Texas Cheereaders Win Right To Display Banners With Biblical Quotes

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Dec 10, 2005
24,433
7,356
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It's freedom of religion not freedom from religion. As long as the school doesn't endorse a religion but lets their students the freedom to practice (and advertise) their religion, everything is ok.

The issue isn't that random students are displaying these things in the stands at the football game. It's the school's cheerleading squad that's doing it. Cheerleading is probably a school-sponsored club/sport and they are at a school-sponsored event. It doesn't pass my smell test of non-endorsement of religion.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
It's a borderline case on the Establishment Cause IMO. I find it distressing that this judge's ruling apparently didn't even address the issue directly. I wonder if it's going up on appeal. I can live with it going either way, but we should have a reasoned opinion that addresses the major Constitutional arguments.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
I'm in. Can we get some Pasta love too while we're at it? These people really need to hear about my love of cheeses.

We can, I'm not trying to exclude any religious group. I just figured I'd start with the ones that we know some people are offended by. I don't know anyone offended by pasta. All hail his noodly goodness.
 

Theb

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
3,533
9
76
As long as they wear short skirts and do high kicks I don't care what they write on their banners. I won't be reading them.
 

Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
2,572
25
91
As an atheist and student of science...

I'm more offended by their promotion of a game at what should be an academic institution than their expression of religious beliefs.

Schools and society in general needs to stop pouring so many resources into tribalistic competitive sports. If a group of people want to go to a park and foot around a ball or hand around an egg; that's fine.

Paying people millions to dedicate their lives to a game, and worse, giving a chunk of the next generation the false hope of being payed to do the same, is simply a non-productive use of our limited resources.
[/soapbox]
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,697
25,018
136
It's a borderline case on the Establishment Cause IMO. I find it distressing that this judge's ruling apparently didn't even address the issue directly. I wonder if it's going up on appeal. I can live with it going either way, but we should have a reasoned opinion that addresses the major Constitutional arguments.

Even if the judge's ruling survives an appeal I really question the judgement of the cheerleaders here. They are supposed to represent the entire school and using that platform to advocate for a single religious belief to the exclusion of others that may be held by students at the schools means they've failed in their duty to represent their classmates.

Students in the stands holding up religious banners is different and not a problem at all as long as they were paid for with private funds.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
It's a borderline case on the Establishment Cause IMO. I find it distressing that this judge's ruling apparently didn't even address the issue directly. I wonder if it's going up on appeal. I can live with it going either way, but we should have a reasoned opinion that addresses the major Constitutional arguments.

Agreed. I wish judges would be more direct in their decision making. Its wishy washy reasons that cause future issues. Their representation of the school is a far distant second to still being Americans.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
404 promotion not found.

404 reading comprehension not found. zsdrew said that in some other cases, these charges are legitimate, because such promotion/rejection is found.

pretty clear to me that zsdrw agreed that in this case, the charges were off-base, while in others, it is clear that public money has gone to promote specific religions above all others--this point runs counter to Incorruptible's repeatedly un-grounded charges that Christianity and only Christianity is in constant attack and any protest against his beliefs, no matter the basis, are unconstitutional and offensive.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Even if the judge's ruling survives an appeal I really question the judgement of the cheerleaders here. They are supposed to represent the entire school and using that platform to advocate for a single religious belief to the exclusion of others that may be held by students at the schools means they've failed in their duty to represent their classmates.

Students in the stands holding up religious banners is different and not a problem at all as long as they were paid for with private funds.

I agree re: their poor judgment. That, however, doesn't make it a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Endorsement turns on both intent and effect. Here the effect is perhaps debatable. It could be perceived as endorsement if it isn't 100% clear that the act was wholly done on the cheerleaders' own initiative. However, the intent isn't really there because so far as we know, the school has not backed or encouraged their actions. It has remained neutral throughout.

As I said, it's borderline, but I lean slightly in favor of allowing it here. I'd like to see a court opinion with some analysis of precedent.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,697
25,018
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They aren't required, nor would it be legal, for them to give up their rights to simply be on the cheerleading squad.

I agree, but as a the school's cheerleading squad shouldn't the expectation for them in their "official" capacity be to represent all students?

The school should shut this kind of activity down because it doesn't align with their mission as a cheerleaders is. They are completely free to do whatever they want on their own time when they aren't acting on behalf of the school. Notice I'm not specifically saying the establishment clause was violated here. I think there are other issues at play here as well.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,697
25,018
136
I agree re: their poor judgment. That, however, doesn't make it a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Endorsement turns on both intent and effect. Here the effect is perhaps debatable. It could be perceived as endorsement if it isn't 100% clear that the act was wholly done on the cheerleaders' own initiative. However, the intent isn't really there because so far as we know, the school has not backed or encouraged their actions. It has remained neutral throughout.

