no way influenced by his wishes. On one hand you could say he wants her dead so he can get her money, but on the other it's unreasonable to believe that when this first happened in 1990 that he saw large sums of money come to him for it to keep her alive until then. You could say he isn't a loving husband because he denied treatment after he got money, but you could also say that this coincided with realizing that her parents are delusional in keeping her alive at all costs and he finally woke up and decided to just let her go. Just about anything involving this man is at least three sides. Then you have the sudden memory of her wishes 8 years later, but you also have him telling his mistress that they never talked about that back then. I would lean on the husband being a non credible asshole myself, but again, my personal decision to let her die is in no way influenced by the husband.

The parents, as said before, are selfish and would rather their daughter live in hell like a chopped up lab rat than suffer any moral guilt. I would gladly bear the sacrifice of a lifetime of guilt in exchange for peace for my child.

If I were a judge:
--------------------

Considering everything, there are two many sides to any point that can be brought up, so the parties involved have turned to the government/law/constitution.

In our Constitution, everything is based on presumption. We have presumptions of what is normal and pre-existing, and guidelines for when we should act contrary to what is presumed. In criminal law for example, we are presumed innocent until proven guilty; and the death penalty is not administered in cases with any, however small, reasonable doubt; etc. Even the Constitution itself is written on the presumption that government has no power except what is explicitly granted by the constitution (in theory anyway). In other words the constitution favors what is presumed to be the every day norm unless extraordinary circumstances cause us to favor contrary to the norm on a case by case basis.

It is the duty of any judge, law maker, or politician to enforce the guidelines outlined in the constitution even if they conflict with personal values.

Such should be the ruling in cases like this in favor of what is already presumed, the preexisting condition being life, unless proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt that she would have wanted to die.

Edit/Add:

Also, in comprimising with the wishes of both parties:

1) Absolve the husband of further responsibility, and revoke all associated personal financial gains due to this situation; grant or recommend formal divorce.

2) The parents, who want to keep her alive, shall bear the full burden of the responsibilities and costs associated with doing so. If this is too expensive, I'm sure all the protestors that wish to keep her alive are more than willing to contribute for continuted medical expenses....

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: tin10

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

YEAH...lets talk about MORALITY... let's talk about Terri's wish to not live as a vegetable... lets talk about Terri's legal, entrusted guardian trying to make the right decisions for her for the past 15 years.

Not her family who wants to keep the carcas of a brain-dead woman alive at any costs, trying to hold on to someone that is no longer there. THAT is MORALITY, my friend.

First off, her husband was abusive....he isnt trying to make sure her wishes stay on track when there were NO wishes ever written by her, her friends and family(CLOSEST TO HER) never heard her say anything about this....a CLOSE friend of hers was just on Fox news telling her story, of how when once they went to her grandma's funeral and her friend said she didnt want to be kept alive, her friend said Terry didnt comment , but gave her a look of dissapointment......THIRDLY...if u have even watched the slightest bit of news you would know that she is not BRAIN DEAD, however she is brain damaged......there are steps to being brain dead so dont argue that case either

The abuse are accusations only. There was not enought evidence to prove this. If I don't like something you do, I can accuse you of being abusive, too. Does that make it so?

Also, I have talked to my wife about what I would want to happen to me in such a case, but not to the rest of my family. why is that so unheard of. You share far more with your spouse than you do with anyone else. And are you serously going to refer to a "dissapointed glance" as to the intent of Terri Schiavo?

This cace should be about carrying out her wishes, instead its turned into a minority wanting to impose their morality on everyone else. We live in a land of freedom and she should be allowed that freedom wihtout government stepping in to decide for her.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: tin10

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

YEAH...lets talk about MORALITY... let's talk about Terri's wish to not live as a vegetable... lets talk about Terri's legal, entrusted guardian trying to make the right decisions for her for the past 15 years.

Not her family who wants to keep the carcas of a brain-dead woman alive at any costs, trying to hold on to someone that is no longer there. THAT is MORALITY, my friend.

First off, her husband was abusive....he isnt trying to make sure her wishes stay on track when there were NO wishes ever written by her, her friends and family(CLOSEST TO HER) never heard her say anything about this....a CLOSE friend of hers was just on Fox news telling her story, of how when once they went to her grandma's funeral and her friend said she didnt want to be kept alive, her friend said Terry didnt comment , but gave her a look of dissapointment......THIRDLY...if u have even watched the slightest bit of news you would know that she is not BRAIN DEAD, however she is brain damaged......there are steps to being brain dead so dont argue that case either

I suggest you click on some of the non-biased links that have been posted here. The fact that you have chosen to believe things that can easily be disproved and have been debunked, tells us all we need to know. :roll:

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: tin10

Originally posted by: phillyTIM

Originally posted by: tin10
Phuck u Philly.....I hope you die the same way she does....phuckin bastard...u still think this sh$% is all political? What about morality?

YEAH...lets talk about MORALITY... let's talk about Terri's wish to not live as a vegetable... lets talk about Terri's legal, entrusted guardian trying to make the right decisions for her for the past 15 years.

Not her family who wants to keep the carcas of a brain-dead woman alive at any costs, trying to hold on to someone that is no longer there. THAT is MORALITY, my friend.

First off, her husband was abusive....he isnt trying to make sure her wishes stay on track when there were NO wishes ever written by her, her friends and family(CLOSEST TO HER) never heard her say anything about this....a CLOSE friend of hers was just on Fox news telling her story, of how when once they went to her grandma's funeral and her friend said she didnt want to be kept alive, her friend said Terry didnt comment , but gave her a look of dissapointment......THIRDLY...if u have even watched the slightest bit of news you would know that she is not BRAIN DEAD, however she is brain damaged......there are steps to being brain dead so dont argue that case either

You worship the Faux too much . . .

