Terri Schiavo

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: lebe0024
Why on earth do people keep saying she can't feel pain?

Have you seen a Doctor say that she can feel pain???

Also those Videos are garbage and don't prove a thing. Might as well have stage a play.

they should send her head ct scans to every neuroradiologist in the country and have them come to a consensus. then they should get an mri and fmri and do the same thing. that would settle whether or not her cerebral cortex is functional.

from what i've read about the ct scans, her cerebral cortex is mush, but i'd like to see for myself.

While I can appreciate the sentiment, I'd wager that without a specialist to explain it to us not *one* person on this board would be able to interpret the damn thing.

Besides which, this is a *private* family issue between Terri and her Husband. It's not "Society's" place to judge; Society should butt the hell out.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Kremlar
Look at the videos, staged or not. If she is obviously irritated by a swab being put in her mouth, she's going to be a bit more than irritated if she is starved to death. Use your head.

It seems that more are opposed to the way she has to die more than with the fact that her husband can and should be her "voice" and allow her to die.

So if it is the method.... would anyone like to guess why "starving to death" is the method doctors must legally use and whom we have to thank for that "humane" way of dying? Anyone?

I'm opposed to any method of killing her.

She's a living, breathing, vibrant person who is being loved and cared for by her family.

A neurologist who examined her said that she can improve with rehabilitative therapy, which her husband has witheld.

Can someone explain what's to be gained by killing her?

Kremlar, if you really wanted to know who we have to thank for this method ...

RIP what is there to explain? Let's just assume MS is telling the truth. They were married as adults and he should know her wishes better than anyone. Perhaps they had converstations or she once stated, God, I would not want to live like that...

If this were YOU and these were YOUR wishes, would you want your Mother and Father telling your wife what you would have wanted. Don't you think it would be your wife's call, not theres? Why can't you just respect her wishes?

Because he's a Christian fundie, pure and simple. He thinks it's his PLACE to force his views on others. You see, he is more qualified than Terri or her husband are to make the decisions that affect their lives. What can't you get about that?

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'm not going to assume anything. We don't know what her wishes are.

[/quote]

No, but we know that her HUSBAND is her voice when these kinds of situations occur. If you respect the institution of marriage AT ALL you will butt the hell out of this couple's PRIVATE AFFAIRS and let them do as they will. This does NOT affect you, it does not INVOLVE you. BUTT OUT.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Courts aren't infallible.

Know one knows what her wishes are because they aren't in writing.

Show me the proof that it's her wish is to be starved to death.

They don't HAVE to prove ANYTHING to YOU, to the court or to God. The fact is that they were a MARRIED couple, she's now in a permanent, vegetative state from which she will NEVER recover. If you respect marriage AT ALL you must respect that as a married couple, a "Blessed Union", the couple is effectively ONE. If part of the couple cannot speak, the other is the voice.

Respect Marriage for *once* you damned hypocrite.

Jason

 

[element]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Kremlar
I don't know WHO should make the decision. In my mind, that's the tough decision here and I don't know what should be done.

However, I don't agree with the method of death, and don't think anyone should kid themselves by thinking she won't feel anything.

Makes me want to make a living will however...

I don't agree with it either. I have read on other boards how people are saying we don't starve dogs to death when we want to put them down. I agree. She should be given a lethal dose of a very happy soothing narcotic that will paralyze every muscle in her body and she would pass in matter of minutes. Not days or weeks.

Trouble is, that's *illegal*. Remember Kavorkian? See, if the law were more realistic and allowed for these *extreme* exceptions, she could be given a lethal dose of something and that WOULD be far more humane. I agree the starvation idea sucks ass, but it's the LAW, not the Husband, who is forcing that scenario.

Jason

I agree, if she is to be put to death it should be in a more humane way. It seems like we treat criminals on death row better than this lady. If the choice has to be between starving to death or keeping her alive I think I'd have to choose life. Starving someone to death just seems too cruel. She's not completely unconsious, she has got to feel that right?

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

I really wanted to be reassured about starving Terri to death, that she was just some lump of a person, obviously not feeling or thinking anything. I looked at the videos on http://www.terrisfight.org (multimedia) and I just can't buy it. I'm sure she is not her old self, but there is enough going on there that I really think it's wrong to withhold food/water. She is responding to people in the room, especially her mother. She seems to recognize her and be happy to see her. In particular look at the "How's Your Cold" one.

