Tesla Model Y

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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,332
2,352
136
I cant see normal driving with a yoke. I did two hand driving for about a month after I got my license, so long ago. I can't see learning all over again. If Elon doesn't offer a regular wheel, I'll take my business elsewhere.


Did you see where the guy turns on the wipers making a turn? Crap like that happening is what has me concerned. Don't get me wrong, I like the look, but I see no real point otherwise. Moving the placement of the horn is downright reckless. I see nothing but bad things with that.
The video was plain dumb. Awesome privilege to be able to buy a $100k car without ever testing a new feature with real UX compromises. Heck, she even talked her mom into ordering a new S to replace a Model 3. Then she has the hot take that it's definitely a safer implementation than a traditional steering wheel. The unobstructed view of the center console is great, but that doesn't enhance safety.

As for the yoke, I think we'd be able to drive with it but obviously turns are clumsy. Parallel parking wouldn't be much fun. But that aside, the tiny (capacitive?) buttons were poorly thought out. Don't worry though, Elon will have his AI experts implement automatic turn signaling and horn honking soon.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,517
5,340
136
I cant see normal driving with a yoke. I did two hand driving for about a month after I got my license, so long ago. I can't see learning all over again. If Elon doesn't offer a regular wheel, I'll take my business elsewhere.


Did you see where the guy turns on the wipers making a turn? Crap like that happening is what has me concerned. Don't get me wrong, I like the look, but I see no real point otherwise. Moving the placement of the horn is downright reckless. I see nothing but bad things with that.

The only benefit I see outside of the "cool" factor is to save money in production by streamlining the manufacturing process. The most glaringly dumb change is the horn. I think that is going to cause some accidents because people can't honk in time to prevent a crash via the heads-up noise of a horn or other people from crashing into each other when you see it on the road.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
17,965
854
126
The only benefit I see outside of the "cool" factor is to save money in production by streamlining the manufacturing process. The most glaringly dumb change is the horn. I think that is going to cause some accidents because people can't honk in time to prevent a crash via the heads-up noise of a horn or other people from crashing into each other when you see it on the road.
I agree. Moving the horn is dumb, and will come back to bite Tesla in the as#.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,517
5,340
136
I'd imagine that the manufacturing process for round steering wheels is fairly mature by this point!

50% hardware reduction times say 50k MY's per quarter, subtract a physical horn button, stalks, wiring, electronic interface boards, etc.

I really hope the Cybertruck has the round wheel as an option!
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,332
2,352
136
50% hardware reduction times say 50k MY's per quarter, subtract a physical horn button, stalks, wiring, electronic interface boards, etc.

I really hope the Cybertruck has the round wheel as an option!
I suspect you're right this is as much a business decision as it is an aesthetics one. From a business perspective, they are kind of screwed. If they engineer a regular steering wheel and stalks, then most people are going to choose that. So they will experience minimal enhanced efficiencies of having the yoke's fewer "total parts."

Remember when the $35k Model 3 Standard Range was a thing? Besides hiding it from online ordering, they never actually built any stripped down models. The few who ordered the SR got the SR+ soft-locked to lower specs. Although there are certain things you can't soft-lock such as automatic seats or a glass panoramic roof. Even so, Tesla chose the trade-off of building fewer varieties of cars to keep production humming. This made perfect business sense when they had one factory.

In Canada, they sell a gimped SR model with something like 90 miles of range just to game the EV credits system. I'm sure again this is just the SR+ model hardware with software locks.

Has anyone ever really had this as a "problem" with a traditional steering wheel?
Oops, I mistyped earlier but I meant the instrument cluster. To answer your question, yes it can be a challenge depending on the wheel, the car, and the desired ergonomics of the driver.


