Texture shimmering/aliasing problem on high end GPU's?

[Munky]

Well, either XGI or S3, or maybe even Intel, but I'd like to see more competition. Although I'd also be interested in seeing just what AMD/Ati comes up with in the next few years.

 

[sisq0kidd]

Originally posted by: munky
Well, either XGI or S3, or maybe even Intel, but I'd like to see more competition. Although I'd also be interested in seeing just what AMD/Ati comes up with in the next few years.

Even though I want more companies to get in the enthusiast vga market, I'm not sure I want Intel to get in. I have a feeling if they want to get in, they'll make it so they'll be the only player in the game.

/conspiracy theorist

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: sisq0kidd
***This thread is now about XGI***

You think they'll take another stab at the enthusiast market?

Bah! Fear the S3 Chrome!
http://www.s3graphics.com/en/products/chrome_s27/

Heh, that doesn't look that impressive

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The crowning point is where Ackmed warned someone about calling him a fanboy, even though he has used that term among others many times.

I said it wasnt smart, and that we all should not have to resort to it. Feel free to find one time when I called someone a fanboy. Dont put words in my mouth, back up your claims. You and gstanfor have a bad habit of doing this.

Here you're playing a semantic game with the technicalities of your words. You clutch to the fact that you stated "it wasn't smart" when Wreckage paraphrased your words to mean fanboy. I did the same thing asking you who told you that you "sucked" cock. He never said you "sucked" it, you added that verb on your own. IIRC, he said you "liked" the cock. Just a taste of your own tatic. The point is, your words can literally say one thing and metaphorically imply another.

Taste of my own "tactic"? Sorry, no. wreckage claimed I have called others fanboys. When I have not. I asked him to back it up with facts, he cant, because I didnt. redbox also PM'd me with more insults, and one of which, was what I quoted him saying. You dont know all you think you do.

I didnt cry to the mods, and Im not upset...Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

You didn't cry to the mods, but now you're saying you did?

The guy who I "cried to the mods" did. I reported it, because there is zero reason to say such a thing to anyone.

The true adult would know how to ignore immaturity--that or have fun insulting that immaturity. I have to say that I tend to agree with Wreckage's reasoning in not needing the interference of a Mod unless there are technical problems with software and such. If someone is out of hand, I believe I'm adult enough to deal with it and don't need the aid of another adult with a ban button. To each their own I guess.[/quote]

No, Im not saying I cried to them. I reported someone being childish, they got themself banned. As the mod said. "The guy who I "cried to the mods" did." was supposed to say "The guy who said I "cried to the mods" did." I mistyped.

Sorry, you're not doing well again this time. You just cant win, might as well give up. Trolling after me time and time again, isnt very productive for you. Even wreckage dropped it, because he knew he didnt have a leg to stand on. "fading to black" again, so to speak.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

No, Im not saying I cried to them. I reported someone being childish

Sounds a lot like crying to me. I would bet redbox is not the only one you cried about either.

This is how I see you posting on this forum among others.......
http://www.break.com/top_rated/patiencechild.html

 

[josh6079]

No, Im not saying I cried to them. I reported someone being childish...

Call it what you want, your definition of "reporting" and Wreckage's definition of "crying" are in the same context here.

wreckage claimed I have called others fanboys. When I have not.

Perhaps you haven't literally used the word "fanboy" but you've substituted it with "pals"--Link
Do you have any proof to back up the claim that they are pals? Do you have "a leg to stand on" with that claim?

Sorry, you're not doing well again this time. You just cant win, might as well give up. Trolling after me time and time again, isnt very productive for you. Even wreckage dropped it, because he knew he didnt have a leg to stand on. "fading to black" again, so to speak.

Asking you to clarify what you meant and pointing out your hypocrocies is trolling now?

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: sisq0kidd
***This thread is now about XGI***

You think they'll take another stab at the enthusiast market?

XGI has long sold off their desktop 3D graphics division.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Ackmed

No, Im not saying I cried to them. I reported someone being childish

Sounds a lot like crying to me. I would bet redbox is not the only one you cried about either.

This is how I see you posting on this forum among others.......
http://www.break.com/top_rated/patiencechild.html

So we're just supposed to look the other way when someone is very rude, and tells someone that they like the cock, call names, etc? Sorry, but no. Its against the rules for a reason. If there wasnt any rules, this place would be useless.

