Texas executes Mexican national

[rudeguy]

Oh also...

do you have a basement?

 

[WelshBloke]

You are stretching on this one.

Halik said imagine someone gets stoned to death for a Kim Jun Dumbass joke
I said there are people locked up in DPRK and Iran that comitted no crime.
You said maybe by our standards
I have yet to hear of a country whose standards including shooting a cop in the back of the head 3 times while you are in that country illegally

What this is all about is bleeding heart liberals grapsing at straws. I have yet to see anyone provide any proof that he was denied access to anyone. The guy was in prison for decades, he had plenty of time to call whoever he wanted. I promise he was allowed visitors, I promise this was in the paper. Maybe Mexico was just happy to be rid of this cop killing filth?

Hey! I'm liberal and I'm fine with this. Guys a scumbag and he knew the rules. No use complaining about them when you lose.

 

[zinfamous]

first off, whenever I see blame put on "bleeding heart liberals" for x (x is generally some version of "why I hate myself"), I tune out

But yes, I agree that murder is the same standard pretty much anywhere--meaning, it is a crime, but of course different countries treat it differently.

You said: people are "in prison in Iran and DPRNK for committing no crime." well, what do you mean by no crime? Give me some examples of why they are in prison and why you call these "no crimes."

Are they crimes by your standards, or crimes by their standards?

Do note--I am making no judgement on the perception of justice for any type of crime.

Also note--I don't really support people being sent to prison for stepping out of line on a tourist trip, but I would actually like an international means to recover citizens in those cases. To say that an international treaty has no precedent over the godloving US of A is to say that our own citizens have no rights as an international tourist wherever they go, for whatever crime they commit, as mundane as you may judge it.

Those imprisoned in some labor camp are simply processed through the standards of that country, with its own appeals system...such as it may (not) be. I do think that our own system works in this particular case, but it works. The same argument people are making to justify this guy's punishment in rejection of international treaty is not the same argument they would be making if they were held in another country, with possibly far more stringent punishment for far less serious crimes.

 

[rudeguy]

first off, whenever I see blame put on "bleeding heart liberals" for x (x is generally some version of "why I hate myself"), I tune out

But yes, I agree that murder is the same standard pretty much anywhere--meaning, it is a crime, but of course different countries treat it differently.

You said: people are "in prison in Iran and DPRNK for committing no crime." well, what do you mean by no crime? Give me some examples of why they are in prison and why you call these "no crimes."

Are they crimes by your standards, or crimes by their standards?

Do note--I am making no judgement on the perception of justice for any type of crime.

Also note--I don't really support people being sent to prison for stepping out of line on a tourist trip, but I would actually like an international means to recover citizens in those cases. To say that an international treaty has no precedent over the godloving US of A is to say that our own citizens have no rights as an international tourist wherever they go, for whatever crime they commit, as mundane as you may judge it.

Those imprisoned in some labor camp are simply processed through the standards of that country, with its own appeals system...such as it may (not) be. I do think that our own system works in this particular case, but it works. The same argument people are making to justify this guy's punishment in rejection of international treaty is not the same argument they would be making if they were held in another country, with possibly far more stringent punishment for far less serious crimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/world/asia/american-tourist-arrested-in-north-korea.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/11/world/asia/north-korea-kenneth-bae/

 

[brycejones]

This is about as compelling as "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."

Anyone relatively unbiased state his rights were violated? Did Kerry ever say they were? How about an advocacy organization like Amnesty Intl?

You are more than welcome to go track down the court documents. Have fun. Conversely to your argument can you prove he was notified in a timely fashion after his arrest? I don't see anyone claiming he was, just that the lack of doing it shouldn't matter. I saw another poster posted something about the consulate being notified 10 days before the trial began of his status. I think most of us would agree that's not exactly timely since he had already been held for a significant period of time (months).

And for like the 100th time except for a troll post people aren't arguing that the guy was innocent or was going to get special rights. Just wishing that Texas would actually give a shit about the treaty obligations we have. I really don't get why some folks are so butt hurt over the thought of mere notification of the right to contact a country's consulate. The Vienna Convention can't be used as a get of jail free card and doesn't supersede the legal process in any way. The guy who was executed was a tool and I don't see it as unjust implementation of the death penalty.

 

[rudeguy]

and what about the basement damn it?

 

[TerryMathews]

You are more than welcome to go track down the court documents. Have fun.

No thanks. Youre alleging it happened its on you to substantiate. Anyone with a lick of common sense realizes that the Mexican government was made aware of his situation sometime during the 20 years he was incarcerated.

Did ya ever stop to think they didnt want him back?

 

[rudeguy]

No thanks. Youre alleging it happened its on you to substantiate. Anyone with a lick of common sense realizes that the Mexican government was made aware of his situation sometime during the 20 years he was incarcerated.

Did ya ever stop to think they didnt want him back?

That's my vote.

Errrr....so what happens if we deport someone and their country doesn't want them back?

 

[brycejones]

No thanks. Youre alleging it happened its on you to substantiate. Anyone with a lick of common sense realizes that the Mexican government was made aware of his situation sometime during the 20 years he was incarcerated.

Did ya ever stop to think they didnt want him back?

Look above ^^^. You keep saying it happened prove that it did.

I can only guess from your response though that would be ok with an American citizen being held in another country for months or years without notification to our government. You're missing the bigger issue by focusing on the individual involved in this case.

 

[TerryMathews]

That's my vote.

Errrr....so what happens if we deport someone and their country doesn't want them back?

Its happened before. ICE holds them until a country will take them. For some people, that's a life sentence.

Edit: it was a life sentence. Now, evidently, its six months. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/13/criminal-immigrants-free-to-kill-as-home-countries-refuse-them/#ixzz23SLql8XG

 

[brycejones]

That's my vote.

Errrr....so what happens if we deport someone and their country doesn't want them back?

Deportation was never an option.....

 

[TerryMathews]

Look above ^^^. You keep saying it happened prove that it did.

I can only guess from your response though that would be ok with an American citizen being held in another country for months or years without notification to our government. You're missing the bigger issue by focusing on the individual involved in this case.

No one said he was denied his Geneva rights but his lawyer. John Kerry was obviously opposed to the course Texas was on. Don't you think he would have said at some point "this man was denied his rights."

Excuse me if I dont put credence into the self-serving statement of a defense attorney.

 

[zinfamous]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/world/asia/american-tourist-arrested-in-north-korea.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/11/world/asia/north-korea-kenneth-bae/

uh...what's your point?

 

[PRAISE__SATAN]

Why would you want the government to murder humans?

 

[TerryMathews]

Why would you want the government to murder humans?

Because they deserve it. And it's not murder.

 

[zinfamous]

Because they deserve it. And it's not murder.

what about aborting an unborn fetus? I thought that was murder, tho.

:hmm:

 

[TerryMathews]

what about aborting an unborn fetus? I thought that was murder, tho.

:hmm:

What fetus has been condemned to death by a jury of its peers?

:hmm:

 

[zinfamous]

What fetus has been condemned to death by a jury of its peers?

:hmm:

so you're saying there is a legal precedent that invalidates the term "murder."? Say, as long as the state sanctions it, it can't be considered murder?

 

[smackababy]

What fetus has been condemned to death by a jury of its peers?

:hmm:

Someone could argue Roe vs Wade condemned all fetus to death, if the mother so chooses. But, that is a bit of a stretch. And really doesn't have to do with the issue at hand in this thread.


Is there any evidence that this man was denied his rights in the 20 years he served awaiting execution? And, was it brought up at his appeal hearing, which I know he had? Do we have Mexican government officials stating they were not contacted at any point prior to this execution?

 

[TerryMathews]

so you're saying there is a legal precedent that invalidates the term "murder."? Say, as long as the state sanctions it, it can't be considered murder?

Keep trying Bush league.

 

[smackababy]

so you're saying there is a legal precedent that invalidates the term "murder."? Say, as long as the state sanctions it, it can't be considered murder?

What he should be saying is the murder is defined as the unlawful act of killing someone with premeditation. That can't happen in abortion cases, as it is lawful to have one.

 

[TerryMathews]

Is there any evidence that this man was denied his rights in the 20 years he served awaiting execution? And, was it brought up at his appeal hearing, which I know he had? Do we have Mexican government officials stating they were not contacted at any point prior to this execution?

You know as well as I do that the answer to all those questions is no. The only thing anyone's been able to find is Johnny Cochran saying "if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."

 

[zinfamous]

Keep trying Bush league.

No, don't think I have to, anymore. The point is made.

You could concede like a man, or just be a douche, I guess.

 

[PRAISE__SATAN]

Because they deserve it. And it's not murder.

Of course it's murder. A man murders, the government murders, what difference does it make? The government is every individual's enemy. Why would you want to grant it the freedom to murder? I don't understand.
Do you want the government to murder for the greater good? You ignore the individual in favour of the collective. Are you a communist?

 

[smackababy]

Of course it's murder. A man murders, the government murders, what difference does it make? The government is every individual's enemy. Why would you want to grant it the freedom to murder? I don't understand.
Do you want the government to murder for the greater good? You ignore the individual in favour of the collective. Are you a communist?

So, I'll bite and feed the troll.

The difference is that it is not murder. Although, I'm sure there are instances where 'the government', which I'll assume you mean the US government, both state and federal, commit murders. Does the government kill people? Yes. Is it murder? In the overwhelming majority of cases, no.

Do you understand what murder is? No.