Testostrone Gel-Anyone used?

[Sust]

It's not much different in cost to a normal glucose/fasting test.

Cost me nothing. The Dr. visit was $100 as he doesn't take insurance.

The meds are $395 for ten weeks.

That's impressive. The article stated that the most reliable testosterone test was some kind of gas chromatography procedure and I cant imagine that being cheap on the same level of a serum glucose test, but good to know that lab companies might not inhale money for these tests. Or did I miss the part where your insurance covered it?

~$160/month... yep, looks like will need decent money in order to afford this kind of treatment.

 

[SilthDraeth]

~$160/month... yep, looks like will need decent money in order to afford this kind of treatment.

For me, insurance paid for the test, and I have to pay for the meds, because my levels aren't below the "normal range" even though they at the low end.

Anyways, update, payed for my med today, was $63 and change for a month supply.

Doc wants to test my levels again in two months so will let the OP know anyways what my results where, or I can post results in this thread.

 

[alkemyst]

That's impressive. The article stated that the most reliable testosterone test was some kind of gas chromatography procedure and I cant imagine that being cheap on the same level of a serum glucose test, but good to know that lab companies might not inhale money for these tests. Or did I miss the part where your insurance covered it?

~$160/month... yep, looks like will need decent money in order to afford this kind of treatment.

Most people don't need 'most reliable', the blood work is usually covered at least with your annual exam if not at anytime.

 

[Artista]

The surprising part to me and something that the scientific community is finding out is that testosterone play's a much bigger role in a mans body that what was thought a few years back. Seems a low level can cause depression, heart problems, etc etc.

My insurance pays for the testosterone and would even pay for the estrogen blocker. The physician has to show that he tried the first line in the modern "standard of care" or that there is a medical need for it. I personally want to try the estrogen blocker first which will in my opinion be better. That way perhaps my body will balance itself out without external hormones.

I have also thought of trying to see a chinese medicine doctor which along with accupuncture and herbs can try and help the body balance itself out.

If not I will bite the bullet and do what I have to do. (use externally supplied hormones)

 

[alkemyst]

An estrogen blocker will not correct a low testosterone issue.

HCG can boost testosterone from those leery of taking it. This is the 'miracle' weight loss drug being sold in drop form.

 

[Artista]

An estrogen blocker will not correct a low testosterone issue.

HCG can boost testosterone from those leery of taking it. This is the 'miracle' weight loss drug being sold in drop form.

I have to read more on this. I understood that your body can take the same precursor materials (DHEA, etc) and convert them to either testosterone or other hormones including estrogen.

My doctor said that if I take DHEA my body will convert it to estrogen or testosterone. So given that chain of thought I figured that perhaps as my physician said my body is making estrogen/estrodial instead of testosterone.

Then again if it is "primary testicular dysfuncition" in the end I may just have to take the external hormones. :\

I say fight nature and stay stong.

 

[alkemyst]

I got my meds 10 mins ago. 10ML Testosterone Cyp., 4ML Nandrolone Decanoate (deca), 10,000IU Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), 10 caps of Anastrozole. 10 3cc 23g syringes 1.5", 20 1/2CC 31g 5/16" syringes.

The meds were $395. I have a call in about the HCG as it says it's good for only 45 days once reconstituted. I need at least 63 days since I am on a 10 week cycle.

 

[Rudee]

Once you start, you have to stay on it, because when you stop - poof! Your natural t-levels have decreased significantly and your testicles shrink to the size of grapes.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

Once you start, you have to stay on it, because when you stop - poof! Your natural t-levels have decreased significantly and your testicles shrink to the size of grapes.

It's the other way around.

 

[alkemyst]

HCG prevents the shrinkage

 

[Sust]

I got my meds 10 mins ago. 10ML Testosterone Cyp., 4ML Nandrolone Decanoate (deca), 10,000IU Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), 10 caps of Anastrozole. 10 3cc 23g syringes 1.5", 20 1/2CC 31g 5/16" syringes.

The meds were $395. I have a call in about the HCG as it says it's good for only 45 days once reconstituted. I need at least 63 days since I am on a 10 week cycle.