Originally posted by: josh6079

No, Im not saying I cried to them. I reported someone being childish...

Call it what you want, your definition of "reporting" and Wreckage's definition of "crying" are in the same context here.

wreckage claimed I have called others fanboys. When I have not.

Perhaps you haven't literally used the word "fanboy" but you've substituted it with "pals"--Link
Do you have any proof to back up the claim that they are pals? Do you have "a leg to stand on" with that claim?

Sorry, you're not doing well again this time. You just cant win, might as well give up. Trolling after me time and time again, isnt very productive for you. Even wreckage dropped it, because he knew he didnt have a leg to stand on. "fading to black" again, so to speak.

Asking you to clarify what you meant and pointing out your hypocrocies is trolling now?

Crying, and reporting are not the same thing. Reporting someone for breaking the rules, is done every single day, in virtually every single thing that rules are in place. As the mod said, he got himself banned.

So now you're saying that calling someone a "fanboy", and "pals" are the same thing? Please. I said pals, because they stick together. You and wreckage post in the same manner. Same for gastanfor, and shineider. Its pretty obvious in this topic alone. Find one thread where I called anyone a name, you wont find one.

There wasnt any hypocrisy. If you want to find some, you could point out the ones I did from wreckage and ganstanfor. And you too. You tried to claim calling someone a "fanboy" and "pals" is the sane, yet you mention nothing about gastanfos comment of "ackmed & co". Thats hypocrisy at its finest. They both got discredited, and their statements refuted. Yet not one peep about that.

Its a fact that shimmering is worse on NV cards, than ATi cards. Its also a fact that ATi cards shimmer. Its time to get over it, and move on. Im done dragging this thru the mud.

 

[josh6079]

Crying, and reporting are not the same thing. Reporting someone for breaking the rules, is done every single day, in virtually every single thing that rules are in place. As the mod said, he got himself banned.

Where did I say they were the same thing? I said that both you and Wreckage used different terms to imply the same thing.

I said pals, because they stick together. You and wreckage post in the same manner. Same for gastanfor, and shineider. Its pretty obvious in this topic alone.

So posting in the same thread in a similar manner or asking similar questions means that two people are pals? I guess that means you and Wreckage are pals since you post in the same place and do it with a similar "manner"...:roll:

That claim isn't even evidence, which I specifically asked for. Instead you just gave your opinion as to why they are "pals". If you would look at previous posts made between Wreckage, Gstanfor, and I you would see that we don't always agree but certainly can come to terms. If you're going to press so hard for facts with other peopels statements, it would be curtious to extend that expectation to yourself.

There wasnt any hypocrisy. If you want to find some, you could point out...

...the fact that you lied about redbox PMing you insults. That is hypocrisy:

redbox also PM'd me with more insults, and one of which, was what I quoted him saying. You dont know all you think you do.

Care to prove this tangent? I'd like to see evidence that suggest he has insulted you through PM's directed towards your inbox. To my knowledge, his last PM he sent to you was concerning networking, Windows 64, and a motherboard, not insults. That tid-bit above was misinformative BS in every way.

As far as physical image ailments on weapon models, I've got a strange issue with BF2. It might just need a reinstall, but do any other ATI owners notice--in a confined way--"artifacting" on ONLY the guns? It doesn't happen all of the time, and it also depends on the weapon being used, but it seems as though the lines differentiating the textures and parts of the guns seem to wiggle and distort. I'll try to post up a clip later.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Nova6
It reduces it on large repetitively-textured areas, but not entirely. On areas like stairways and the others I've mentioned, it doesn't do a thing.

Right, that's where HQ textures and AF should help (though I guess not cure, either b/c both companies have hardwired their texture filtering shortcuts into their chips or b/c the game devs aren't trying hard enough). Stairways are an edge-aliasing issue (well, unless they're rain-slicked and reflective, in which case we're back at shaders). FYI, edge aliasing's reduced by "regular" AA, not adaptive/transparency AA.

You're probably right about this, but as I said in my first post, turning on adaptive AA has the very annoying side effect of an ugly colored line showing up at the top and left of the screen in some games, and those happen to be the ones I play the most at the moment. I hope ATI will fix that someday. As for the resolution, I usually play at 1280x1024, so that could also be it.