As I said, it's borderline, but I lean slightly in favor of allowing it here. I'd like to see a court opinion with some analysis of precedent.

I think we're on the same page.
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,417
60
91
I agree, but as a the school's cheerleading squad shouldn't the expectation for them in their "official" capacity be to represent all students?

The school should shut this kind of activity down because it doesn't align with their mission as a cheerleaders is. They are completely free to do whatever they want on their own time when they aren't acting on behalf of the school. Notice I'm not specifically saying the establishment clause was violated here. I think there are other issues at play here as well.

Realistically, there is no way that cheerleaders could ever represent every student in the entire school. What about students that don't like cheerleading for one reason or another? Should they disband? What about students that want them to wear different uniforms, do different cheers, etc. It is impossible because everyone is diverse---which is completely fine. Just like one politician cannot possibly represent his constituents on every issue.

They will just have to pick their battles. I am not saying that this is a good decision by the cheerleaders because it does alienate people more than say picking one cheer/chant over another. But I have no issue with cheerleaders being able to do this legally and the same would go if they were Muslim cheerleaders putting a quote from the Kuran.

By the way, where does it state freedom from religion in the Constitution? I know the First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Where in that clause does it say that these cheerleaders can't put Biblical quotes on a sign during a school sanctioned event? All that clause points to is making laws or not making laws. Unless there is another area of the Constitution that says government must be free from religion.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
I agree, but as a the school's cheerleading squad shouldn't the expectation for them in their "official" capacity be to represent all students?

The school should shut this kind of activity down because it doesn't align with their mission as a cheerleaders is. They are completely free to do whatever they want on their own time when they aren't acting on behalf of the school. Notice I'm not specifically saying the establishment clause was violated here. I think there are other issues at play here as well.

Sorry, nowhere has that ever been a requirement to represent anything, especially school athletics. It would be nice if that were the case, but it doesn't work that way.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Where in that clause does it say that these cheerleaders can't put Biblical quotes on a sign during a school sanctioned event? All that clause points to is making laws or not making laws. Unless there is another area of the Constitution that says government must be free from religion.

I'm afraid you are taking a narrower interpretation of the First Amendment than any court in history has taken. "Congress shall make no law" also applies to freedom of speech. Should we consider it OK if the POTUS tries to ban speech by use of an executive order? After all, it doesn't say anything about executive orders, right?
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,417
60
91
I'm afraid you are taking a narrower interpretation of the First Amendment than any court in history has taken. "Congress shall make no law" also applies to freedom of speech. Should we consider it OK if the POTUS tries to ban speech by use of an executive order? After all, it doesn't say anything about executive orders, right?

I can agree with that. I did do some research and see how the Supreme Court has made decisions on the First Amendment. Obviously, there is alot of gray area with this--as can be seen by all of the turmoil for and against it. I know the original intent is so that the gov't can't establish its own religion like England did back in the 1700s.

But if we take things this far, then why not ban prayers by gov't officials when held at gatherings in gov't locations? I don't believe when a President prays that he is saying that the US govt officially supports Christianity.

The short answer is that common sense has no place in any gov't law or function apparently. Everything must be spelled out clearly or it will be misinterpreted.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
No one pays any attention to or looks at cheerleaders anyway, whats the big deal?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Where did I move anything? I simply restated the same thing. They aren't promoting a religion by simply allowing the students to display a religion message. Since when does doing nothing equate to promoting something?

Allowing a religion to be promoted via a publicly funded event IS allowing a publicly funded event to promote religion. I don't get why that concept is so hard to understand.


It would be an infringement of their first amendment rights to prevent them from displaying a religious message. A court of law isn't going to allow that to happen because of this.
Please do tell how it would be an infringement of their first amendment rights? If I own a business can I run a banner across the field promoting that business for free and if they decline sue because my rights were violated? Of course not, no one is telling them what they can and can not say or do they are simply saying what they can promote while participating in a publicly funded event. I am quite sure they could drop out of cheer leading and pass out all the religions info they want in the parkinglot or across the street without issues.

You seem to subscribe to belief that we have freedom from religion in this country. We do not.

We have religious freedom which includes not having state sponsored religion(s). The state is not allowed to promote a specific religion nor is it allowed to spend funds promoting any religion. As I said previously, this is flirting with the gray area and I wouldn't have chose this fight but its still wrong all the same.

The real irony is that at least 90% of the people that support this decision do so only because of the specific religion involved. If it had been a different religion this thread wouldn't even have been made.
 
Last edited:

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
They aren't required, nor would it be legal, for them to give up their rights to simply be on the cheerleading squad.

Pretty sure the court has already ruled that students do give up some rights when they are at school. Since this is a school sanctioned event I don't see why that wouldn't apply here as well and they are probably minors as well which has an impact.
 
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