Jeebus... do you tell your doc about the above and what does he/she have to say about it?
This is an interesting refresher on steroidogenesis for me. Correct me if I'm wrong here:
If my endocrine physiology serves me right, the exogenous testosterone you're giving yourself is negatively feeding back on your hypothalamus causing it to downregulate GnRH release into your pituitary which consequently downregulates LH/FSH release who then will stimulate less of leydig(responsible for testosterone production) and sertoli(responsible for sperm production) cells in your testicles. All of this in turn if allowed to escalate will eventually shut down natural testosterone production as your body tries to maintain its pre-programmed homeostatic balance in the face of increasing exogenous testosterone.

 

[alkemyst]

The HCG is fine. Most are going the 60 days fine instead of having to buy a second series of it. My doc was unavailable this afternoon and I wanted to start. I got my answer though.

That appears to be a total cut and paste above.

No need to get scientific with this. Taking testosterone will indeed raise your blood levels and when this happens your body starts producing less or possibily none. When that happens your nuts can atrophy.

HCG tells your body to keep producing testosterone anyway, eliminating that side effect. HCG also has a lot of other good affects especially on fat loss.

The Deca I am taking is a good analbolic, but also great for joint recovery. I just got out of a shoulder surgery so elected to include it.

The e-blocker is to combat any estrogen that may come about as part of this.

Again all the levels you are taking in a HRT/TRT program are minor compared to 'roid heads.

I am taking 200mg of test a week. Many that abuse do like 500-700mg a week and using the ethanate product which is about two time as strong as T200. Then there are those that go much higher than that.

The kind of program HRT/TRT is, mimics where you body should be at; not way beyond it. If everything is kept in balance you function no different than when you were in your prime.

 

[Artista]

alkemyst, do you go to life extension doctor or one of those fancy clinics? PM me if you wish about this. If I could get my insurance to pay some of this I would get on board for a more inclusive anti-aging program. Seem's what you do is more balanced than just taking the testosterone gel. Just taking the gel will cause the testes to shrink and I do not want that!

Going to have to rethink my approach and find a doctor to get on board with this.

Seems at least taking the HCG will keep the family jewels from turning into peanuts! lol

Oh, can you get hcg without a Rx?

 

[alkemyst]

It's not life extension or any 'boutique' place. Normal doctor. I didn't put it through my insurance at all except the blood test. They will probably cover the testosterone for me, but nothing else.

You need a script for all this if you want it legally. No one says you have to go through insurance.

My doctor gets a discount so I order through them and they use Hoye's Pharmacy to fill it. The Test/HCG/Amitrix for 10 weeks is $300, adding in the Deca was $95. The Deca would last 20 weeks

 

[Sust]

The HCG is fine. Most are going the 60 days fine instead of having to buy a second series of it. My doc was unavailable this afternoon and I wanted to start. I got my answer though.

That appears to be a total cut and paste above.

No need to get scientific with this. Taking testosterone will indeed raise your blood levels and when this happens your body starts producing less or possibily none. When that happens your nuts can atrophy.

HCG tells your body to keep producing testosterone anyway, eliminating that side effect. HCG also has a lot of other good affects especially on fat loss.

The Deca I am taking is a good analbolic, but also great for joint recovery. I just got out of a shoulder surgery so elected to include it.

The e-blocker is to combat any estrogen that may come about as part of this.

Again all the levels you are taking in a HRT/TRT program are minor compared to 'roid heads.

I am taking 200mg of test a week. Many that abuse do like 500-700mg a week and using the ethanate product which is about two time as strong as T200. Then there are those that go much higher than that.

The kind of program HRT/TRT is, mimics where you body should be at; not way beyond it. If everything is kept in balance you function no different than when you were in your prime.

Aw shucks Not every day that your thought process gets accused of plagiarism. You're welcome on the links though. Hope they were educational.
Wouldve put in actual journal articles, but most dont care to read the actual articles unless they're interested in the nuts/bolts.

And you can do what you want but IMO, getting scientific is very important because the decision to fiddle with your body on any level(not just performance enhancement) should come with a well thought out understanding of what/where the substances are doing in target area and rest of body plus whether there's been longitudinal study/followup to back up its safety. For me, the devil's in the details and I like the learnin.

So my knowledge of HCG outside of pregnant females is shoddy, but in my reading of the literature it seems that they use it to treat males with true hypogonadism.

Jeebus, these guys volunteered to get their gonads stabbed with a needle for science.