You can't just go around offing everyone whose quality of life isn't up to your expectations.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Yo_Ma-Ma
I really wanted to be reassured about starving Terri to death, that she was just some lump of a person, obviously not feeling or thinking anything. I looked at the videos on http://www.terrisfight.org (multimedia) and I just can't buy it. I'm sure she is not her old self, but there is enough going on there that I really think it's wrong to withhold food/water. She is responding to people in the room, especially her mother. She seems to recognize her and be happy to see her. In particular look at the "How's Your Cold" one.

You can't just go around offing everyone whose quality of life isn't up to your expectations.

No but you can go "offing" people who expressed that wish, as Terri did. Using information found at that website is akin to using FoxNews to find out if Bush is an OK guy. Even a broken clock is right 2x a day, those videos are not germane to the case.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: element

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: Kremlar
I don't know WHO should make the decision. In my mind, that's the tough decision here and I don't know what should be done.

However, I don't agree with the method of death, and don't think anyone should kid themselves by thinking she won't feel anything.

Makes me want to make a living will however...

I don't agree with it either. I have read on other boards how people are saying we don't starve dogs to death when we want to put them down. I agree. She should be given a lethal dose of a very happy soothing narcotic that will paralyze every muscle in her body and she would pass in matter of minutes. Not days or weeks.

Trouble is, that's *illegal*. Remember Kavorkian? See, if the law were more realistic and allowed for these *extreme* exceptions, she could be given a lethal dose of something and that WOULD be far more humane. I agree the starvation idea sucks ass, but it's the LAW, not the Husband, who is forcing that scenario.

Jason

I agree, if she is to be put to death it should be in a more humane way. It seems like we treat criminals on death row better than this lady. If the choice has to be between starving to death or keeping her alive I think I'd have to choose life. Starving someone to death just seems too cruel. She's not completely unconsious, she has got to feel that right?

Death is never painless.

She is a veggie. Many doctors have a agreed to this and the fact is she is not coming back. She needs to go to a better place, now.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
No but you can go "offing" people who expressed that wish, as Terri did. Using information found at that website is akin to using FoxNews to find out if Bush is an OK guy. Even a broken clock is right 2x a day, those videos are not germane to the case.

So visual evidence, submitted without editing, is subjective?

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
No but you can go "offing" people who expressed that wish, as Terri did. Using information found at that website is akin to using FoxNews to find out if Bush is an OK guy. Even a broken clock is right 2x a day, those videos are not germane to the case.

So visual evidence, submitted without editing, is subjective?

Actually I think they broke a court ruling/law by even making those videos. So they can't be used as evidence and should not even be considered IMHO. Where did you hear they were unedited?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
No but you can go "offing" people who expressed that wish, as Terri did. Using information found at that website is akin to using FoxNews to find out if Bush is an OK guy. Even a broken clock is right 2x a day, those videos are not germane to the case.

So visual evidence, submitted without editing, is subjective?

He's asking the question in a general sense...

It is subjective. We take in information such as this and it's changed by our bias... That can be a bad or good thing...

If I myself where in a state such as that, I would want to be put out. I'd perfer a nice .357 magnum to my head rather than being dehydrated to death... Then the rest of my body donated to science.

I am seeing a lack of evidence on both sides of the argueement. Some say the parents have said they are going agaisnt the wishes of their child reguardless of what she would have said. Prove it. Some people are saying to be she is in a veggie state, prove it. If you're going to say something I want evidence.

It's pretty clear Micheal put 5 years of his own life into trying to fix his poor wife's, he did what he could for 5 years. I am sure he still loves his wife wherever she maybe, but the only gain he has over her death is the fact his wife's wishes are fullfilled. He rejected 1 million dollars, this has to mean something about the man.

 

[oldman420]

well I now feel certain she will be OK now GB and congress coming off break to pass legislation.
she will be OK.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Yo_Ma-Ma
I really wanted to be reassured about starving Terri to death, that she was just some lump of a person, obviously not feeling or thinking anything. I looked at the videos on http://www.terrisfight.org (multimedia) and I just can't buy it. I'm sure she is not her old self, but there is enough going on there that I really think it's wrong to withhold food/water. She is responding to people in the room, especially her mother. She seems to recognize her and be happy to see her. In particular look at the "How's Your Cold" one.

You can't just go around offing everyone whose quality of life isn't up to your expectations.

Another example of easily Americans are duped these days, so sad :roll:

You call that responding???

Wow, I better bring my Garden plants to speak to Congress since they clearly responding enough to vote. :roll:

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: oldman420
well I now feel certain she will be OK now GB and congress coming off break to pass legislation.
she will be OK.

The Supremes, minus Diana Ross, will strike it down. All congress and Bush can do at this point is get her tube re-inserted (for the 4th time) while the appeal is exhausting. One the higher court can determine if the Florida Courts, 19 times over, followed the letter of the law, the tube will be pulled, again, as Terri Schiavo wants.

 

[oldman420]

The Supremes, minus Diana Ross, will strike it down. All congress and Bush can do at this point is get her tube re-inserted (for the 4th time) while the appeal is exhausting. One the higher court can determine if the Florida Courts, 19 times over, followed the letter of the law, the tube will be pulled, again, as Terri Schiavo wants.

as she wants?
last I checked nobody but her murderous husband seemed to feel that way

 

[xospec1alk]

Originally posted by: oldman420
well I now feel certain she will be OK now GB and congress coming off break to pass legislation.
she will be OK.

george bush said:

The sacred institution of marriage should not be redefined by a few activist judges

yet our congress gets to legislate the right for one woman to live? this is such bs.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Because he's a Christian fundie, pure and simple. He thinks it's his PLACE to force his views on others. You see, he is more qualified than Terri or her husband are to make the decisions that affect their lives. What can't you get about that?

They don't HAVE to prove ANYTHING to YOU, to the court or to God. The fact is that they were a MARRIED couple, she's now in a permanent, vegetative state from which she will NEVER recover. If you respect marriage AT ALL you must respect that as a married couple, a "Blessed Union", the couple is effectively ONE. If part of the couple cannot speak, the other is the voice.

Respect Marriage for *once* you damned hypocrite.

I strongly suggest you learn wtf you're talking about before you run around insulting Christians. Your bigoted ignorance is astounding. The spouse does not automatically have power-of-attorney of healthcare. Of course, you would have known this, had you read up on the history of the case in the least, as this is the primary issue at hand.

 

[preCRT]

Originally posted by: oldman420
well I now feel certain she will be OK now GB and congress coming off break to pass legislation.
she will be OK.

You seem to have a very odd notion of 'OK', she is a vegetable. She will NEVER be OK, her brain is gone.


The rest of us will never be ok either, now that Bush & a Republican led congress have tresspassed into the direct heart of the sanctity and privacy of our personal lives and marriages.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Republicans are now officially the party of big spending and big government. Enjoy the hypocrisy, Repukes.

 

[Philippine Mango]

I think they should pull the tube... 1. It's a drain on the husband and other people to keep her "alive" 2. She died a long time ago when the accident first happen and the only thing that makes her "technically alive" is her heart beating 3. While I can understand why they don't want to let her go, they really should because it's seriously a waste.

These people are seriously morons for thinking that she will EVER get better... If she was in a coma for 5 years then maybe but otherwise NO. 10 is pusing it and 15 is just feeding a dead body... LET HER GO you stupid morons..

 

[Philippine Mango]

Originally posted by: DearQT

Originally posted by: oldman420
mm mm

P.S. I'm surprised the media didn't champion the case of a woman who came out of a coma 20 years later (2005). She was able to recognize her dad and do a little chat. The story came out the very week Schavio's case was the hot discussion in February, but no one seemed to give consideration to the recovering woman's story.

Dude you guys don't understand! Shes not in a friggen coma! If she was in a coma, she would be asleep and NOT sitting upright! Coma is where your on your bed asleep, but in this case she is twitching in her bed with half an eye open and half a mouth open...

