Texas Grid is on the Edge Again!

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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Comanche Peak unit 1 tripped due to a feed water pump problem.
Swell. No redundancy. It's like all PWR plants suck.
It should be noted that a nuclear power plant going off line doesn’t mean they had an accident with the core or are in danger of releasing radiation. There are many parts of a power plant that can fail that could prevent them from dumping electricity onto the grid that have no or minimal impact on the nuclear part of the plant.
Yeah, without context, I was wonder what the hell happened.
 

Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
1,099
1,741
106
How long is the public abuse going to be tolerated?
Texans big oil is not your friend. They wont even give you a reach around but every politician has a hand in big oil.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
How long is the public abuse going to be tolerated?
Texans big oil is not your friend. They wont even give you a reach around but every politician has a hand in big oil.
Texasans apparently love to be shat on, and will continue voting for corrupt republican politicians for at least another decade or two.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
23,782
4,965
146
Maybe another question is what's the normal price for ercot generating a MW hr?
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
7,120
5,998
136
Steve, if you had to hazard a guess, what would that translate to cents per KwH for the public for that 90 min timeframe?
That's $5 per kW hr for anyone buying wholesale in that timeframe. It's averaged out into the bills regular people pay.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,659
3,214
136
That's $5 per kW hr for anyone buying wholesale in that timeframe. It's averaged out into the bills regular people pay.
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).
Maybe another question is what's the normal price for ercot generating a MW hr?
Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.
 
Reactions: Brovane

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
23,782
4,965
146
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).

Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.



Thanks Dave for posting that as I was going to ask about the transmission and delivery charges. Yes, when someone is paying $5.00/kWh generation, $ 0.05 seems
insignificant. But when rates are $0.10 to $0.14/kWh, the transmission/distribution changes are 1/2 to a 1/3 of the cost.

Where I live our utility company is called PG&E (I call it Pacific Graft and Extortion)
I pay $.356/KWh. Of that, transmission and delivery is over 1/2 the cost (actually 57%)
Generation rate - $0.137 kWh
PG7E Delivery rate - $0.205 kWh
PG&E PCIA/FF - $0.014 kWh
 
Reactions: uclaLabrat

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
7,120
5,998
136
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).

Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.
That wasn't a very brief $5000 per MW hr price. It was for nearly an hour and a half yesterday.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).

Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.
What are you using for your thermal efficiency? At 36% it would cost about $5/MWhr. Many co-generators can get significantly higher than that.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,659
3,214
136
What are you using for your thermal efficiency? At 36% it would cost about $5/MWhr. Many co-generators can get significantly higher than that.
Co-gen aren't typically on the margin for power supply, that's more base-load. I was assuming a natural gas combustion turbine, which runs around 8,000 BTU/kwh. And even a good co-gen runs more like 5,000 BTU/kwh heat rate for the electricity - or $12.5/MWhr.

Edit: 100% efficient conversion would be 3412 BTU/kWH ~ so a 36% efficiency would be 9500 BTU/kWH (but that's a pretty lousy co-gen, they should get ~65% efficiency for electricity generation, or theoretically better if you count the combined heat and can utilize low pressure steam)
 
Last edited:

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,354
11,725
136
Jeezus ...and I bitch about our electrical rates.

System Charge
$39 per month

Energy Charge
$0.0911 per kWh
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).

Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.
What? That way cheaper than up here in the North East! Now, we don't have power outages, but those rates are, on the net, half of what I pay.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Co-gen aren't typically on the margin for power supply, that's more base-load. I was assuming a natural gas combustion turbine, which runs around 8,000 BTU/kwh. And even a good co-gen runs more like 5,000 BTU/kwh heat rate for the electricity - or $12.5/MWhr.

Edit: 100% efficient conversion would be 3412 BTU/kWH ~ so a 36% efficiency would be 9500 BTU/kWH (but that's a pretty lousy co-gen, they should get ~65% efficiency for electricity generation, or theoretically better if you count the combined heat and can utilize low pressure steam)

I realized I messed up my math, I'm now getting $20 as well.
 
Last edited:

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,659
3,214
136
What? That way cheaper than up here in the North East! Now, we don't have power outages, but those rates are, on the net, half of what I pay.
Texas is sitting right on top of incredible energy resources and infrastructure - including natural gas, wind, solar, pipelines, and lots of open land for the wind/solar. Power should be cheap there, if anywhere.

In contrast, New York city, for example, costs more than twice as much just to get natural gas (would be substantially cheaper, but for a ton of NIMBY blocking pipelines), has limited solar, and currently basically zero wind energy utilized. And NIMBY working hard to try to block offshore wind resource development (although even if developed, offshore wind is still incredibly expensive).
 
Reactions: Ajay

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,651
10,515
136
Don't forget the $0.05/kW-hr or so for transmission/distribution system charge that customers also pay on top of the base power price (ok, admittedly lost in the rounding in this case... but in more typical conditions makes up a significant portion of bill).

Average residential price in 2022 was $0.14/kW-hr, currently have options to lock in just a bit over $0.10/kW-hr for a new 12 month residential contract. Most folks are on fixed price contracts, so this price spike won't impact them at all - until they renew.

Another way to look at it, with natural gas prices hovering at around $2.50/mmbtu, a reasonably efficient gas plant costs around $20/MW-hr in just fuel costs to run, compared to that very brief $5000/MW-hr price. Add on the ~$0.05 T&D charges, a marginal-cost basis would be about $0.07/kW-hr to the customer - if the gas generator were built, maintained, and operated for free, and just charged for fuel.
What no resort fees?
 
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