Texas Ebola patient dies

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squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
Travel ban would be politically popular, and counter productive. Lots of people who rail against political expediency vs doing the right thing are upset that the travel ban is not being enacted. What do you make of it?
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
13
46
Here are two..

If you impose a travel ban someone with Ebola would just go to a neighboring country before heading to the US. We wouldn't be able to track them and people they come in contact with.

The US enacts a ban. Europe would be forced to follow suit since the US is considered a work leader in air travel. Soon other countries join in and would have serious worldwide economic impact.

1) passports
2) I sincerely doubt that there is so much air travel coming from the affected parts of west Africa that there would be world wide economic impact. Eyjafjallajokull blocked routes between Europe and the US for almost a week, flying over ebola wouldn't do that.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
Here are two..

If you impose a travel ban someone with Ebola would just go to a neighboring country before heading to the US. We wouldn't be able to track them and people they come in contact with.

The US enacts a ban. Europe would be forced to follow suit since the US is considered a work leader in air travel. Soon other countries join in and would have serious worldwide economic impact.

Its only 3 people. A little too soon for panic. I would be far more concerned for nurses not having the proper equipment to treat the known cases. That Texas hospital still doesn't have the correct suits this far into it.


I am not really panicked as of yet, but considering we only have 4 facilities in the whole US with a grand total of 19 beds that can reliably deal with this virus, this is just a disaster waiting to happen. Furthermore, with some estimates going as high as 1 million potential cases by January in West Africa, tracking that many people will turn into a nightmare, even though I know that only a small portion of those people will try to come here.

I also seriously doubt that barring a lot of traffic to the West African nations will severely harm our economy, or the world economy as a whole. Those nations are dirt poor, and probably represent a miniscule fraction of world GDP.

Lastly, if we cancel their visas and passports, they can fly wherever they want, but they will not be able to enter the US, no matter if they try to come here indirectly through another country......
 
Nov 8, 2012
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What is the point of not allowing them inside the nation? They can still get on the flight, be denied at passport entry, and then cough, spit, and spew all over people.

You have to cancel the flights altogether, if anything.

Also, charges should be pressed on the nurse that flew full well knowing that she had the virus. Absolutely ridiculous.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
What if Ebola spreads to India or China, or Europe, you going to shut down all global air travel? Should we close all of Texas airports too?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,001
8,033
136
You can't even make this stuff up anymore.

"Do you have absolutely any medical credentials?"
"No sir, none whatsoever!"
"Great! You are the new Ebola Czar!"

Does the manager of a company need to be an engineer?

One does not need to be an expert in the field, to be a manager of experts in the field. Do they?
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
13
46
Also, charges should be pressed on the nurse that flew full well knowing that she had the virus. Absolutely ridiculous.

Why press charges when she called the CDC multiple times and they told her to go because she was minimal risk?

We need to do everything for this person who is fighting for his life. We know how to stop #Ebola & we will stop it here.
— Dr. Tom Frieden (@DrFriedenCDC) October 1, 2014
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
13
46
What if Ebola spreads to India or China, or Europe, you going to shut down all global air travel? Should we close all of Texas airports too?

If we had banned air travel for individuals originating in the affected regions you wouldn't have had to actually ask that question. To answer your second question, yes, anyone who had even remote access to Duncan should "shelter in place."
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
Does the manager of a company need to be an engineer?

One does not need to be an expert in the field, to be a manager of experts in the field. Do they?

Nope, not necessarily. But unfortunately your premise is silly since he has no management experience at all either. Plain and simple he is a political operative who is being put in place to control PR. We don't need better PR though, we need better actions and procedures. The NY Times article has a few salient points regarding his appointment:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/u...vice-presidents-is-named-ebola-czar.html?_r=0


“He’ll control the message better than most people would, which is really important from an economic standpoint, from a health standpoint, but it’s also important from a political perspective,” the operative said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

“If anybody can get the way this is being reported and discussed under control in a short period of time, he’s the one,” the operative added.


Controlling the message and how it is reported is not fixing the core issue, it is just spin......
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I don't think Emergency rooms should even accept patients who says they might have Ebola. We need a different way to treat this. We need to separate Ebola patients from other patients.

I think we need a no-travel policy everywhere in the USA.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
There has been progress. This gentlemen has found the cause for Ebola.

Ebola may be part of God's judgment for President Barack Obama's alleged attempts to "divide Jerusalem," said John Hagee, a San Antonio-based pastor and founder of Christians United For Israel.

Citing the Book of Joel, the televangelist took to Tuesday's broadcast of the "Hagee Hotline" to tell listeners that "our president is dead set on dividing Jerusalem. God is watching and he will bring America into judgment,"
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Does the manager of a company need to be an engineer?

One does not need to be an expert in the field, to be a manager of experts in the field. Do they?

No, but then one does have to be an expert in the field of managing experts.... this guy is not an expert in anything but being a political hack. He brings nothing useful, unless you consider the ability to apply political spin and "control the message" to manage political damage for the left wing as "useful". Lets see if the media takes obummer to task for putting someone completely unqualified in an important position.... oh , lol, I can't even type it with a straight face, the media won't hold obummer accountable for anything, including this.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
No, but then one does have to be an expert in the field of managing experts.... this guy is not an expert in anything but being a political hack. He brings nothing useful, unless you consider the ability to apply political spin and "control the message" to manage political damage for the left wing as "useful". Lets see if the media takes obummer to task for putting someone completely unqualified in an important position.... oh , lol, I can't even type it with a straight face, the media won't hold obummer accountable for anything, including this.

If he says obummer one more time..... just one more time.... I will not be held responsible for my response.... just saying....
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
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Why press charges when she called the CDC multiple times and they told her to go because she was minimal risk?


Citation for actual proof of calling the CDC and them actually telling her to get on a public transit flight? Really? You're going to believe what comes from a horse's mouth?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Citation for actual proof of calling the CDC and them actually telling her to get on a public transit flight? Really? You're going to believe what comes from a horse's mouth?

The head of the CDC discussed it and said they (the CDC) made a mistake.

Frieden, whose resignation has been called for by several lawmakers, admitted in his testimony that the nurse should not have traveled, although it was a CDC official who gave her the OK to take the flight, given that her fever was under the threshold set by the CDC and she had no other symptoms.

White House press secretary Josh Earnest said Thursday that the decision to allow Vinson to travel was "a mistake" that should not have occurred, but the risk of infection for the other passengers was "rather low."
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/he...-handling-ebola-repubs-demand-ban-on-flights/

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Here are two..

If you impose a travel ban someone with Ebola would just go to a neighboring country before heading to the US. We wouldn't be able to track them and people they come in contact with.

The US enacts a ban. Europe would be forced to follow suit since the US is considered a work leader in air travel. Soon other countries join in and would have serious worldwide economic impact.

Its only 3 people. A little too soon for panic. I would be far more concerned for nurses not having the proper equipment to treat the known cases. That Texas hospital still doesn't have the correct suits this far into it.
I agree about the nurses, but I doubt that shutting down non-essential air travel with Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone will have much economic impact worldwide. Their major trading partners already have cut off non-essential travel.

Does the manager of a company need to be an engineer?

One does not need to be an expert in the field, to be a manager of experts in the field. Do they?
In this analogy, Obama is the manager of the company, and he's hired his slow-witted cousin to run the engineering department. There is zero value in appointing someone with absolutely no experience and expertise he cannot possibly understand.

There has been progress. This gentlemen has found the cause for Ebola.
This is the "G-d has shitty aim" theory.

"How dare that Kenyan Muslim defy My will and divide Jerusalem! I shall visit a plague up on him and his people! I will-

Oh, Me! I hit Africa! Sorry! Sorry everybody! That was me, sorry."
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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Citation for actual proof of calling the CDC and them actually telling her to get on a public transit flight? Really? You're going to believe what comes from a horse's mouth?

It's been in the news for several days:

"Amber Vinson called the Centers for Disease Control, on Monday, to say that she had a temperature of 99.5 degrees and planned to get on a commercial flight from Cleveland to Dallas; should she? Vinson, a nurse, had cared for Thomas Eric Duncan, a patient with Ebola, in Dallas—she had put a catheter in him and been in close contact when he was vomiting and in the throes of diarrhea. The day before Vinson made her call, one of her colleagues, Nina Pham, had tested positive for Ebola. There was, supposedly, a system in place for monitoring Duncan’s contacts. And yet, as the C.D.C. confirmed late on Wednesday, the official Vinson spoke to cleared her to fly. Vinson got on Frontier Airlines Flight 1143, with a hundred and thirty-two other passengers. She landed in Dallas at 8:16 P.M.. The next morning, her fever was worse; around midnight, she tested positive for Ebola."

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/amber-vinson-ebola
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,704
507
126
In spite of quoting him you completely missed his point - that every part of the first world except the USA already has the system you say we must adopt and yet has done utterly nothing to provide a cure or a vaccination for Ebolla.

My points weren't about the U.S. health care system vs. the single payer systems of other countries. I'm sure you're aware that those countries have not copied wholesale each other's systems and that there are several variations on the idea.
They're about about Professor Hill's contentions that the free market motivations of for profit Pharmaceutical companies haven't been sufficient motivation to develop Ebola vaccines, because the market for those drugs have prior to 2014 been "too small."

As for that other guy...


I understand his point.

The problem is his posts have conflated two separate (albeit related) categories of entities, so that he could employ the use of profanity as a substitute for a reasoned reply.

Pharmaceutical companies aren't under the authority of any health care systems. They do research and development into drugs/medicines that they then sell to customers (under regulatory constraints imposed by government regulations to ensure that the devlopment of such drugs is carried out as safely as possible) around the world.

Their customers include hospitals and individuals with insurance. The health care systems of some countries do leverage their buying power and obtain medicines at cheaper prices compared to other countries. An example of this was illustrated by various news stories about U.S. citizens in the north who would cross into Canada to obtain medicine to fill their prescriptions at lower costs than buying the same medicines in the States.


It is a fundamental mistake to conflate the pharmaceutical industry which developes medicines to treat illnesses and health care systems which exist to deliver health care (including drugs and medicines when necessary) to citizens within the countries those health care systems operate in.

Considering the preceding statement it misses the point to argue that since socialized healthcare hasn't developed a cure for Ebola one shouldn't criticize the profit driven pharma industry for not developing a cure either. Why does it miss the point?

Because as stated previously they are not the same things, even though they interact with each other and customers of drug companies don't necessarily come from the same countries as those companies.



My linked article to which the person assumed that pharma and health care systems are one and the same then ended with
LMAO, fuck that guy.
isn't a call for by the Professor, who's a lead in a country's response to ebola, for all countries to adopted single payer health care systems.

The article more about Professor Hill's explanation as to why profit driven pharma companies failed developed an ebola vaccine that could have prevented the current outbreak from claiming so many lives. While it is almost certainly Professor Hill's view that single payer health care systems are better, that wasn't the focus of the article I linked to.


There is no real profit for big pharma to develop an ebola vaccine even if initial research has yielded experimental drugs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ictims-why-9716615.html?origin=internalSearch
However, Professor Hill said that the fact that a vaccine had not been available to stop the disease when it emerged in Guinea six months ago represented a "market failure" of the commercial system of vaccine production which is dominated by the pharmaceutical giants.
Already, the experimental drug ZMapp, developed by Mapp, a small biopharmaceutical firm in the US, has been used to treat at least seven patients – four of them Westerners – and has shown promising results in trials on primates. Stocks have now run out, but Mapp has been handed $25m (£15m) by the US government to scale up production.
$25 million is a bucket for an industry in which the largest players are collectively raking in billions in net profits (not revenue.... profits). Mapp is a smaller company whose work on Ebola isn't so profitable hence the appropriation by the U.S. government.
Professor Hill explained that the GSK/NIH vaccine, which is based on a strain of chimpanzee cold virus and known as ChAd3, was originally developed in the US for potential use against a bio-terror attack – and only existed because of high levels of funding allocated to vaccines designated for defence.

Asked why a fully tested and licensed vaccine had not been developed, Professor Hill said: "Well, who makes vaccines? Today, commercial vaccine supply is monopolised by four or five mega- companies – GSK, Sanofi, Merck, Pfizer – some of the biggest companies in the world.

"The problem with that is, even if you've got a way of making a vaccine, unless there's a big market, it's not worth the while of a mega-company …. There was no business case to make an Ebola vaccine for the people who needed it most: first because of the nature of the outbreak; second, the number of people likely to be affected was, until now, thought to be very small; and third, the fact that the people affected are in some of the poorest countries in the world and can't afford to pay for a new vaccine. It's a market failure."

If you read through the article Professor Hill isn't calling for single payer health care for all countries he is explaining why "free market" motivations have resulted in Pharma companies moving slowly on the development an ebola vaccine even though the existence of experimental treatments very convincingly shows that it is within the realm of possibility.

Big pharma is great at developing new drugs for heart disease, diabetes, various cancers and other common ailments because they're common, have a much larger customer base, and it's much more likely that companies will yield profits from those areas of R&D.

Unfortunately while the above paragraph illustrates a strength of the free market in motivating Big Pharma to develop many categories of drugs, it is not very effective in motivating those companies to develop vaccines for diseases like Ebola very quickly.

Even if they were more profitable than they already are (from countries paying them whatever fees they wanted) how likely is it that they would turn around and sink those profits into research into diseases like ebola instead of more profitable drugs... or better compensation packages for executvie officers and board members. If free market forces were effective for motivating development of deadly disease vaccines by themselves then those drugs have been available to curb the current outbreak of ebola.... right?

Here is link to another person who made the same point as Professor Hill
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ebola-vaccine/story?id=24796130
Though Ebola was first discovered nearly four decades ago, there’s still no vaccine that’s regularly administered to humans to prevent it.

But why?

“There’s always the layperson’s query of ‘Why don’t they rush this?’ ‘Why don’t these guys work a little later at night?’” said Dr. Willian Schaffner, chair of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. “It’s a little more complicated than that.”

Because Ebola cases are so rare, drug manufacturers hadn’t been interested in investing in finding its vaccine, Schaffner said. In addition, Ebola’s rarity makes it impossible for scientists to do field studies, which they were able to do with viruses like measles, which people were likely to be exposed to anyway because it was so common.

Because "business considerations" don't provide enough of a motive for Drug Companies develop these vaccines it is a failure to expect them to do so. That is why an alternative method to the "free market"of developing vaccines for diseases like Ebola are needed. The only other method that seems viable is the public funding that research and development.

Saying that the public entities have failed as well is also correct. However, a well informed public in democratic countries has a better chance (collectively) of influencing public entities like the National Institute for Health and the WHO than they do with influencing Big Pharma.

The failure of public entities to act reflects on citizens' failure to signal to elected officials that it is a necessary concern, but it doesn't change the fact that Professor Hill's statements are also relevant to the discussion. In other words it is a result of electing Tea Party candidates (in the U.S.) and other officials who insist on extreme austerity measures as a sound and proven fiscal policy when that is still very much up for debate.

What do you seriously think that a Tea Party congress member or other politician who subscribes to the idea of austerity would have said to the suggestion that public funding be made available for investments into ebola treatment research like Mapp is working on? Before this outbreak it definitely would be along the lines of "Hell no."




The poster whose point(s)view you suggested that I am misunderstanding doesn't argue the opposing view (to that of Professor Hill's) with any logic.

Instead, he just conflates two different, albeit related, entities (pharma companies and different health care systems) then uses profanity because the he apparently takes it as a personal affront if anyone suggests that free market solutions aren't always the best methods of getting things done. (see posts 347 and 349)

Sorry, but that is not the posture of a person who wants to have a reasoned discussion and because of that I don't feel any obligation to treat him as if he that kind of poster. This thread is not the only one in that has been the case either...

Werepossum, I don't recall you resorting to profanity because you disagree with someone...
that dirtbag however,
You're right, I can't be bothered, because you're a fucking buffoon.
So....

Fuck that filthy piece of mentally challenged, anal breath having excrement.



.....
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Should we remove "home of the brave" from the national anthem? I mean cheese eating surrender monkeys have Medecins Sans Frontieres in Africa treating Ebola patients in hellish conditions, Cuba is sending 150 doctors and nurses to Africa, and the US is running around like a headless chicken screaming about closing borders because there are 3 cases in a country of 300 million.
 
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