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: oldman420
The Supremes, minus Diana Ross, will strike it down. All congress and Bush can do at this point is get her tube re-inserted (for the 4th time) while the appeal is exhausting. One the higher court can determine if the Florida Courts, 19 times over, followed the letter of the law, the tube will be pulled, again, as Terri Schiavo wants.

as she wants?
last I checked nobody but her murderous husband seemed to feel that way

That is because you keep checking right wing websites and FoxNews. That is your problem, not mine. If you wanted to see the truth, you would open your eyes. All you have are baseless accusations and no proof. 19 other judges in 6 different courts seem to think you are full of it. But what do they know when you have been so close to the family over the past 15 years. :roll:

 

[ToeJam13]

Last night, CNN showed a rebroadcast of Larry King Live with Michael Schiavo. The original taping was done in 2003. It filled in a lot of the blanks left out by the media.

Brain scans were done long ago on Terri. Those scans showed that after her heart attack, large portions of her brain died. The brain material then began to dissolve away and spinal fluid backfilled the areas. As such, huge portions of Terri?s brain are gone.

Michael has had several doctors diagnose that rehabilitation is out of the question. They have diagnosed her with Persistent Vegetative State (PVS). PVS need not be a drooling living corpse that just stares into nothingness; it also includes people who move, moan, scream, smile, blink and show other rudimentary body motor functions.

Several charges of neglect have been lobbed at Michael. However, according to court testimony, Michael was extremely involved in the care of his wife, almost to the point of being hostile with the nursing staff. Terri has not once suffered from bedsores; she has an OB-GYN as well as an oral hygienist.

Additional charges of neglect have been charged since Michael denies all forms of rehabilitation. Michael claims that he has had three independent doctors perform swallow tests on Terri; all tests have shown that she is unable to swallow on her own and is unable to be re-taught to swallow on her own. Speech and recognition therapy would be pointless due to the loss of higher brain functionality.

Nurses at her hospital have testified that Terri moans, blinks and smiles during all times of the day. Nurses have testified that they have never seen any form of cognitive thought from Terri. The only exception is one nurse who said that Terri attempted to wave and say ?hello? to her. However, the judge ruled that this nurse had a grudge towards Michael due to his strict and harsh demands he placed on nurses caring for his wife, and that this was merely a form of retaliation (backed by her fellow co-nurses).

Michael?s attorney states that many of the videos publicly available on the Internet of her wife are staged. Terri?s parents will videotape her for hours, repeating the same phrases and motions repeatedly with no response from Terri. However, after enough attempts, Terri will randomly go into one of her ?smiling modes?. As such, you should view all video with extreme prejudice. (Think of the adage: you throw enough monkeys into a room with a piano and one of them will eventually play Mozart.)

Lastly, charges of cruelty have been lobby at Michael Schiavo for his method of allowing his wife to die: starvation and dehydration. However, doctors have stated that most of Terri?s major centers for dealing with hunger and thirst are gone. As such, she is not so dissimilar to cancer patients who have no appetite and must be forced to eat. With only her brain stem and lower motor functionality in tact, Terri will not feel the effects of having sustenance withheld.

Most of the charges against him have been done so by Terri?s parents. However, Terri?s parents are counseled by a group of doctors and lawyers who have ties to right-to-life groups. As such, these counsel are prejudicial against Michael?s mission and will distort the truth to fit their means. Worse, they may simply be so blinded by hope and faith in God that they are simply disregarding sound medical advice.

Regardless, this battle has simple turned into a ?doctors versus faith? war. Unfortunately, faith typically involves emotion. This is why right-to-lifers are so unwavering in their view of this event, why they so sincerely believe that Terri is suffering. They are using their heart and not their head.

Politicians have been using this as a stage to gain political points with right wing voters. Terri is little more than a pawn in a bigger game. The Florida courts have been privy to much evidence. The Florida legislature and governor have been privy to emails, letters and calls from political crusaders. The US Supreme Court denied hearing the case because the justices were wise enough to see that the Florida judge was sound in his decision. The US Congress and president are just riding the political tidal wave for all the points they can win with their right-wing constituents.

This is why as of this week I will not longer call myself a Republican. I have already sent for literature on making donations to my local Libertarian party. For other Republicans out there upset over the actions of their party with this issue, I urge you to do the same.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: ToeJam13
Last night, CNN showed a rebroadcast of Larry King Live with Michael Schiavo. The original taping was done in 2003. It filled in a lot of the blanks left out by the media.

Brain scans were done long ago on Terri. Those scans showed that after her heart attack, large portions of her brain died. The brain material then began to dissolve away and spinal fluid backfilled the areas. As such, huge portions of Terri?s brain are gone.

Michael has had several doctors diagnose that rehabilitation is out of the question. They have diagnosed her with Persistent Vegetative State (PVS). PVS need not be a drooling living corpse that just stares into nothingness; it also includes people who move, moan, scream, smile, blink and show other rudimentary body motor functions.

Several charges of neglect have been lobbed at Michael. However, according to court testimony, Michael was extremely involved in the care of his wife, almost to the point of being hostile with the nursing staff. Terri has not once suffered from bedsores; she has an OB-GYN as well as an oral hygienist.

Additional charges of neglect have been charged since Michael denies all forms of rehabilitation. Michael claims that he has had three independent doctors perform swallow tests on Terri; all tests have shown that she is unable to swallow on her own and is unable to be re-taught to swallow on her own. Speech and recognition therapy would be pointless due to the loss of higher brain functionality.

Nurses at her hospital have testified that Terri moans, blinks and smiles during all times of the day. Nurses have testified that they have never seen any form of cognitive thought from Terri. The only exception is one nurse who said that Terri attempted to wave and say ?hello? to her. However, the judge ruled that this nurse had a grudge towards Michael due to his strict and harsh demands he placed on nurses caring for his wife, and that this was merely a form of retaliation (backed by her fellow co-nurses).

Michael?s attorney states that many of the videos publicly available on the Internet of her wife are staged. Terri?s parents will videotape her for hours, repeating the same phrases and motions repeatedly with no response from Terri. However, after enough attempts, Terri will randomly go into one of her ?smiling modes?. As such, you should view all video with extreme prejudice. (Think of the adage: you throw enough monkeys into a room with a piano and one of them will eventually play Mozart.)

Lastly, charges of cruelty have been lobby at Michael Schiavo for his method of allowing his wife to die: starvation and dehydration. However, doctors have stated that most of Terri?s major centers for dealing with hunger and thirst are gone. As such, she is not so dissimilar to cancer patients who have no appetite and must be forced to eat. With only her brain stem and lower motor functionality in tact, Terri will not feel the effects of having sustenance withheld.

Most of the charges against him have been done so by Terri?s parents. However, Terri?s parents are counseled by a group of doctors and lawyers who have ties to right-to-life groups. As such, these counsel are prejudicial against Michael?s mission and will distort the truth to fit their means. Worse, they may simply be so blinded by hope and faith in God that they are simply disregarding sound medical advice.

Regardless, this battle has simple turned into a ?doctors versus faith? war. Unfortunately, faith typically involves emotion. This is why right-to-lifers are so unwavering in their view of this event, why they so sincerely believe that Terri is suffering. They are using their heart and not their head.

Politicians have been using this as a stage to gain political points with right wing voters. Terri is little more than a pawn in a bigger game. The Florida courts have been privy to much evidence. The Florida legislature and governor have been privy to emails, letters and calls from political crusaders. The US Supreme Court denied hearing the case because the justices were wise enough to see that the Florida judge was sound in his decision. The US Congress and president are just riding the political tidal wave for all the points they can win with their right-wing constituents.

This is why as of this week I will not longer call myself a Republican. I have already sent for literature on making donations to my local Libertarian party. For other Republicans out there upset over the actions of their party with this issue, I urge you to do the same.

I saw that replayed last night, too. I had never seen it before. It showed beyond any logical non-ideologue thinkers doubt, that he loves that woman more than life itself and that he and not her parents, are acting in her best interest. He should be honored, not dragged through the mud by a the people who are holding on to their right wing talking points like greedly little children. Great post.

 

[digitalme]

great post ToeJam13

I'll add: As any human being, she deserves to die with dignity... which is not by starving to death or having all America (and the world) witness & comment her death.

Her husband took this decision based on medical advices and I respect such decision. I am sure he is praying for her soul and for a quick and happy ending.

I recommend to anyone to watch the movie The Barbarian Invasion from Denis Arcand... this is a great canadian movie and I am proud to be Canadian when i am watching this masterpiece which talks about death with a warm expression of life...