This article was pretty interesting in that they found that HCG (which doesnt simulate FSH in testicular sertoli cells) was able to sustain sperm production albeit at a reduced rate over time. Too bad they didnt follow longer because it would have been interesting to see how long the HCG alone could have sustained the sperm producing parts making up testicular volume and it would have helped clinicians decide how long they could go without supplementing GnRH or FSH in these patients.

This article was kind of interesting too in that authors are linking chronic anabolic steroid administration to worsening cardiac function. But their relatively small sample size was on a whopper dose of testosterone(weekly doses of 675mg!) over a cumulative 400+ weeks of their lives. However some of their people were using GH also which could definitely confound their results. Safety still sounds kinda dicey, but then again so is driving on the highway or having a gun in the house.

Still trying to wrap my brain around how this stuff can be addictive...

Dunno... tough call esp with no articles covering long term longitudinal followup. Good luck, gentlemen.

 

[Artista]

Personally I will use low levels of drugs to bring myself to the "normal" range. I do not want to use anywhere near the levels of a body builder or anything like that.

I also do detox type stuff, eat right, take anti-oxidants and other anti-aging/healthy promoting supplements. All legal, all with some scientific studies to show some benefit.

 

[alkemyst]

Aw shucks Not every day that your thought process gets accused of plagiarism. You're welcome on the links though. Hope they were educational.
Wouldve put in actual journal articles, but most dont care to read the actual articles unless they're interested in the nuts/bolts.

And you can do what you want but IMO, getting scientific is very important because the decision to fiddle with your body on any level(not just performance enhancement) should come with a well thought out understanding of what/where the substances are doing in target area and rest of body plus whether there's been longitudinal study/followup to back up its safety. For me, the devil's in the details and I like the learnin.

So my knowledge of HCG outside of pregnant females is shoddy, but in my reading of the literature it seems that they use it to treat males with true hypogonadism.

Jeebus, these guys volunteered to get their gonads stabbed with a needle for science.

This article was pretty interesting in that they found that HCG (which doesnt simulate FSH in testicular sertoli cells) was able to sustain sperm production albeit at a reduced rate over time. Too bad they didnt follow longer because it would have been interesting to see how long the HCG alone could have sustained the sperm producing parts making up testicular volume and it would have helped clinicians decide how long they could go without supplementing GnRH or FSH in these patients.

This article was kind of interesting too in that authors are linking chronic anabolic steroid administration to worsening cardiac function. But their relatively small sample size was on a whopper dose of testosterone(weekly doses of 675mg!) over a cumulative 400+ weeks of their lives. However some of their people were using GH also which could definitely confound their results. Safety still sounds kinda dicey, but then again so is driving on the highway or having a gun in the house.

Still trying to wrap my brain around how this stuff can be addictive...

Dunno... tough call esp with no articles covering long term longitudinal followup. Good luck, gentlemen.

Not so much plagiarism as google-fu. I am guessing you have access to a college on-line library or the like and can search articles. There is a lot you are hashing up with the links that don't apply to HRT/TRT.

First, the testosterone most will take on TRT/HRT is a cypionate type. Enanthate and others are taken by bodybuilders usually and the milligrams don't line up. Enanthate are about 2:1 so much more powerful. They are also stacking things like Winstrol/Stanazonal on top of that.

A 'roid user will typically take a 10 week HRT/TRT program in a week or two, they will usually go 10 weeks at least on their cycles as well...in all reality it's the only way anyone gets to the level of today's professional bodybuilders and most of those since the 70's.

HCG is all over the news. Hardly just pregnant females. In men it tells the testicles to each producing test. It also has fat loss benefits. Lots of quackery and lots of fake goods out there.

There have been quite a few studies on HRT and many doctors found in older men the ones with the higher testosterone levels were living the longest. It's these studies that created 'life extension' and the like and opened the door to insurance carriers at least covering Testosterone for patients with low levels.

A lot is being done to get HCG and the need for e-blockers into the insurance spot light and as proven medicine. The quacks selling HCG drops aren't helping. The focus is not to be fat loss, but to keep the bodies hormone production proper.

I had done a lot of research on this leading up to accepting it. I have a couple good friends that are doctors and taking this themselves. One is a competitive MMA practitioner at 41 years old, real deal events with champions competing as well.

 

[alkemyst]

An update from seeing my Primary Care physician today. First she's not happy about the steroids. She's one that is more conservative in her approach and not an athlete.

