Tesla Cybertruck

Page 80 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,741
2,119
146
-Teeeeechnically a Millionare is anyone with one million [currency] or more, so someone who has $999,999,999.99 is still a millionare.
I prefer to take the Dave Ramsey approach when defining a millionaire. His approach makes me feel better when being compared to the AT millionaires who have loads of cash just sitting around.

A millionaire is somebody with a net worth of at least $1 million. It's a simple math formula based on your net worth. When what you own (your assets) minus what you owe (your liabilities) equals more than a million dollars, you're a millionaire.
 
Reactions: GodisanAtheist

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,301
2,907
126
I prefer to take the Dave Ramsey approach when defining a millionaire. His approach makes me feel better when being compared to the AT millionaires who have loads of cash just sitting around.
That's the way net worth has been calculated since ancient Roman times. Dave Ramsey has been associated with what should be common sense or common knowledge when it comes to finances. Unfortunately, people are all too willing to ignore common sense.

He paints everything with one large broad brush. In times of sub 3% mortgages he never wavered from his established stance of prioritizing mortgage elimination/payoff over investments. I will never agree with him on that one. There are other silly things he stubbornly holds his ground on that wouldn't or shouldn't be applied to everyone.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,788
10,212
136
I prefer to take the Dave Ramsey approach when defining a millionaire. His approach makes me feel better when being compared to the AT millionaires who have loads of cash just sitting around.
How else would it be defined?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,788
10,212
136
That's the way net worth has been calculated since ancient Roman times. Dave Ramsey has been associated with what should be common sense or common knowledge when it comes to finances. Unfortunately, people are all too willing to ignore common sense.

He paints everything with one large broad brush. In times of sub 3% mortgages he never wavered from his established stance of prioritizing mortgage elimination/payoff over investments. I will never agree with him on that one. There are other silly things he stubbornly holds his ground on that wouldn't or shouldn't be applied to everyone.
Not defending the guy. But he is for people that have an emotional relationship with money and I think his advice is very good for them. He does not try to mathematically maximum wealth value, but the people buried in debt probably don't have a rational relationship with money.

On the mortgages specifically, when you don't owe anyone else a single penny you have vast security. And many (most) people took those 3% mortgages to buy bigger more expensive houses so they didn't actually save anything and saddle themselves higher recurring costs. Being debt free also makes people really really not want to go into debt again for any reason.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,741
2,119
146
How else would it be defined?
I dunno.....it just seems that a lot of people think the definition could be something different. Like to be a millionaire you have to have a million dollars in cash sitting in your checking account.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,427
27,666
136
The word is obsolete. Being a millionaire in 1900, 1950, 2000 bought a lot more than being a millionaire in 2024. I think that is why 1%er caught on. It is inflation neutral.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,301
2,907
126
Not defending the guy. But he is for people that have an emotional relationship with money and I think his advice is very good for them. He does not try to mathematically maximum wealth value, but the people buried in debt probably don't have a rational relationship with money.

On the mortgages specifically, when you don't owe anyone else a single penny you have vast security. And many (most) people took those 3% mortgages to buy bigger more expensive houses so they didn't actually save anything and saddle themselves higher recurring costs. Being debt free also makes people really really not want to go into debt again for any reason.
I know we're going on a tangent here.

I'm reminded of a recent gallop poll that asked investors what they thought was the best investment. Most said real estate followed by stocks. When in reality it's stocks by a wide margin. Stocks are up around 1400% since 1990 (tracking the S&P 500). Real estate values on average are just under 400% since 1990.


The smart person would take that 3% thirty year mortgage after 20% down and let the rest ride an S&P 500 index fund. You wont get the warm fuzzies knowing you own the home outright, but you'll be far better off after those 30 years.
 
Reactions: zinfamous

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,788
10,212
136
I know we're going on a tangent here.

I'm reminded of a recent gallop poll that asked investors what they thought was the best investment. Most said real estate followed by stocks. When in reality it's stocks by a wide margin. Stocks are up around 1400% since 1990 (tracking the S&P 500). Real estate values on average are just under 400% since 1990.


The smart person would take that 3% thirty year mortgage after 20% down and let the rest ride an S&P 500 index fund. You wont get the warm fuzzies knowing you own the home outright, but you'll be far better off after those 30 years.
Assuming they bought the same house either way and they never had a period of time they had to sell off investments to pay the mortgage, which would typically happen during a major dip in the markets. I agree from a pure wealth growth point of view, it's be better to take the 30 year mortgage and invest the rest, everything else being equal.