As Michael Schiavo said about all these fools speculating on her condition and offering their diagnosis - "Not one of them can tell you the color of my wifes eyes, you know why ?- because NONE of them have even seen her."

The courts have heard all this 'he's abusive' crap before - and their response to that after extensive investigation is that those charges are fabricated - none of those that make those statements are willing to testify under oath that it happened. You know why ?
Because it would be purjury, and punishable under law.

You want abusive ? how about her parens court testimony that they would be willing to have al of her arms and legs amputated - a macabre twist like 'Boxing Helena' to keep ther torso alive - even down to performing serial heart, lung, liver, and other organ transplants - for what purpose ? That's why her parents have been denied custody,
they are willing to treat her like a lab animal in a grotesque experiment.

You willing to take her place ? I think you're not.

Why not make a King Solomon decision ?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: tin10
First off, her husband was abusive....he isnt trying to make sure her wishes stay on track when there were NO wishes ever written by her, her friends and family(CLOSEST TO HER) never heard her say anything about this....

You have no proof of that, just allegations from those trying to keep her alive. The one guy I've seen who may be qualified to comment on this was on Chris Matthews' Hardball, last night. He is both a physician and an attorney, and at the direction of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, he spent thirty days sitting with Terri Schiavo, testing her responses, invesitgating the claims and background of both Michael Schiavo and the Schindler family. He found NOTHING wrong was done by anyone on any side of this, and the findings of all of the legal proceedings were correct. He also said the "abuse" charges were investigated previously and found to be without merit.

I doubt that you are a physician, and even if you happen to be one, I doubt you have spent any time with Terri Schiavo. You are unqualified to make any diagnosis about her condition or to allege about any abuse by Michael Schiavo.

 

[rickn]

It can't come soon enough for that woman to pass. for one, she aint ever coming back and i'm tired of hearing about it about every 5yrs, and two, it will open up a bed at that hospice to someone who really needs it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Jeb Bush's challenge to the diagnosis on Terri Schiavo's brain damage is based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state who observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination of her.

The neurologist, William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, is a bioethicist who is also an active member in Christian organizations, including two whose leaders have spoken out against the tube's removal.

Ronald Cranford of the University of Minnesota, a neurologist who was among those who made a previous diagnosis of Schiavo, said "there isn't a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won't find her in a vegetative state."

===============================================
I can only help this case wakes up some of the American Sheeple to the danger that the Christian Republican movement has put the U.S. in.

 

[exdeath]

All these stories are surfacing from people who have been in such a state for 20+ years and then came out of it...

I will STILL want the plug pulled on me while I am oblivious and unaware.

I freak out as it is when I think I am behind in something, let alone wake up after 20 years not knowing anyone, or friends and family being much older or dead, etc, and being 40+ years old with no job history, no education, no house almost paid off, etc. It's hard enough to start life when you are a child and can progress with the time, let alone start off empty handed at 40+. No thanks. If it?s going to take years, kill me while I am oblivious.

Also a lot of these people come out as different people. If I can't be rebuilt at least the same as before, or better, just let me go before I know any better. I pride myself on having higher intelligence than 'normal' people and even if I was to come back 'normal' it would drive me nuts not being able to know or understand the things I do now; it would be even worse to go from my current intelligence to being frustrated at learning to tie my shoe. I would only want to recover if I could still be me, not somebody else.


?I could be reworked, but I would never be top of the line again; I'd rather be nothing.?
- Bishop, Alien 3

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: exdeath
All these stories are surfacing from people who have been in such a state for 20+ years and then came out of it...

links please?

 

[Abraxas]

There aren't any. There have been stories of a handfull of people who have been in a coma for 20 years and come out of it. Terri has been in a PVS state, not the same as a coma, and a good chunk of her brain has been transformed into a puddle of fluid congregating at the back of her skull. There is no coming out of this.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: exdeath
All these stories are surfacing from people who have been in such a state for 20+ years and then came out of it...

links please?

Sorry, I don't have any particular stories.

I've just faintly heard from various sources that there was a woman on the radio talking about her situation where she was in a vegetable state for years and came out of it, and also a man who was supposedly in a vegetable state for 20 years and recovered 100%.
I'm sure there are all kinds of similar stories coming out about people in this situation coming forward in an attempt to keep Terri alive.

Regardless of credibility of these stories and the likelihood of recovery ...
Personally, even if I were to recover 100%, if it takes 30 years, forget it, unless my body can be frozen for those 30 years. I wouldnt want to deal with waking up 50 years old with nothing. Also, worse than being a vegetable would be being fully concious and aware for those 30 years and trapped in a bag of meat and bone.

 

[mordantmonkey]

Originally posted by: exdeath
All these stories are surfacing from people who have been in such a state for 20+ years and then came out of it...

they're talking about comas. she isn't in a coma and she isn't going to "snap out of it".

 

[Miramonti]

The real tragedy is that the Schiavo family and manipulative opportunistic politicians have created a rare circumstance where most of the people in the country are going to be glad that a good person has died.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: mordantmonkey

Originally posted by: exdeath
All these stories are surfacing from people who have been in such a state for 20+ years and then came out of it...

they're talking about comas. she isn't in a coma and she isn't going to "snap out of it".

I beleive these were cases of vegetable states with no hope of recovery, or so they said.

Regardless, my point was that I would still not want to be kept alive.

It's horrifying to even think of passing out one day at 20 something then waking up the next day at 50 something; even worse to be alive counting every second and wishing you could kill yourself or ask someone else to disconnect you...