IIRC the Tesla yoke is actually kind of wide and it slightly obscures the left edge of the main display, where they've put the UI for the manual forward/reverse shifting.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,400
7,314
136
Oops, I mistyped earlier but I meant the instrument cluster. To answer your question, yes it can be a challenge depending on the wheel, the car, and the desired ergonomics of the driver.
That's what I meant too. I always thought that part of adjusting the wheel and seat though was not just comfort, but comfort at orientations in which you can safely operate the vehicle (ie, see the instrument cluster). But maybe that's just me.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,517
5,340
136
I think that there'll be a lot of things that change with the cybertruck before it actually gets released.

tbh the F-150 Lightning is a pretty amazingly practical machine. Curious to see what modifications they do on the Cybertruck to stay competitive!
 

bigi

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2001
2,484
154
106
Years ago, I remember being right here at AT and WinXP was getting replaced by Vista. The bitching was immense. People kept saying various things like all switching to Linux, hating MSFT, keeping XP until year 3000 or so.

Well, we all know how it's been since then. New things need to be introduced and implemented. I'll take the yoke over start/stop ICE engine crap that most implement to meet EPA.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
which one? the start/stop crap?
It's because all that post was non sensical.

There's no choice between start/stop and a yoke steering wheel. The two things aren't linked, and one doesn't preclude the other.
Also computer operating systems has nothing to do with the subject.

Yoke steering wheels stand or fail on their own merits, they have nothing to do with windows XP or start/stop engines!
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,332
2,352
136
That's what I meant too. I always thought that part of adjusting the wheel and seat though was not just comfort, but comfort at orientations in which you can safely operate the vehicle (ie, see the instrument cluster). But maybe that's just me.
Sure, but ergonomics and preferences are personal so it's hard to design any system that fits all drivers wants. It may be standard on luxury cars to have power-adjustable seats and a highly adjustable steering wheel, but not necessarily the case for economy cars. In the thread I linked, the main complainants were those who like their steering wheel sitting low. This results in the top of the wheel obscuring the top of the gauges, depending on the height of the driver and their sight line to the instrument cluster.

In theory, a larger (and thinner) steering wheel would offer a better viewport of the instrument cluster. But you wouldn't want to strap a school bus style steering wheel into a passenger car just to unblock the gauges. More to the point, gauges are useful but our eyes should be on the road ahead over 99% of the time. I was ridiculing Kim Java's assertion that the Tesla yoke is an inherently safer steering control. It's safer only if you completely ignore turning and the design of the buttons.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
There are people who like the yoke very much, some don't. Normal human reactions.

I think that's why a normal car company would take the smart approach and let the driver decide what they want. Heck, make it so the steering wheel can be swapped while the car is in Park (and cannot be shifted out while the wheel is removed), so someone could swap to a normal wheel for normal driving and a yoke for spirited driving. Heck, you could even add some smarts to adjust the steering profile depending upon what is connected!

Although, in my experience, Tesla doesn't seem to care what drivers want. Everything is based around their idea of driving, which is based upon the idea of automated driving being a thing. Sorry, Elon... just like "fetch", it isn't going to happen. Not talking ever, but not with the current cars in all common scenarios. The cameras are obstructed in medium amounts of rainfall, which isn't going to work well for camera-only automated driving.

Years ago, I remember being right here at AT and WinXP was getting replaced by Vista. The bitching was immense. People kept saying various things like all switching to Linux, hating MSFT, keeping XP until year 3000 or so.

To be fair, Vista had major issues with Microsoft not giving vendors nearly enough time to create proper drivers. I ran Vista at release on my system, and I can assure you that it was not a completely pleasant experience. At one point, after commenting on repeatable hard locks in World of WarCraft (when flying over Skettis villages in Terokkar Forest), I ended up in touch with Nvidia engineers over the issue. I think Microsoft took a correct approach with the WDM, but the drivers were too immature and the users suffered as a result. Of course, all of that cleaned up over time, and Vista was fine... except its early impressions lingered.
 

bigi

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2001
2,484
154
106
It's because all that post was non sensical.

There's no choice between start/stop and a yoke steering wheel. The two things aren't linked, and one doesn't preclude the other.
Also computer operating systems has nothing to do with the subject.

Yoke steering wheels stand or fail on their own merits, they have nothing to do with windows XP or start/stop engines!

I think this was pretty good analogy. You seem to point to a feature you don't like, but this really means nothing in a long run. You seem to point out that the change is so substantial that the change itself renders it bad. Most folks get analogies, and no those don't have to be related, because the point of an analogy is to relate 2 different subjects/things.


I think that's why a normal car company would take the smart approach and let the driver decide what they want. Heck, make it so the steering wheel can be swapped while the car is in Park (and cannot be shifted out while the wheel is removed), so someone could swap to a normal wheel for normal driving and a yoke for spirited driving. Heck, you could even add some smarts to adjust the steering profile depending upon what is connected!

Although, in my experience, Tesla doesn't seem to care what drivers want. Everything is based around their idea of driving, which is based upon the idea of automated driving being a thing. Sorry, Elon... just like "fetch", it isn't going to happen. Not talking ever, but not with the current cars in all common scenarios. The cameras are obstructed in medium amounts of rainfall, which isn't going to work well for camera-only automated driving.

To be fair, Vista had major issues with Microsoft not giving vendors nearly enough time to create proper drivers. I ran Vista at release on my system, and I can assure you that it was not a completely pleasant experience. At one point, after commenting on repeatable hard locks in World of WarCraft (when flying over Skettis villages in Terokkar Forest), I ended up in touch with Nvidia engineers over the issue. I think Microsoft took a correct approach with the WDM, but the drivers were too immature and the users suffered as a result. Of course, all of that cleaned up over time, and Vista was fine... except its early impressions lingered.

I disagree. Tesla seems to care what drivers want very much.

Teslas are sold out for months. Tesla stock has risen 10x. Some people start getting the clue.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Tesla. People keep buying them and stayed in lines to preorder M3. Which other car did people reserve w/out even seeing first?

People in Tesla delivery forums have dropped 65-75K for model Y and complain that they can't get them soon enough. People want their S, X, Cybertruck and will want more.

Most 'arguments' get only created due to terrible lack of knowledge of what Tesla does, and how it is done. All is due to sheer laziness and listening to mob market media which only purpose is to missinform the mob to streer the market their way.

The best part is that this is only the beginning. Covids, chip shortages did not prevent Tesla from getting busy and delivering on the Master Plan 100%.

ALL of other manufactureres do hide behind covid/chip shenningans. Even Toyota is secretely meeting with congress and bribes them to stop EV expansion.

No love for yoke. Fine. Just get your facts straight once for a change. Oppinions don't matter.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
I think this was pretty good analogy. You seem to point to a feature you don't like, but this really means nothing in a long run. You seem to point out that the change is so substantial that the change itself renders it bad. Most folks get analogies, and no those don't have to be related, because the point of an analogy is to relate 2 different subjects/things.
There's nothing analogous in those things though! You can't say "it's like...." when it isn't anything like those things. You have to show why things are analogous.
Stop/start is a flawed way of reducing an ICE vehicles emissions.
A yoke steering wheel is a steering wheel that's been tried a few times before. It has nothing to do with a vehicle being electrically powered or not, it has nothing to do with a vehicle being made by Tesla or not.

It's not the change that makes a yoke steering wheel bad, what makes it bad is that it's purely form over function. It gives nothing apart from looking pretty in press photos but actually makes the act of driving a lot more uncomfortable and a bit more dangerous.
Change isn't necessarily bad or good, you have to look at what's being changed, for what reason and if it brings anything positive.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,332
2,352
136
If someone here wants to double and triple-down on stupid, so be it.

I think that's why a normal car company would take the smart approach and let the driver decide what they want. Heck, make it so the steering wheel can be swapped while the car is in Park (and cannot be shifted out while the wheel is removed), so someone could swap to a normal wheel for normal driving and a yoke for spirited driving. Heck, you could even add some smarts to adjust the steering profile depending upon what is connected!

Although, in my experience, Tesla doesn't seem to care what drivers want. Everything is based around their idea of driving, which is based upon the idea of automated driving being a thing. Sorry, Elon... just like "fetch", it isn't going to happen. Not talking ever, but not with the current cars in all common scenarios. The cameras are obstructed in medium amounts of rainfall, which isn't going to work well for camera-only automated driving.
No, you definitely don't want to design a hot-swappable steering wheel. Total overkill for what's an edge case.

Tesla doesn't have to "care" what drivers want, as long as they execute well. You can go ahead and draw comparisons to Apple under Steve Jobs. Having said that, a RDF can only go so far. If and when they do something dumb, people will have contrary opinions about it.

To be fair, Vista had major issues with Microsoft not giving vendors nearly enough time to create proper drivers. I ran Vista at release on my system, and I can assure you that it was not a completely pleasant experience. At one point, after commenting on repeatable hard locks in World of WarCraft (when flying over Skettis villages in Terokkar Forest), I ended up in touch with Nvidia engineers over the issue. I think Microsoft took a correct approach with the WDM, but the drivers were too immature and the users suffered as a result. Of course, all of that cleaned up over time, and Vista was fine... except its early impressions lingered.
If I was trying to make a point that new tech X was originally controversial, but ultimately successful, I wouldn't pick Windows Vista to make my case. It's widely considered the worst release since WinMe. Vista had a troubled development cycle, and was promptly replaced by Windows 7 just two years later. Don't forget that end-user OS upgrades were relatively niche at the time compared to ubiquitous mobile OS upgrades of today. So the primary way of getting Windows Vista is from the purchase of a new PC. Corporate buyers hated Vista so much that Microsoft introduced "downgrade rights" to boost lackluster PC sales.
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
I think this was pretty good analogy. You seem to point to a feature you don't like, but this really means nothing in a long run. You seem to point out that the change is so substantial that the change itself renders it bad. Most folks get analogies, and no those don't have to be related, because the point of an analogy is to relate 2 different subjects/things.




I disagree. Tesla seems to care what drivers want very much.

Teslas are sold out for months. Tesla stock has risen 10x. Some people start getting the clue.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Tesla. People keep buying them and stayed in lines to preorder M3. Which other car did people reserve w/out even seeing first?

People in Tesla delivery forums have dropped 65-75K for model Y and complain that they can't get them soon enough. People want their S, X, Cybertruck and will want more.

Most 'arguments' get only created due to terrible lack of knowledge of what Tesla does, and how it is done. All is due to sheer laziness and listening to mob market media which only purpose is to missinform the mob to streer the market their way.

The best part is that this is only the beginning. Covids, chip shortages did not prevent Tesla from getting busy and delivering on the Master Plan 100%.

ALL of other manufactureres do hide behind covid/chip shenningans. Even Toyota is secretely meeting with congress and bribes them to stop EV expansion.

No love for yoke. Fine. Just get your facts straight once for a change. Oppinions don't matter.

Don’t go from being a shill to a liar, Tesla is facing the same supply chain issues that other manufacturers are. Which is why their shareholder report mentions along with of course their FAILURE to execute, which is pushing back the Cybertruck AGAIN as well as the Semi. Again, citing supply chain issues.

“We believe we remain on track to build our first Model Y vehicles in Berlin and Austin in 2021. The pace of the respective production ramps will be influenced by the successful introduction of many new product and manufacturing technologies, ongoing supply-chain-related challenges and regional permitting.

To better focus on these factories, and due to the limited availability of battery cells and global supply chain challenges, we have shifted the launch of the Semi truck program to 2022. We are also making progress on the industrialization of Cybertruck, which is currently planned for Austin production subsequent to Model Y.”

As for sales figures? Well those numbers have always spoken for themselves. It’s easy to have wait times when you don’t make anything. They couldn’t even make 500,00 cars across 3 models last year. Toyota sold 430,00 RAV4 vehicles alone in 2020. BMW sold 145,000 M series cars alone last year. Just BMW. Just M series. In a pandemic. 2.3M vehicles if you want to count their whole range. The only manufacturer to sell fewer US cars than Tesla was Mazda. Do you believe that if Tesla could manufacture and sell 8-10 million units per year like a normal manufacture they would still have long wait times? The numbers say no. Even if they converted all their holds into purchases, they would barely cover half a year of production of a single major manufacturer.

It’s all about perspective. Tesla is doing fantastic. Ford reserved 200,000 Broncos, sight unseen. People are waiting over a year for them, happily. Over 80,000 on the Maverick who’s announcement is two months old and no one but a few reviewers have seen or driven. This sight unseen thing? Nothing new, especially at such small numbers. You seem to lack perspective on what the rest of the market wants and are solely focused on the relatively few sales generated by all electric vehicles.

What Tesla needs to do is make a sub 30K truck that is F-150 size or smaller and make a car that new and loaded with all the options is sub 25K. Then regular commuters could join the Tesla crowd.
 

bigi

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2001
2,484
154
106
@heymrdj

Well, discussion is over. Name calling brats seat by the kids table.
And you quote something you still don't get.
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Mach-E has now sold 12,000+ units in 6 months in the U.S., with numbers of about 41,000 units with Europe included. Granted, Ford sold 110,000 vehicles in the US alone just in June, easily out shadowing the Mach-E sales as well as all of Tesla, as it took Tesla an entire quarter just to move 200,000 units globally to Ford's 475,000 vehicles globally in June alone. Mach-E continues to be supply constrained with unit turn around time only at 11 days and deliveries running 16-28 weeks. It's estimated that Ford still has 40,000+ US reservation units to build.

 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
No love for yoke. Fine. Just get your facts straight once for a change. Oppinions don't matter.

It's a bit awkward that you try to treat my remarks as simply some sort of mob mentality because I own and have been driving a Tesla for almost three years now. My opinions are based upon having actually used the car over that time. I've gone through all the different updates and changes, and I've seen what Tesla appears to prioritize and what they ignore. Yes, it's still my opinion because it's based upon what I care about in a car, and I won't be silly enough to suggest that it applies to everyone.

In regard to Tesla's sales, I think that it's usually one of two things: interest in EVs and Tesla's brand recognition. The former is pretty self-explanatory, and it doesn't help that Tesla is arguably ahead of most. The latter reminds me a lot of Apple where they would sell based upon prestige and the idea of owning an Apple product. Although, along those lines, it's rather awkward when someone asks me how I like my car, and I either have to sort of hand-wave ("Oh, it's okay..."), or go into a long tirade about how much I don't like it. Some aspects are rather surprising to some... especially when I remark that you can't take a ~130-mile round trip in the car on a full charge.

Part of my annoyance also comes from how my Tesla seems like my least reliable car yet. I had a lot of issues early on with the vision system failing, and they ended up replacing my left fender camera twice and the right fender camera once. You'd probably be surprised at how many aspects are tied to the vision system too. There are some obvious ones like auto-wipers (really makes the lack of a physical control not so great), but it also won't show speed limit signs... even though they're also based on map data. Right now, I've been dealing with a random issue where my charge port door will not open when I press the icon on the screen. The car definitely goes through the routine as the charge window pops up, but the door either partly opens or doesn't open at all.

No, you definitely don't want to design a hot-swappable steering wheel. Total overkill for what's an edge case.

I agree that it's overkill. (That hasn't stopped Tesla in the past. ) It's simply an idea of a method if you want to provide users --perhaps those in the fancier Model S variants -- different use case options. Personally, I'd rather see the option to choose during the build process.

If I was trying to make a point that new tech X was originally controversial, but ultimately successful, I wouldn't pick Windows Vista to make my case. It's widely considered the worst release since WinMe. Vista had a troubled development cycle, and was promptly replaced by Windows 7 just two years later. Don't forget that end-user OS upgrades were relatively niche at the time compared to ubiquitous mobile OS upgrades of today. So the primary way of getting Windows Vista is from the purchase of a new PC. Corporate buyers hated Vista so much that Microsoft introduced "downgrade rights" to boost lackluster PC sales.

Vista was eventually straightened out toward the end of its life cycle. What you're talking about is another one of the issues that Vista faced where OEMs were equipping their machines based upon minimum specifications for Windows XP, and as a result, Vista's more resource-heavy UI and higher number of services caused issues. Of course, I didn't have that problem because I had a custom built PC, which had enough memory and a dedicated GPU. The point that I was getting at was that it didn't matter that Vista was technically fine by its end, but that its public opinion was tarnished. Windows 7 was Vista with an updated UI and some under-the-hood changes, and all the changes that caused problems with Vista's launch were still present in Windows 7.
 
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