To me personally, the security of not owing anyone anything is worth the few extra percent I lost out on in the markets. We can maintain our household on less than half of one of our salaries so I doubt we will ever be forced to sell in a downturn.

The flip side is I made my mom refinance to a new 30 year @ 3.25% right before she retired instead of selling stock to pay it off. She cut her monthly bill in half because she didn't use the savings to upgrade.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,340
136
The word is obsolete. Being a millionaire in 1900, 1950, 2000 bought a lot more than being a millionaire in 2024. I think that is why 1%er caught on. It is inflation neutral.

I feel like being a millionaire used to equate to "I made it!". There's not really much of a middle class anymore. In my area, a $250k house is $600k+ now. My friend just rented a house for $2,500...I feel like pre-COVID, you could have bought a mansion here for that amount of money. I'm still renting my pre-COVID place because my rent is locked in, but I can't get an electric car because they just sent out an email that people who were charging up their EV's in the shared garages were causing power outages in the rentals lol.

Only solution is to make more money, haha!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,340
136
Went for a small road trip with the new City FSD in a late-model MY. I'm...blown away. Again, I had NO IDEA that city full self-driving was so advanced! Notes:

* You still have to keep your hands on the wheel, plus they monitor your eyeballs now & ding you. Too many dings & it locks you out for a week, even if you're paying for it.
* It's well-trained. I live in an area with a lot of weird intersections, steep curvy climbs, etc. I wasn't a bobblehead with the computer driving around.
* It still doesn't care about potholes, deeply-set manhole covers, and most road debris. Missed opportunity for LIDAR. Seems like it can detect larger roadkill, however.

* Complex places like NYC require more assistance, but it still does well in a concrete jungle with a lot going on.
* Apparently they had to delete the training data for stop signs because everyone rolls through them lol. So it's VERY cautious about doing a full stop.
* I had some points of nervousness that it handled well. Like at a 3-way intersection that only had a 2-way stop, the non-stop-sign road had a car barreling down it, and it waited for it to start turning before it ventured out. Here in CT we have a saying "never trust a blink" so that was reassuring lol

* I was surprised at how quickly I acclimated to it...it was VERY nerve-wracking at first in the city & backroads, but tbh, I can totally see how it could be used as a driverless taxi now. It's THAT good! Or to say ferry (older) kids to school or soccer practice or whatever. I honestly didn't think this level of quality FSD would arrive this early. Really, really impressed!
* Even left turns into traffic are well-done. A guy was biking across the intersection & it paused to let him go before turning into traffic.
* It still needs a bunch of refinement, but it's not only a strong glimpse of the future, but the future has arrived...my buddy's commute is over 2 hours long & he said it's 100% worth paying the $99/mo subscription because it handles the majority of your commute. You can't goof off & play on your phone (yet) because it will ding you, but the stress reduction from having to pay full-time attention to driving is no small thing!

They've also been tweaking the different modes, including adding an upcoming "Hurry" mode in addition to Chill & Standard modes:


City FSD definitely has that "iRobot" feel to it. I can see how cars in the future would all just coast in concert in cities & on the highways. Again, I am legitimately VERY impressed with the latest Supervised City FSD update! It is YEARS ahead what I thought it would be!
 
Reactions: Brovane

nOOky

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2004
2,892
1,908
136
Assuming they bought the same house either way and they never had a period of time they had to sell off investments to pay the mortgage, which would typically happen during a major dip in the markets. I agree from a pure wealth growth point of view, it's be better to take the 30 year mortgage and invest the rest, everything else being equal.

To me personally, the security of not owing anyone anything is worth the few extra percent I lost out on in the markets. We can maintain our household on less than half of one of our salaries so I doubt we will ever be forced to sell in a downturn.

The flip side is I made my mom refinance to a new 30 year @ 3.25% right before she retired instead of selling stock to pay it off. She cut her monthly bill in half because she didn't use the savings to upgrade.

I think Dave's strategy of the debt snowball relies on momentum both financially and emotionally. When you pay off your home and start investing that extra money every month it really feels like you're getting ahead, and you are. But most people with a home loan these days anecdotally* their monthly payment is too large and they can't invest as much as they should. Being debt-free, even if you still are working on the house loan, is very life changing.
 