Despite my Triglycerides being down from 700 to 370 (still double the high range of normal) and off my meds for that condition; she wants me to start a drug for that. I forget the name and will update this once I get the script back. I am also on Benicar/HCT 20/12.5 which I think was a product of my injury causing a 20-30lb weight gain, immobility and finding out my healthy diet actually had about 4g of sodium in it (I am seriously avoiding processed/packaged foods going forward). She did agree my Testosterone was way too low, but would try diet and other things prior to going on hormones.

I had shoulder surgery 40 days ago and I have been cleared to stop all physical therapy and start back in the gym. I am happy about that, easily two months ahead of most guys that needed SLAP surgery. Fortunately my gym is both local (5 min bike ride) and well stocked. Dumbbells to 160lbs plus a couple of 200lbs, various kettle balls and "medicine" balls, balance platforms, Life Fitness and Cybex machines, weight cages, sleds, harnesses, bands, any aerobic machine you'd like even a rower.

I am going to do a lot of core exercises on the balance platforms. I am restricted by my surgeon to stick to 12-15 reps with him really wanting 15 the lowest rep range and no jerking movements. Everything steady and controlled. Working 'core' like this is great. Get up on the platform with a kettle ball, medicine ball or dumbells and exercise while you are trying to balance yourself.

My weight is already down 10lbs and my stomach has majorly slimmed...I still carry a bit of 'gut' but that will be gone in probably 30 days. I am hoping at 3 months I am looking toned/average fitness.

My surgeon and I will talk further in 30 days. I mentioned HRT to him and he wasn't opposed to that at all and mentioned one of his partners includes that in his recommendations for older athletes hitting the wall on injuries, slow gains, bodyfat increases, etc and his patients become like night and day very quickly.

That said, my first shot sucked. Without an extra syringe I had to poke my HCG vials 8 times to draw and transfer the solution to reconstitute the powdered HCG. It was a VERY dull needle.

That needle becomes the first one you use for your Testosterone injection. I think my skin depressed a full 1/4" before it pierced it. Going 1"+ into my Vastus probably caused some trauma with that needle. I am a bit sore 2 days later.

I am going to try my Glutes, the only issue is trying to asperate back there. The oils make pulling back the plunger difficult.

 

[Sust]

Geez, cant give an internet stranger the benefit of the doubt? What kind of world is this.

I'm not singling out the HRT/TRT that you're talking about. I'm more concerned about the usage in general of all of these androgens and various other flavors of hormones. I know you've already done all of the research and you think it's safe, but do you really know though? Again, you seem defensive about this and justifiably so because you're pretty sure you're right after what youve heard/read and this internet yahoo (who you're pretty sure is just googling all of this stuff together) isnt convinced after looking at a lot of the pubmed science and data you talk about(thanks for not linking and making me hunt down articles myself).
I promise this will be the last link I post, but it's to this old old study called the Women's Health Initiative. Back then, docs and medical science were so sure that hormone replacement in menopausal women was going to be awesome and the science seemed sound from what they knew so they put their money where there mouth was. What they found out from the study was a little disturbing for them to say the least and that is what is missing in the data for testosterone replacement so far. This(dammit I lied) is the closest of what ive found and I'd appreciate any better or more recent studies that any one has found because I simply want to learn more about what will likely be something that pts are soon going to be asking their docs about alot.

Again not attacking you and your choice, but i've seen medicine/science with all of it's hubris make recommendations that ultimately turned out to be wrong. That's a risk youve clearly chosen to accept, but what about other readers who arent as cavalier as you are? All I wanna know is what the true risks/benefits are in a large representative cross section of the population going through a randomized double blind placebo control trial. Maybe that's what your conservative doc is looking for in the evidence and why she was kinda cross with you when you mentioned the androgen supplementation?

 

[Artista]

Sust, I can see what you mean but lets take it easy on alkemyst. Yeah I can say that the steroid regimen is more than I would do and in fact would recommend that it is reduced but if it works for him...

Alkemyst for gosh sake, do not take a statin for high cholesterol. That crap is poison. Just eat quick oatmeal every single morning with a banana. Reduce your weight also and the blood levels will look better. No sugar, no starch, six small meals a day, etc. lots of cardio.

Also a detox would help along with a liver, gall bladder flush and colon flush with a fast. ( not medical advice.)

When you inject your self use a "darting" action like throwing a dart. A quick flip of the wrist and it will be in.

 

[SilthDraeth]

I got my cream yesterday. Script says 1 gram twice a day. So I applied first time at night before bed. It works pretty fast as I haven't had a pitched tent at night in years.

Anyways, also, most days I feel worn out by 2pm and end up taking a nap. I like to blame it on living in Arizona and it being hot as all hell, but truth is, my tank is dry from me being out of shape and everything else.

Well today, my energy levels where good all day long. I even had motivation to go for a long walk. "I can't run, or bike due to back surgery"

Definitely looking forward to a few months down the road. Doc wrote the script for me to get 4 more refills and each one lasts a month, so 5 months total.

If I can keep up the exercising and energy levels, I should be pretty good shape in a few months. (/praying)

 

[alkemyst]

Geez, cant give an internet stranger the benefit of the doubt? What kind of world is this.

I'm not singling out the HRT/TRT that you're talking about. I'm more concerned about the usage in general of all of these androgens and various other flavors of hormones. I know you've already done all of the research and you think it's safe, but do you really know though? Again, you seem defensive about this and justifiably so because you're pretty sure you're right after what youve heard/read and this internet yahoo (who you're pretty sure is just googling all of this stuff together) isnt convinced after looking at a lot of the pubmed science and data you talk about(thanks for not linking and making me hunt down articles myself).
I promise this will be the last link I post, but it's to this old old study called the Women's Health Initiative. Back then, docs and medical science were so sure that hormone replacement in menopausal women was going to be awesome and the science seemed sound from what they knew so they put their money where there mouth was. What they found out from the study was a little disturbing for them to say the least and that is what is missing in the data for testosterone replacement so far. This(dammit I lied) is the closest of what ive found and I'd appreciate any better or more recent studies that any one has found because I simply want to learn more about what will likely be something that pts are soon going to be asking their docs about alot.

Again not attacking you and your choice, but i've seen medicine/science with all of it's hubris make recommendations that ultimately turned out to be wrong. That's a risk youve clearly chosen to accept, but what about other readers who arent as cavalier as you are? All I wanna know is what the true risks/benefits are in a large representative cross section of the population going through a randomized double blind placebo control trial. Maybe that's what your conservative doc is looking for in the evidence and why she was kinda cross with you when you mentioned the androgen supplementation?

I am not being defensive, I am wondering why you are going off on tangents not really related to what is being discussed here.

HRT has been happening for decades now, it's now getting into the spot light.

I have a pretty large background of knowledge on these kinds of things both from training athletically since I was a kid and my original college education was for Pharmacy or Medicine. I ended up accepted to Pharmacy school and changed gears at that time.

You can link and post all you want, but for anything there are always 'good' articles and always 'bad' articles; doesn't matter if it's the daily paper or a medical journal.

You have access apparently to what college students would, are you educated in biology and chemistry beyond a high school/freshman level? Do you understand some studies are flawed to begin with?

Testosterone is proven as a key component in keeping males healthy. Much of male disease begins as testosterone levels drop. However; too much can be bad too and lead to liver and kidney problems, high blood pressure, etc. This is why one is monitored regularly on any hormone program. Even injecting the oil-based compounds you run a risk of an embolism...very rare but definitely possible if not careful with injections and asperating.

I have talked to many people on my program or one very similar prior to making my decision to go on it. Many have been on 10 years now (about the time I originally was thinking of starting it, but my levels were still OK at that time).

 

[alkemyst]

Sust, I can see what you mean but lets take it easy on alkemyst. Yeah I can say that the steroid regimen is more than I would do and in fact would recommend that it is reduced but if it works for him...

Alkemyst for gosh sake, do not take a statin for high cholesterol. That crap is poison. Just eat quick oatmeal every single morning with a banana. Reduce your weight also and the blood levels will look better. No sugar, no starch, six small meals a day, etc. lots of cardio.

Also a detox would help along with a liver, gall bladder flush and colon flush with a fast. (What I did, not medical advice.)

When you inject your self use a "darting" action like throwing a dart. A quick flip of the wrist and it will be in.

Once I get the med back I will do some research on it. I am not crazy about taking stuff to begin with.

I have no doubt once I am back in shape all my levels will work themselves out, except my triglycerides which have always been high my whole life.

 

[Sust]

Sust, I can see what you mean but lets take it easy on alkemyst. Yeah I can say that the steroid regimen is more than I would do and in fact would recommend that it is reduced but if it works for him...

Alkemyst for gosh sake, do not take a statin for high cholesterol. That crap is poison. Just eat quick oatmeal every single morning with a banana. Reduce your weight also and the blood levels will look better. No sugar, no starch, six small meals a day, etc. lots of cardio.

Also a detox would help along with a liver, gall bladder flush and colon flush with a fast. ( not medical advice.)

When you inject your self use a "darting" action like throwing a dart. A quick flip of the wrist and it will be in.

Im sorry if it seems like i'm attacking alkemyst b/c he, like any one else living in a free country, can do whatever he wants with his body. What I was trying to do was bring a counterbalance to Alkemyst who's coming into a thread extolling the virtues of TRT/HRT which clearly has some logic/reason behind it plus short term benefits, but has already had a similar version gone infamously/unexpectedly wrong once before in the fairer sex on longitudinal followup. My hope is that the casual ATHF reader doesnt walk away from a thread like this thinking these hormones are all sugar 'n spice and everything nice. The fact is that no one knows yet and if you choose to walk down this road then you take that risk.
I really hope Im being overly cautious and that Alkemyst will be fine 10-20 years down the line, but I would feel guilty if no one brought up the very brutal reality that medical science has not evaluated TRT/HRT with the gold standard of evidence based medicine and that there is still a real possibility for as of yet unknown bad stuff. Go forth and decide for yourself, ATHF.

 

[Sust]

I am not being defensive, I am wondering why you are going off on tangents not really related to what is being discussed here.

HRT has been happening for decades now, it's now getting into the spot light.

I have a pretty large background of knowledge on these kinds of things both from training athletically since I was a kid and my original college education was for Pharmacy or Medicine. I ended up accepted to Pharmacy school and changed gears at that time.

You can link and post all you want, but for anything there are always 'good' articles and always 'bad' articles; doesn't matter if it's the daily paper or a medical journal.

You have access apparently to what college students would, are you educated in biology and chemistry beyond a high school/freshman level? Do you understand some studies are flawed to begin with?

Testosterone is proven as a key component in keeping males healthy. Much of male disease begins as testosterone levels drop. However; too much can be bad too and lead to liver and kidney problems, high blood pressure, etc. This is why one is monitored regularly on any hormone program. Even injecting the oil-based compounds you run a risk of an embolism...very rare but definitely possible if not careful with injections and asperating.

I have talked to many people on my program or one very similar prior to making my decision to go on it. Many have been on 10 years now (about the time I originally was thinking of starting it, but my levels were still OK at that time).

Yep. Not defensive at all.
Anyways, the thread's title was "Testosterone Gel-Anyone used?" I thought all talk of testosterone was open territory in this thread especially after you opened things up first? If you or the OP would rather not hear of my side any more then you can have the mods ban me or I think there's some kind of ignore feature built into AT so that anyone who wants can ignore my posts.
Im sorry you think that Im attacking your personal credentials and feel the need to prove your street creds while attacking mine, but Im actually attacking your position of open endorsement without the caveat that the best evidence isnt in yet. Obviously you're supposed to approach all internet info with a grain of salt, but people could easily get the wrong impression here and make a different decision if they had known that there was still obvious uncertainty here. Clearly someone with your background can concede that at least and if you dont then im even happier that Ive uncharacteristically crawled outta my lurking hole this long to counterbalance this thread.
Sigh, i've unfortunately spent decades of my life reading a lot of bad(and surprisingly good) articles and a lot of them were not only on google scholar, but also on pubmed as I flipped through article after article for hours on even just this topic alone. This field in particular clearly needs more researchers given the growing public interest(including mine) in testosterone. Unfortunately, peer reviewed research is the best we got so far and you're right that even with peer review there's room for errors/deception. However, articles are meant to be read/digested/criticized and serve as springboards for more experimentation/discussion to confirm what was found and hopefully extend the field of knowledge farther in quality/breadth. I think it's best to gather as much evidence as possible before having to make a decision. In my circle, i'd rather be known for evaluating the available evidence and erring on quiet reservation rather than bold recommendation.