I'm trying to remember if I had that same line problem at some point with a 9100 or 9800, but I haven't seen it for a while. Again, adaptive AA (AAA) isn't the solution to sparkly stair edges, regular AA is. (I said I was sorry about being pedantic, right? ) And 12x10 is a decent res, so I don't think that's a huge issue (though obviously you could go a lot higher with a X1900XT in those games if you weren't limited by your LCD).

For character and weapon models, I'm not referring to their outlines. I see slight shimmering moiré patterns on them (exactly like the ground texture shimmering) when the image is in motion. Nothing reduces that though.

Weird. I can't tell if that's texture or shader shimmer. I mean, moire is almost certainly texture, but I thought that was visible on large, flat, repetitively textured sections, not on fairly angly ppl and swords. But I wouldn't know unless I saw at least a screenshot, and even then we probably won't be able to do anything about it, so let's move on.

Hell, I didn't think there was anything wrong with my X1900 XTX until I read about shimmering on a hardware site about a month after I got the card.

Heh, that's the worst.

Also, I'm certain it's not a monitor issue. I tested this on a DVI LCD and a run of the mill cheap CRT. There was no IQ difference except for the usual CRT vs. LCD stuff, such as black level and the like.

OK, so that narrows it down to the card or the games. Crap, it's square one! Where did he come from?!

I'm probably just being way too picky. I'm still looking forward to seeing how G80/R600 will do in terms of IQ, though. Thanks again for the help.

NP, and I don't think you're being too picky with a high-end video card that basically becomes outdated in a few years. I guess your case (limited to 12x10) is one where SLIing two mid-range cards might be preferable to a single high-end one just b/c of the higher IQ options in XFire/SLI AA--assuming that XF/SLI works well in the games you play.

Apparently G80 will bring a new AA engine (I don't expect much more than ATI's packing in the MSAA dept in terms of samples, but there are slides out there of 8x and even 16x MSAA in DX10.1). I'm hoping both'll bring better overall texture filtering to the table, at least as an option, but I'm not holding my breath. As for shader aliasing, if you're card doesn't do SSAA, then it's up to developers to solve, AFAIK.

 

[BFG10K]

So how do you elimiante shimmering w/WoW on a x1800?

You might not be able to through filtering alone as it could be a problem with the game, not with the card's filtering.

Some rare games shimmer no matter what because of how their renderer interacts with their artwork assets.

The only cure for this situation is large amounts of super-sampling applied to the entire scene.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: josh6079
blah blah blah

Ignoring you, and your useless trolling from now on. When you can discuss things in an positive manner, let me know. You've proven to be hypocritical, and add nothing to the discussion. Im just sorry I went along for so long, not again.

To the subject at hand, NV and ATi both shimmer. NV shimmers wose. Much worse if HQ is not selected. Thats the bottom line. Ive read that turnng off Anisotropic opts (texture stage opts) off helps too. (HQ doesnt change these)

 

[TheRyuu]

Just to clear something up.

Shimmering is those lines you see on the ground when you move right? (the crawling thing?)

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: josh6079
blah blah blah

Ignoring you, and your useless trolling from now on. When you can discuss things in an positive manner, let me know. You've proven to be hypocritical, and add nothing to the discussion. Im just sorry I went along for so long, not again.

To the subject at hand, NV and ATi both shimmer. NV shimmers wose. Much worse if HQ is not selected. Thats the bottom line. Ive read that turnng off Anisotropic opts (texture stage opts) off helps too. (HQ doesnt change these)

Well, guess what? You read wrong! (about HQ not changing it - it can cause shimmering)

The anisotropic texture stage optimization (also known as the aniso sample optimization) constitutes one of the 3 main nvidia optimizations affected by the quality modes.

The other two are the Trilinear optimization (switches between trilinear and brilinear) and the Ansio sample optimization.

Trilinear Optimization nv's definition
Anisotropic Filter Optimization nv's definition
Anisotropic Sample Optimization nv's definition

I'd love to learn when you read such a claim by the way -- at a focus group meeting/forum/chatroom perchance?

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: wizboy11
Just to clear something up.

Shimmering is those lines you see on the ground when you move right? (the crawling thing?)

No, that's a bow-wave effect and is caused by brilinear filtering. See optimization definitions above.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
It's funny that this thread started out as an ATI user noticing that he has shimmering and how "certain" people immediately had to bring NVIDIA into it. NVIDIA has nothing to do with this.

'funny' as in 'haha' or funny as in 'pathetic how trolling fanboys have to jump in and stir up crap'?

what i find 'funny' is you make this statement when it's one of your devout flag waving nvidia buddies who fired the first shot...

ati is not withoug 'shimmering'. i don't recall anyone who ever claimed there was none whatsoever. it is however more apparent on current nvidia hardware (my 6800gt doesn't exhibit this anywhere near the degree my 7800 does), especially at default settings.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

BTW, some of you might remember a thread of mine 1 year ago, discussion exactly shimmering on WoW and GW. At that time, I decided for the Nvidia card because shimmering was really worse on the ATI version (I used the X1800XL on the comparison).

That was not changed until CAT 6.6 - you cannot control LOD Bias Clamp but ATI has turned off its optimization on HQ settings. Ony after this ATI turned to be better on this area.

So how do you elimiante shimmering w/WoW on a x1800? I'm running the latest drivers, "disabled" Catalyst AI, "forced" HQ AF and still can't get rid of the shimmering. It's an awful lot better then it is by default- but it is certainly not gone. All the way up to 2048x1536 w/16x HQ AF- it's still there. Particularly annoying on road textures out a middling to far amount depending on the camera angle.

you can't completely get rid of this... wow is one of the bigger culprits in displaying this effect. it is however not as prominent on my XT as it is on my wife's GT.. but they both display this, and AFAIK there is now way to completely eliminate this.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Nova6
It reduces it on large repetitively-textured areas, but not entirely. On areas like stairways and the others I've mentioned, it doesn't do a thing.

that's an AA issue, not texture filtering. try increasing resolution and turning up the AA.

You're probably right about this, but as I said in my first post, turning on adaptive AA has the very annoying side effect of an ugly colored line showing up at the top and left of the screen in some games, and those happen to be the ones I play the most at the moment. I hope ATI will fix that someday. As for the resolution, I usually play at 1280x1024, so that could also be it.

weird.. mine does this also, but only randomly (it will appear and disappear within WoW). didn't realize it was adaptive AA causing this! learned something new

You're also probably right about this too. For character and weapon models, I'm not referring to their outlines. I see slight shimmering moiré patterns on them (exactly like the ground texture shimmering) when the image is in motion. Nothing reduces that though.

i don't see this effect.. hmm...

Well, it's actually quite possible my 6600GT had IQ problems too and that I just didn't notice them. Hell, I didn't think there was anything wrong with my X1900 XTX until I read about shimmering on a hardware site about a month after I got the card.

i don't think you're suffering from faulty memory.. the effect is more pronounced on my 7800 over my 6800...

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Ive read that turnng off Anisotropic opts (texture stage opts) off helps too. (HQ doesnt change these)

HQ turns all optimizations off (at least all the ones that you can control)

didnt we already have this dicussion a few weeks ago when you said the same thing that you just said now??

 

[CaiNaM]

since GF4 there are some filtering optimizations which cannot be turned off on current nv hardware. everything uses angle-dependant AF opts (ati can use angle-independant AF via HQAF option).

it's a good bet this will be changed w/ G80 (this is a good thing).

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: josh6079
blah blah blah

Ignoring you, and your useless trolling from now on. When you can discuss things in an positive manner, let me know. You've proven to be hypocritical...

You're ignoring me by telling me your ignoring me? Nice one.

You aren't going to address the fact that you lied because you know you did. redbox never insulted you through PM's and you won't prove it because you can't.

I'm more than willing to agree with you when you are making sense and contributing things factual, but downplaying redbox's character in an attempt to maturitize your reason for reporting him just proves that what he said about you may be true. Instead of using rhetoric, mirroring my acusations and claiming I did something hypocritical when indeed I didn't, prove the hogwash you're claiming and give me nothing to go off of. If I'm wrong, show me.

...and add nothing to the discussion.

You're right. You certainly do "add" things whether they are true or not.

What needs to be added as far as the texture shimmering issue anyway? The only people who are continuing to discuss about it are the ones who know how to deal with it.