Reactions: Zorba

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,788
10,212
136
I think Dave's strategy of the debt snowball relies on momentum both financially and emotionally. When you pay off your home and start investing that extra money every month it really feels like you're getting ahead, and you are. But most people with a home loan these days anecdotally* their monthly payment is too large and they can't invest as much as they should. Being debt-free, even if you still are working on the house loan, is very life changing.
Exactly. When I was plowing my mortgage paying 4x a month on it as soon as it was gone that same money started going straight into my 401k/super backdoor Roth. Never had a chance to increase my spending. I did always more than max out the match.

No one has a perfectly rational relationship with money, but I think Ramsey goes a bit extreme on the everyone has a completely emotional relationship with money side. It's good to self reflect and see were you fall on the scales. Most people that need Ramsey are very bad with money and would be better off striving to be debt free than growing their nest egg a bit faster. (He does have you invest prior to paying off the mortgage)
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,765
20,124
136
As I stated, I am not trying anymore to convince someone that buying this truck is a bad idea, let the Scarlet Letter shine. But to hype up the FSD is just irresponsible and dangerous. We, the public, are being subjected to Level 2 autonomous driving in perpetual beta by a bunch of Elon cult fanboys that act like they will all own robotaxis any minute now. It's obscene.. It's nowhere near Level 4 where it needs to be. It is fundamentally unsafe. There have been many fatalities and hundreds of accidents that have been found by the NHTSA, and all this investigating was started in 2021 with 11 reports that FSD Teslas hit PARKED emergency vehicles. So it is disgusting to hype that shit up like you are @Kaido.

People have died, been hurt, cars destroyed, all because of Elon FSD fanboys that keep hyping up this Level 2 product that is not safe to be hyped like this. Get your CT and make yourself happy, but as far as putting other people's lives at risk, or of being injured, by promoting FSD like you are? That's disgusting. We, the public out there on the roads, do not deserve any of this bullshit. And it's not like you are not aware of it as that has been discussed. Lay off the fucking kool aid.

Keep in mind the numbers of this are conservative.

 
Last edited:

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,516
5,340
136
And it's not like you are not aware of it as that has been discussed.

I had a really fantastic driving experience with the latest City FSD last week. I was honestly surprised at how good it was. It also requires hands on the wheel & eyes on the road now, which is an improvement to the previous software, as well as an improvement over most other competing systems that require or don't require proactive driver attention. Incremental changes are better than no changes, imo!

Part of the bigger picture is how to do we get from Point A (where we are now) to Point B (safer drive & safer self-driving). I wrote my high school thesis paper on automotive safety back in the day (thanks Nader!) & have had a keen interest in it ever since, as I was absolutely SHOCKED by the vehicle death rate in America! People are not exactly much better than Autopilot software:


* Over 34,000 people are killed in motor vehicle crashes each year in America
* That's more more than 100 people per day
* There are over 5 million crashes a year with more than 2 million injuries

Nearly half of the people killed were not wearing seatbelts:


Within that context are the alcohol-related statistics:


* 37 of those 102 people die in drunk-driving crashes
* That's one person every 39 minutes
* In 2022, a total of 13,524 people died in alcohol-impair driving traffic deaths, which were all preventable

So the questions are:

1. Do we need a perfect Autopilot system to move forward?
2. From a purely statistic perspective, if the system is imperfect and kills people, but lowers the overall crash-related deaths & injuries, is that net positive still worth investing in?
3. Can we expect instant perfection without a massive amount of training data?

The conservative numbers you linked to represent only about 1/4 of publicly-tracked data. To date, we actually know of 44 fatal Autopilot crashes. The crashes are tracked in detail on this website:


In addition, the 44 fatalities are not monolithic, as Autopilot was enabled in each of them, but did not necessarily cause the crash. There are 3 basic categories:

1. Autopilot system malfunctions (faulty programming, unable to cope with different situations, etc.)
2. Unavoidable situations
3. Intentional driver misuse

The reality is that there IS no perfect system. Was the Autopilot system rushed to the market? I absolutely think so. Does it have the potential to reduce the overall automotive deaths & injuries on the road before the system gets perfected? I believe so. But then you get people doing nonsense like this:


I'd wager that the current City FSD is an improvement over a drunk driver driving themselves home. Whereas we've had over 40 documented fatal Autopilot crashes, imagine if self-driving technology was government-standard on all new cars & imagine the impact (economics of implementation aside) that would have on the 13,000+ annual deaths from drunk driving.

