Tesla unveils glass solar roof tiles & all-day backup battery

[Kaido]

https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/tesla-unveils-its-solar-roof-and-powerwall-2/

Dang! Two new product offerings:

• Solar singles (Summer 2017)
• Powerwall v2 (January 2017)

 

[Kaido]

More info:

https://www.tesla.com/energy/

Glass tiles:

https://www.tesla.com/solar

• 4 styles available (Tuscan, Slate, Textured, Smooth) so your house doesn't look weird; opaque from street angle, but transparent to the sun
• Lower cost than a traditional roof when combined with projected utility bill savings (exact pricing not specified)
  
• Tiles will be sold directly to customers
  
• Shipping starts in summer 2017
• The tiles are manufactured with tempered glass: "We expect this to have two or three times the longevity of asphalt. It's really never going to wear out. It's got a quasi-infinite lifetime. It's made of quartz". So as shingles, they will last 2-3x as long as regular asphalt shingles.
  
• 98% as efficient as normal panels (2% loss compared to installing solar panels)

I'm curious about a couple things. First, Elon said they would basically last forever. Last time I checked, regular solar panels had a full life of about 8 years before they started dropping in output. So does that mean the tile will last forever, but the output will still diminish over time?

Second, I'm curious about the safety aspect of the roofing. I am a big fan of Gerard Roofing, which sells stone-coated steel shingles. They include an owner lifetime warranty (with a 50-year transfer warranty), which includes 120mph wind warranty, 2.5" hail stone warranthy, class "A" fire warranty, and a guarantee not to rot, crack, warp, or break. It also has a dry under-deck roofing system (typically with shingles, you need a moisture barrier underneath like tar paper, which cracks over time & requires changing out), plus only weighs 1.5 pounds per square foot (lightweight is good if you live in an earthquake zone, plus heavier options like concrete or heavy clay tile can be up to ~15 pounds per square foot).

Tuscan glass tile:

Slate glass tile:

Textured glass tile:

Smooth glass tile:

PowerWall V2:

• Cost is $5,500 each, plus installation starting at $1,000 (estimated price is $6,500 installed)
• Available to order now ($500 deposit required for each Powerwall)
  
• Installations begin in January 2017
• Includes a built-in power inverter (which also works directly with the solar roof tiles to convert sunlight into electricity)
• Each Powerwall has a 14 kWh lithium-ion battery pack (over double the capacity of the previous-gen packs)
• Power output is 5 kW continuous, 7 kW peak
• Two Powerwalls can power a four-bedroom house with lights, fridge, and other appliances for an entire day
  
• Stackable (ex. you can link 5 units together on a large home to store 70 kWh)
• Compact design: dimensions are 1150 mm x 755 mm x 155 mm (45.3 in x 29.7 in x 6.1 in) & weight is 122 kg (269 lbs)
• Mounting options: indoors or outdoors & wall or floor
• Round Trip Efficiency: 89% for AC Powerwall, 91.8% for DC Powerwall
  
• Operating Temperature Range: –20°C to 50°C (–4°F to 122°F)
  
• Warranty: Unlimited cycles for up to 10 years

I'm interested in getting more info on the built-in inverter. That's a pretty neat concept, especially since you can link them together. I'd assume they are grid-tied & are grid-chargeable, and I'd also assume that when paired with solar shingles, once they are done charging, you can sell your unused electricity back to the local power company. I am curious to know if their inverter system plays nice with other systems. For example, my favorite ATS is the Synaps6 from Milbank, which can integrate the grid, solar, batteries, residential wind power, a generator, etc. & has a ton of smarts and communication systems built-in...wonder if that would play nice with Tesla's integration systems.

 

[shabby]

I'm curious about a couple things. First, Elon said they would basically last forever. Last time I checked, regular solar panels had a full life of about 8 years before they started dropping in output. So does that mean the tile will last forever, but the output will still diminish over time?

Im sure his lawyers combed over every word before it came out of his mouth, he said the tile will last "forever" not the solar panel inside it.
Still its a better alternative to solar panels, those things devalue the property and look like ass, these on the other hand look like premium shingles. Lets hope others copy and it brings the prices down.

 

[mxnerd]

Tesla's solar roof is cool, but it has a competitor.

http://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2016/10/31/13469846/tesla-solar-roof-solpad-solarwindow7

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Im sure his lawyers combed over every word before it came out of his mouth, he said the tile will last "forever" not the solar panel inside it.
Still its a better alternative to solar panels, those things devalue the property and look like ass, these on the other hand look like premium shingles. Lets hope others copy and it brings the prices down.

This is correct, I read somewhere else from Tesla that the glass is a quartz(?) that has an infinate lifespan but the energy output will be 20-30 years. Also they mostly focused on metal and terracotta roofs which cost signifigantly more than a shingle roof, like 30-70k. However if its in the 40k range it isn't a bad deal for a new roof and solar combo.

 

[Kaido]

This is correct, I read somewhere else from Tesla that the glass is a quartz(?) that has an infinate lifespan but the energy output will be 20-30 years. Also they mostly focused on metal and terracotta roofs which cost signifigantly more than a shingle roof, like 30-70k. However if its in the 40k range it isn't a bad deal for a new roof and solar combo.

Solar has gotten pretty amazing lately. Apparently modern panels can provide a 92% output after 20 years of operation:

http://www.engineering.com/Electron...75/What-Is-the-Lifespan-of-a-Solar-Panel.aspx

Some panels come with 25 to 30-year warranties, as well:

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/10/19/how-long-will-solar-panels-last/

The prices are amazing these days, too...Costco has been selling a 5,830-watt kit for $13k for awhile now: (generates between "310kWh and 723kWhh per month")

http://www.costco.com/Grape-Solar-5830-Watt-Grid-Tied-Solar-Kit.product.100242525.html

Plenty of mounting options, like this ground kit with locally-sourced steel pipes:

http://www.ironridge.com/ground-based-mounting/overview

I think my ideal setup would be a Milbanks Synaps6 power management system with a solar panel kit, a couple Powerwalls, and a gas line-fed whole-house generator (something like a Generac quietsource model). Cover all the bases!

 

[Kaido]

Another interesting & growing segment is atmospheric water generators. Basically jumbo dehumidifiers (indoor or outdoor models available) with filters to make the water potable:

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-water/the-low-down-on-home-water-makers-and-7-to-choose-from.html

You can even power them off solar:

https://suntowater.com/residential-atmospheric-water-generator

They make indoor water dispensers too:

http://www.gr8water.net/products/atmospheric-water-generators

Technology is getting pretty slick...clean water from the air, zero-maintenance power from solar panels stored in batteries, etc. With a good 4G router & cell phones, you can have a line-free home these days & not really miss out on anything (unless you like natural gas for cooking or whatever, but you could always get a tank for that).

 

[Ken g6]

Tesla's solar roof is cool, but it has a competitor.

http://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2016/10/31/13469846/tesla-solar-roof-solpad-solarwindow7

Wow! I have been asking for at least part of what the SolPad is for literally years!

Integrating SolPad into your home is as easy as plugging SolPad into one of your home’s outdoor outlets.

And it's kind of an emergency generator too!

Well, at least I hope it's all that...

SunCulture Solar is selecting its manufacturing partners for SolPad and SolPad Home, and will bring SolPad to market in the second half of 2017. The full product release timeline and pricing will be available once manufacturing plans are finalized.

For now I guess it's vaporware.

 

[soulcougher73]

Solar shingles been around a while actually. But good to see a bigger name getting in on it. I think its the future.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Interesting idea, though I still find regular solar panels mounted in the most optimal part of the roof is better. But this could be good in more "autocratic" places such as HOAs that don't allow solar panels. I wonder how these are interconnected as well. Solar cells typically need to be in series groups to provide a certain VOC then several matching groups for the whole system are paralleled together. Seems to me it would be hard to plan this for shingles.

These are also all hard materials that are going to be harder to cut, and obviously you don't want to cut the solar cell itself. So not sure how it works when you get to edges of say a cottage style roof, typically shingles are bended over to the other side or in some cases cut. But don't think these are bendable.

Either way if they can make this work it's a really neat project. The idea behind this is that if you're spending money to reshingle your house anyway then why not spend a bit more and do solar shingles.

I've been toying with solar for a while myself I don't have much roof room though which will limit me. Most of the roof is going to have shadows from trees etc, there's only one section that is viable. I need to go up and measure but I figure I can put a couple kw. Not enough to go off grid but enough to at least cover some "always on" loads like my servers and lights. Maybe even fridge/freezer.

 

[paperfist]

Finally the future is here!

Now will I live long enough to afford it

 

[paperfist]

Interesting idea, though I still find regular solar panels mounted in the most optimal part of the roof is better. But this could be good in more "autocratic" places such as HOAs that don't allow solar panels. I wonder how these are interconnected as well. Solar cells typically need to be in series groups to provide a certain VOC then several matching groups for the whole system are paralleled together. Seems to me it would be hard to plan this for shingles.

These are also all hard materials that are going to be harder to cut, and obviously you don't want to cut the solar cell itself. So not sure how it works when you get to edges of say a cottage style roof, typically shingles are bended over to the other side or in some cases cut. But don't think these are bendable.

Either way if they can make this work it's a really neat project. The idea behind this is that if you're spending money to reshingle your house anyway then why not spend a bit more and do solar shingles.

I've been toying with solar for a while myself I don't have much roof room though which will limit me. Most of the roof is going to have shadows from trees etc, there's only one section that is viable. I need to go up and measure but I figure I can put a couple kw. Not enough to go off grid but enough to at least cover some "always on" loads like my servers and lights. Maybe even fridge/freezer.

I imagine that they would have the same material without the solar embedded so you can cut and fit as needed.

 

[Brovane]

Interesting idea, though I still find regular solar panels mounted in the most optimal part of the roof is better.

Not all the tiles/shingles etc. would be solar. Only the tiles in the areas of the roof that would make sense to generate power will be solar panels.

 

[bigi]

I watched this with wife. We'll get it for sure once our roof needs to be changed.

The only thing they did not mention is weight. It'd be really good to know the weight of each type per square foot.

 

[Kaido]

Tesla's sleek solar panels are easier to install on your roof:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/09/tesla-sleek-solar-panel-for-existing-roofs/

Tesla's home energy efforts might be centered around its solar roofs, but it knows that not everyone can (or wants to) rip up their roof just to bring renewable energy to their home. To that end, the company is offering a first glimpse at Panasonic-made solar panels that would go on top of your existing roof. Unlike many aftermarket options, this would be relatively slick and unintrusive -- the panels have "integrated front skirts and no visible mounting hardware." While it'll be patently obvious that you have solar energy on your roof, it shouldn't be the eyesore you sometimes get with conventional designs.

The company is taking requests for custom price quotes right now, but it tells Electrek that production for the 325W modules should start sometime in the summer. You'll have to be patient if you're determined to escape the conventional power grid. However, this is definitely not a secondary project for Tesla. The firm says that it'll use these panels for all new residential projects (outside of tiles), so you're really looking at the future of Tesla's mainstream energy tech.

 

[Kaido]

The prices are amazing these days, too...Costco has been selling a 5,830-watt kit for $13k for awhile now: (generates between "310kWh and 723kWhh per month")

http://www.costco.com/Grape-Solar-5830-Watt-Grid-Tied-Solar-Kit.product.100242525.html

The competition is helping the prices drop a TON. In the 6 months since I linked to the Grape Solar kit from Costco, it has dropped $3,000. You can now buy the 5,830-watt Grape Solar system (panels + mounting hardware + inverter) for $10k.

 

[Kaido]

On a tangent, I'm installing a TED Pro Home energy monitoring system next week so I can start getting realtime data about how much power I'm using:

http://www.theenergydetective.com/tedprohome.html

I got the full set with the Spyders so I can monitor every single circuit in my home. My original goal was to see how much power I'm actually using so I can get a whole-house generator priced out, but I'm also curious to see what my numbers are for solar & battery purposes. I converted the whole place over to LED lighting (inside & out) and have replaced just about every appliance with newer Energy Star-rated models as they've broken. Speaking of which, my ten-year-old water heater just started leaking this weekend & that's my last large appliance that I haven't replaced due to failure, so those will all be up-to-date as well, so I'll have a pretty good idea about what my equipment-efficient home draws for energy.

 

[Exterous]

On a tangent, I'm installing a TED Pro Home energy monitoring system next week so I can start getting realtime data about how much power I'm using:

http://www.theenergydetective.com/tedprohome.html

I got the full set with the Spyders so I can monitor every single circuit in my home. My original goal was to see how much power I'm actually using so I can get a whole-house generator priced out, but I'm also curious to see what my numbers are for solar & battery purposes. I converted the whole place over to LED lighting (inside & out) and have replaced just about every appliance with newer Energy Star-rated models as they've broken. Speaking of which, my ten-year-old water heater just started leaking this weekend & that's my last large appliance that I haven't replaced due to failure, so those will all be up-to-date as well, so I'll have a pretty good idea about what my equipment-efficient home draws for energy.

You should post what you find out and how you like the TED. I know I would be interested in your electricity usage breakdown and I suspect others would be too

 

[Kaido]

You should post what you find out and how you like the TED. I know I would be interested in your electricity usage breakdown and I suspect others would be too

So I broke the installation into 2 parts:

1. Initial setup & testing
2. Final setup & labeling

I got it thrown in today just to make sure everything worked & to build a final setup checklist. Next I need to label my breaker panel, setup the Spyder labeling, input my utility bill specs, etc. But it works great, super easy to install & setup. I don't have my rates etc. in yet, but here's a screenshot from earlier:

I'm just running around turning things on & off right now and seeing the meter jump in (nearly) realtime (there's a slight lag, but we're talking >5 seconds). Very very cool stuff. This has been a piece of my home automation puzzle I've been wanting to complete for some time now. Looked at a variety of power data recorders & felt this was the best solution for my needs. Very interested to see my data usage over the next month (the onboard system can collect 10 years of data FYI).

 

[Aikouka]

On a tangent, I'm installing a TED Pro Home energy monitoring system next week so I can start getting realtime data about how much power I'm using:

http://www.theenergydetective.com/tedprohome.html

Hm, if you weren't planning on getting the spyders, it seems like an overpriced Aeotec. I also saw this thing called Sense, which says it can discern different items based upon their usage.

 

[Kaido]

Hm, if you weren't planning on getting the spyders, it seems like an overpriced Aeotec. I also saw this thing called Sense, which says it can discern different items based upon their usage.

I went with a full suite of Spyders on my install, because I am a nerd The Aeotec is really nice for basic monitoring - works with IRIS, STv2, Vera, etc. As far as I can tell, Sense is complete junk - great in theory, but after watching a ton of Youtube videos, I wasn't sold on it. There are some others out there as well, but the TED system was pretty straightforward...mains & circuits, onboard 10-year recorder, built-in web interface, free online portal, exportable data, standalone system (no hub required), etc.

An energy monitor is kind of like a smarthome hub...it's nice to have, but not essential. You already get your power bill from your local power company, so you know what you're using overall & what your spending is. You can monitor the mains cheaper with something like an Aeotec unit. Having the circuits monitored gives you more detailed information, which can give you the choice of turning devices off (say, for vampire draw) or replacing them completely to save money over time. So it's not like you get a ton of value out of them, they're a bit more for geeking out on monitoring than anything.

I primarily got mine to see what my usage & spikes were for buying a whole-house generator. We have more power issues where I live now than any other place that I've lived, and when our power goes down from a storm or whatever, we are usually down for at least a week. My local installer generically quoted me $16k installed for a whole-house generator, which sounded absolutely nuts to me, so I opted to pick up a TED rig to see what I really use. Over the last couple of years, I have replaced literally every major appliance as they have broken (dishwasher, hot water heater, A/C, furnace, you name it...everything was pretty ancient, some stuff dating back to the 80's, so it was a big change to go to energy-efficient stuff!), as well as upgraded to flat-screen LED TV's, LED bulbs, a basic smarthouse system (Wink), etc., and I've been very curious to see what the energy requirements of the whole place is throughout the course of a full day.

So far I'm averaging about 800 to 1000 watts normally (fridge, 2 deep freezers, electric hot water heater, etc.); it's fun seeing all of the spikes from turning on the heat or the A/C, the oven, etc. Turning on my Instant Pot, for example, shows a spike of 1000 watts as soon as it starts to pressurize. Before all I had was a Kill-a-watt, so I couldn't effectively measure everything on an ongoing basis or do any kind of historical data recording. So part of my project is to see what my house is using with modern equipment like Energy Star appliances & LED lighting, and part of it is to figure out what I'll need for solar & batteries in the future if I ever am able to build a custom home. We'll be wiring up my buddy's house next, which has mini-split ductless HVAC & a 240V EV charger; I'm really curious to see what his numbers are as well. When combined with things like ICF blocks, low-E windows, etc., you can build a pretty low-energy house...work in some Tesla solar shingles & batteries into your mortgage & you could be cruising by with a zero-dollar electricity bill if you play your cards right!

 

[Aikouka]

My local installer generically quoted me $16k installed for a whole-house generator, which sounded absolutely nuts to me, so I opted to pick up a TED rig to see what I really use. Over the last couple of years, I have replaced literally every major appliance as they have broken (dishwasher, hot water heater, A/C, furnace, you name it...everything was pretty ancient, some stuff dating back to the 80's, so it was a big change to go to energy-efficient stuff!), as well as upgraded to flat-screen LED TV's, LED bulbs, a basic smarthouse system (Wink), etc., and I've been very curious to see what the energy requirements of the whole place is throughout the course of a full day.

What unit did they quote for you? When I was looking them up, it was about $4-5k for a unit to meet my capacity, and I wouldn't expect much more than about $3k to install it given the available location's proximity to my gas line. In my case, the majority of the work would end up being electrical.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yikes yeah 16k for a whole house generator seems insane. If you go with a propane model Generac the entire job could be DIY and probably cost like 5-6k. Well might have to call the Hydro company so you can install a cut off before the panel. Then you put the transfer switch between the cut off and the panel. Generator goes to the alternate side of transfer switch. At least that's how I would do it. You can feed hydro straight into the transfer switch but I'd prefer a separate cut off. That allows you to be able to do any work in the transfer switch with hydro off.

 

[Kaido]

What unit did they quote for you? When I was looking them up, it was about $4-5k for a unit to meet my capacity, and I wouldn't expect much more than about $3k to install it given the available location's proximity to my gas line. In my case, the majority of the work would end up being electrical.

Yikes yeah 16k for a whole house generator seems insane. If you go with a propane model Generac the entire job could be DIY and probably cost like 5-6k. Well might have to call the Hydro company so you can install a cut off before the panel. Then you put the transfer switch between the cut off and the panel. Generator goes to the alternate side of transfer switch. At least that's how I would do it. You can feed hydro straight into the transfer switch but I'd prefer a separate cut off. That allows you to be able to do any work in the transfer switch with hydro off.

Mine would be natural gas with an ATS, most likely a Generac model. I have limitations on what I can install where I live currently (it's not a full HOA & it's not awful, but it is annoying...everything has to be "approved" first). Big part of the reason I'd like to build at some point...solar shingles, batteries, etc.

I'm tracking the power usage for the next month extensively so I can see the spikes, averages, peaks, and so on. We lose power more here than anywhere I've lived, and when it goes down during a storm, it's often a week (or two) before it comes back up. So for now, I'm studying up on the electrical usage side of things & doing my data collection to see what the best option is. I was thinking a few grand, not in the tens of thousands lol.

 

[herm0016]

speaking of solpad.

microinverters have been a thing for a while.

Something you can reverse plug into an outlet is dangerous and stupid. It should never get a UL or CE rating. see the thread about doing it with a generator. also, you would need to daisy chain a lot of those panels to power a house.

we have 4500 watts peak and we generate enough to offset our house about 9 months per year grid tie and net metered.

The Ted system looks cool. Can i measure and account for the solar generation separately from the grid current? you cant measure direction with the transformers....
grid------1----\
inverter--2-- \meter -3--- house

2 - 3 should equal what we are getting from the grid and you would have to code in something along the lines of if 3 is greater than 2 3-2= electicty from the grid and if 2 is greater than 3 the difference is electricity going back to the grid......