In addition, I automatically assume that anything released by a company is "murky data" as it is intentionally slanted to make them look good. The most recent data release from Tesla :


"The automaker is only now releasing the data as Q1 2024 shows a significant improvement for Autopilot:

* In the 1st quarter, we recorded one crash for every 7.63 million miles driven in which drivers were using Autopilot technology.
* For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology, we recorded one crash for every 955,000 miles driven.
* By comparison, the most recent data available from NHTSA and FHWA (from 2022) shows that in the United States there was an automobile crash approximately every 670,000 miles."

From a big-picture perspective, we live in a dangerous world filled with impaired drivers, pickup trucks with man-sized grills, and huge vehicles like semi-trucks, busses, RV's, and dump truck around us all the time. I think anything we can do to improve the odds of safety is a Good Thing. I don't think we can do it perfectly or have a perfect rollout. I think Tesla could have done a LOT better with their Autopilot rollout over the years, including making those safety assists an initial requirement & not mis-marketing the capabilities, but I also feel like they triggered a storm of driver assistive technologies. Subaru's EyeSight came out in 2015, Tesla's Autopilot came out in 2015, etc.

Do I think Tesla was irresponsible in their initial rollout of the technology? Yup! Could they have put stricter safety measures in place right off the bat? For sure! Remember this poor guy?


But per your statement here:

"We, the public, are being subjected to Level 2 autonomous driving in perpetual beta."

This is not wrong, but that's also not the only factor to consider in overall vehicular safety. For example, "according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, about 1.5 million people were arrested in a given year for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs." So it's not just beta self-driving vehicles we're up against...it's poorly-maintained vehicles, impaired drivers, people with anger issues, bad weather, etc.

I think anything that can give us a net positive improvement is better than wishing for a perfect future that will never come. Autopilot has been out 9 years with 44 documented fatalities, which averages out to about 5 a year. I don't know the statistics of Autopilot usage, but they've shipped 5.8 million Tesla vehicles to date. Surveys show that about half the people who have access to FSD technologies (not just from Tesla) trust the system "too much":


This is what I've referred to in other threads as the "lull of complacency", i.e. because it works pretty well MOST of the time, we get habitual about it. I feel like Tesla has always over-sold Autopilot as a mature solution, when it's really very far from it. My recent City FSD experience was absolutely fantastic, but it's still a beta system with beta issues & needs to be babysit to ensure accident avoidance.

But why are habits & the "lull of complacency" important? Because out of the NHTSA's 14 recorded Autopilot deaths & 49 serious injuries, plus other collected data, they found that in 78 of those incidents, the drivers had enough time to react as the human driver...but failed to do so, despite have 5 full seconds to do something about it:


The most serious were 211 crashes in which “the frontal plane of the Tesla struck a vehicle or obstacle in its path” and these were often linked to Autopilot or FSD. These incidents led to 14 deaths and 49 serious injuries. The agency found that drivers had enough time to react, but didn’t, in 78 of these incidents. These drivers failed to brake or steer to avoid the hazard, despite having at least five seconds to make a move.

I don't necessarily disagree with your take on it. The ultra-fanboys over-hype everything about the technology. It IS scary to be on the road with beta software. But I also don't know if avoiding the technology altogether would raise or lower the overall death rate on the road, and whether that net gain in human lives is worth, statistically-speaking, the short-term risk to get it out on the road & collecting data. Many of the earlier reports I've seen disagree with Tesla's data & say that their numbers are WORSE for safety statistics than a human being behind the wheel.

Either way, the cat is out of the bag by nearly a decade at this point & there's not really anything we can do about it. Other manufacturers are using various implementations of FSD (and safer ones, imo, such as Ford's BlueCruise, which also have the benefit of radar & LIDAR sensors). There are still things I don't like about it, like how the vehicle would driver right over potholes & deep manhole covers, so the technology definitely has a long way to go.

Overall however, I was VERY impressed with the latest City FSD update. It put my perspective on City self-driving 5 years ahead of what I had previously tested it at. However, I think it still has a LONGway to go. I don't know if I would personally ever trust it to act as a robotic taxi or to take a child alone to school or soccer practice. But again...VERY impressed with my experience in it. The self-driving capabilities in the city & backgrounds was nothing short of amazing!
 
Last edited:
Reactions: bbhaag and Brovane
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |