Texture shimmering/aliasing problem on high end GPU's?

[josh6079]

I'll repeat what I said im my PM to you - "You don't have the first clue what you are talking about..."

Let's not even get started on the falsities you've put on Anandtech's servers.

nvidia users can adjust LOD as well.

I never claimed they couldn't.

This ***does not*** influence or control shimmering! The LOD bias clamp is an entirely different control and one ***introduced specifically*** to combat shimmering.

Given how you can't even recognize the difference between ATI's control panel and the Tray Tools control panel, I think it will suffice to say that you yourself "...don't have the first clue what you are talking about..."

I don't understand why people are still concerned with texture shimmering since most know how to avoid it. The algorthims are not going to change from now until DX10 hardware and the fixes/minimizations are already known. In truth, the only thing that makes this issue an issue anymore is people like Gstanfor who can't get over the fact that ATI's AF is better while Nvidia's AA is better. Shimmering happens more on Nvidia hardware, and that comes from people who have actually used both (and can recognize their default control panels...unlike some.)

 

[Wreckage]

It's funny that this thread started out as an ATI user noticing that he has shimmering and how "certain" people immediately had to bring NVIDIA into it. NVIDIA has nothing to do with this.

The crowning point is where Ackmed warned someone about calling him a fanboy, even though he has used that term among others many times.

Ackmed, do you really have to cry to the mods every time someone upsets you? When you get old enough not to tell on people and can have an adult conversation, maybe people won?t upset you so much.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

ATI AND NVIDIA HAVE TEH SHIMMERINGZ


END

OF

THREAD

 

[Gstanfor]

Your x800XL is not an x1800/1900/1600/1300 - it is irrelevant to the thread.
Except R5xx AF quality is better than R4xx quality so your comment is disingenuous at best.

Tell that to the OP....

 

[Rock Hydra]

I must be like the only person, but the shimmering is tolerable and doesn't bother me.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Oh and I must say that ATi control panel is hilarious - since when have DXTC and bump maaping been considered "tweaks" to be turned on and off?...

That's not the ATI control panel, it's a user-made application called ATI Tray Tools.

It's obvious who's never even used an ATI card here. :roll: No wonder you think Nvidia shimmering isn't worse.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

I wish the air over hot pavement would stop shimmering. Damn index of refraction!

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
I wish the air over hot pavement would stop shimmering. Damn index of refraction!

Try using the "sunglasses" patch it can cut down on this kind of shimmering.

 

[Navaros]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

2) Shimmering can be effectively controlled in the nvidia drivers. This thread has given no indication thus far that the same is true for ATi owners...

I think you made this up.

Oh really? Care to place some substance behinds your beliefs?

Where for instance is the ATi equivelant of LOD bias clamp? (the main factor in shimmer reduction regardless of quality mode)?

Back a couple of years ago I noticed a lot of shimmering in Guild Wars with a GeForce Ti 4600. I searched around and found the alleged solution to adjust the LOD bias clamp in the NVIDIA control panel. But it didn't work. Shimmering didn't go away. I later upgraded to a GeForce FX 5800 and the problem was identical.

I knew it didn't go away right away because the edges of the pole on the main title screen would always shimmer profusely no matter what the LOD bias clamp setting was.

Unfortunately that title screen has since been changed by the devs hence it's not as easy to test that particular screen on modern hardware, but based on my personal experience with shimmering Hell in Guild Wars on NVIDIA cards that the LOD bias clamp has little to no effect on, it wouldn't surprise me if the current high end GPU's still have that problem.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: Ackmed
... rabbit rabbit rabbit ...

1. Would you care to show me where I said that NV is the only one that shimmered? What I said was that, a large LCD shows shimmering more. That goes for both ATi and NV.

2. Reduced. Still not to the same quality of ATi.

All of this has been said before, you and others, try to put words in other peoples mouths. NV shimmers worse than ATi. Get over that fact. They both can improve on it, and hopefully they will..

1) You have implied this multiple times. You are on record as stating that you changed from nvidia to ATI because of the shimmering.

2) rubbish!

As to the last bit, yes, both IHV's need to seriously improve their IQ game. That I will agree with.

So now you too are backtracking. You claimed;
[/quote]1) Shimmering isn't just a nvidia problem unlike what ackmed & co would have you believe with his "gigantic" monitor.[/quote]

And you have zero proof to back up this claim. Dont put words in my mouth. I have never said that shimmering is only an NV problem. What I have said time and time again, is that NV shimmers worse than ATi. And now reviews are saying the same thing.
I didnt imply anything. I didnt say it, dont claim that I did.

Its not rubbish. Its called the truth. You and some others just cant accept that ATi shimmers less. They do, get over it.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
It's funny that this thread started out as an ATI user noticing that he has shimmering and how "certain" people immediately had to bring NVIDIA into it. NVIDIA has nothing to do with this.

Did you even read the first post? And then the second?

Originally posted by: Nova6

I recently had the chance to try out a 7900GTX and I had the exact same problem except that the shimmering on ground textures was considerably worse than with the X1900 XTX.

As you can see, the OP brought NV into it. Obviously its part of the discussion.

And then the second post, was trolling in its finest.

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
It's nice to see someone document what the fanatics on this forum would never admit to - especially when they are busy accusing the opposition of suffering the same problem...

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The crowning point is where Ackmed warned someone about calling him a fanboy, even though he has used that term among others many times.

Ackmed, do you really have to cry to the mods every time someone upsets you? When you get old enough not to tell on people and can have an adult conversation, maybe people won?t upset you so much.

I said it wasnt smart, and that we all should not have to resort to it. Feel free to find one time when I called someone a fanboy. Dont put words in my mouth, back up your claims. You and gstanfor have a bad habit of doing this.

I didnt cry to the mods, and Im not upset. When Im old enough? Thats pretty funny. Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: Navaros

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

2) Shimmering can be effectively controlled in the nvidia drivers. This thread has given no indication thus far that the same is true for ATi owners...

I think you made this up.

Oh really? Care to place some substance behinds your beliefs?

Where for instance is the ATi equivelant of LOD bias clamp? (the main factor in shimmer reduction regardless of quality mode)?

Back a couple of years ago I noticed a lot of shimmering in Guild Wars with a GeForce Ti 4600. I searched around and found the alleged solution to adjust the LOD bias clamp in the NVIDIA control panel. But it didn't work. Shimmering didn't go away. I later upgraded to a GeForce FX 5800 and the problem was identical.

I knew it didn't go away right away because the edges of the pole on the main title screen would always shimmer profusely no matter what the LOD bias clamp setting was.

Unfortunately that title screen has since been changed by the devs hence it's not as easy to test that particular screen on modern hardware, but based on my personal experience with shimmering Hell in Guild Wars on NVIDIA cards that the LOD bias clamp has little to no effect on, it wouldn't surprise me if the current high end GPU's still have that problem.

Lol, Guild Wars back a couple of years ago......:roll: how long do you think Guild War is out?

BTW, some of you might remember a thread of mine 1 year ago, discussion exactly shimmering on WoW and GW. At that time, I decided for the Nvidia card because shimmering was really worse on the ATI version (I used the X1800XL on the comparison).

That was not changed until CAT 6.6 - you cannot control LOD Bias Clamp but ATI has turned off its optimization on HQ settings. Ony after this ATI turned to be better on this area.

As BFG mentioned also, once you use SSAA the fences, poles, tree and other stuff looks much better on the Nvidia card. It is hard to ATI based on that.

At the end, it really doesn't matter. Be happy with your purchase. Why do you all have to fight over and over to prove your card is better?

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Nova6
I've tried turning on HQ AF and forcing 16x Aniso, and while it does get rid of some shimmering, it definitely doesn't get rid of it all.

Does it reduce "shimmering" on large, repetitively-textured areas (like you mentioned, floors and walls), or on the specific areas you mention below?

I don't see this shimmering/aliasing on ground textures or on large surfaces like flat building walls, but it's very noticeable on character models, weapon models, tree leaves, blades of grass, fences, window sills, stairways, rooftops and the like. I also see it on large bodies of water.

That doesn't sound like the shimmer that can be reduced with LOD bias clamps or HQ filtering. Sorry if I'm being pedantic, as you obviously know how to enable AA and crank the res, but if you're referring to the outlines of all those objects, that sounds more like insufficient AA and possibly resolution. The water shimmer (and possibly the character and weapon shimmer, if you're not referring only to their outlines) may be due to shader aliasing, something that only super sampling AA will cure. Currently, only NV allows for some SSAA with single cards (with their >4x AA modes). (Both XFire and SLI use some SSAA in their respective dual-card AA modes, namely 8x and up.)

I recently had the chance to try out a 7900GTX and I had the exact same problem except that the shimmering on ground textures was considerably worse than with the X1900 XTX.

This sounds like the "shimmer" most ppl refer to.

I don't recall ever seeing anything like this back on my old 6600GT, which I've unfortunately sold to a friend. It never occured to me that much more powerful high end video cards would have worse IQ!

I'm a little confused by this. Did NV reduce texture filtering quality b/w the GF6 and the GF7 series? If so, and if you're just referring to the difference b/w your GF6 and then your GF7, that's that. If you're saying you also see worse IQ with your X1900, that's a bit more puzzling.

Otherwise--and I'm really reaching here--if you're using a CRT, I wonder if your (midrange) 6600GT had worse (not as tack-sharp) signal quality than the (enthusiast) 7900 and X1900, and so perhaps masked some of the "shimmering" you described? This is a real stretch, though, as it only applies to CRTs was reportedly basically fixed back in the GF4 days.

Although ... if you're using an LCD, maybe these visual problems are inherent to the display?

The games I've tried are Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, Half-Life 2, Titan Quest, Serious Sam 2 and Oblivion. All of them show this shimmering effect.

I know TechReport now regularly states that NV shimmers more than ATI in Oblivion, but I don't recall them saying so with GW or HL2 (the only other two games in your list that they regularly test).

I wish I could provide videos of the problem, but I don't really know how to.

I suppose you could use FRAPS, or you could just check out FiringSquad's article on the subject to see if it matches your experience.

Madellga, when you say "properly set" do you mean you have SSAA (4xS [if it's still called that] or 8x AA) enabled with the 7950GX2? Edit: Just read your last post, I'm guessing when you say NV shimmers less you mean before SSAA.

 

[josh6079]

Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

Are you implying Wreckage or Gstanfor claimed that? Where has anyone said that you like to "suck" cock?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

Are you implying Wreckage or Gstanfor claimed that? Where has anyone said that you like to "suck" cock?

LOL! :laugh:

I think he is just trying to get people in trouble.

Either that or he has issues far beyond this forum's ability to solve.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: josh6079

Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

Are you implying Wreckage or Gstanfor claimed that? Where has anyone said that you like to "suck" cock?

LOL! :laugh:

I think he is just trying to get people in trouble.

Either that or he has issues far beyond this forum's ability to solve.

That was the post that got redbox a vacation for a month :laugh:

Anywho...I also notice shimmering on my X1900AIW. I've left it on default quality (which is low CAT A.I. I believe), but use 16x HQ AF in most of my games. I only see it in Natural Selection, though. It's an older game based off the HL1 engine. You know...long, tiled floors. Repetitive looking walls. Perfect candidate for shimmering.

It's pretty noticeable sometimes. I should probably disable CAT A.I. completely and see if that helps. If not, no big deal. I don't see shimmer anywhere else (HL2 and its respective mods, Oblivion).

I used to get horribly bad shimmer in NS, Guild Wars, and FarCry with my 7600GT, but after switching to HQ and going with a bit of advice from Gstanfor, I got most of it to go away. NS was still being a brat, though. That game just loves to shimmer, no matter what you're running. Hopefully next gen architectures will seriously improve IQ over current generations.

 

[BFG10K]

That doesn't sound like the shimmer that can be reduced with LOD bias clamps or HQ filtering. Sorry if I'm being pedantic, as you obviously know how to enable AA and crank the res, but if you're referring to the outlines of all those objects, that sounds more like insufficient AA and possibly resolution.

This is actually a good point.

It's quite possible when certain people talk about shimmer they are actually talking about problems associated with low resolution and/or low AA because they don't actually know what shimmering is.

If someone is running a low resolution like 1280x1024 then Q -> HQ will make little difference because that isn't a shimmering problem.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

Are you implying Wreckage or Gstanfor claimed that? Where has anyone said that you like to "suck" cock?

The guy who I "cried to the mods" did. I reported it, because there is zero reason to say such a thing to anyone. wreckage claimed I went and cried to the mods, because someone said that to me, and got banned for a week. He thinks because I reported him to the mods, Im not old enough for an adult conversation. I said, talking like that, is not having an adult conversation. Its pretty obvious which is more of an adult conversation, the one who calls names, says such things as that, or the one who doesnt. Which is why I said its not wise to call names, mods are now more active.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The crowning point is where Ackmed warned someone about calling him a fanboy, even though he has used that term among others many times.

I said it wasnt smart, and that we all should not have to resort to it. Feel free to find one time when I called someone a fanboy. Dont put words in my mouth, back up your claims. You and gstanfor have a bad habit of doing this.

Here you're playing a semantic game with the technicalities of your words. You clutch to the fact that you stated "it wasn't smart" when Wreckage paraphrased your words to mean fanboy. I did the same thing asking you who told you that you "sucked" cock. He never said you "sucked" it, you added that verb on your own. IIRC, he said you "liked" the cock. Just a taste of your own tatic. The point is, your words can literally say one thing and metaphorically imply another.

I didnt cry to the mods, and Im not upset...Do you think having an adult conversation is telling someone they "suck cock", and name calling? Perhaps in grade school.

You didn't cry to the mods, but now you're saying you did?

The guy who I "cried to the mods" did. I reported it, because there is zero reason to say such a thing to anyone.

The true adult would know how to ignore immaturity--that or have fun insulting that immaturity. I have to say that I tend to agree with Wreckage's reasoning in not needing the interference of a Mod unless there are technical problems with software and such. If someone is out of hand, I believe I'm adult enough to deal with it and don't need the aid of another adult with a ban button. To each their own I guess.

 

[BenSkywalker]

BTW, some of you might remember a thread of mine 1 year ago, discussion exactly shimmering on WoW and GW. At that time, I decided for the Nvidia card because shimmering was really worse on the ATI version (I used the X1800XL on the comparison).

That was not changed until CAT 6.6 - you cannot control LOD Bias Clamp but ATI has turned off its optimization on HQ settings. Ony after this ATI turned to be better on this area.

So how do you elimiante shimmering w/WoW on a x1800? I'm running the latest drivers, "disabled" Catalyst AI, "forced" HQ AF and still can't get rid of the shimmering. It's an awful lot better then it is by default- but it is certainly not gone. All the way up to 2048x1536 w/16x HQ AF- it's still there. Particularly annoying on road textures out a middling to far amount depending on the camera angle.

 

[Ulfhednar]

You can not eliminate shimmering on any card, only reduce it. Just happens to be worse on Nvidia hardware no matter how much you do about it.

 

[Nova6]

I didn't want to start an Nvidia vs. ATI debate here, but I guess it was inevitable. :laugh:

Does it reduce "shimmering" on large, repetitively-textured areas (like you mentioned, floors and walls), or on the specific areas you mention below?

It reduces it on large repetitively-textured areas, but not entirely. On areas like stairways and the others I've mentioned, it doesn't do a thing.

That doesn't sound like the shimmer that can be reduced with LOD bias clamps or HQ filtering. Sorry if I'm being pedantic, as you obviously know how to enable AA and crank the res, but if you're referring to the outlines of all those objects, that sounds more like insufficient AA and possibly resolution.

You're probably right about this, but as I said in my first post, turning on adaptive AA has the very annoying side effect of an ugly colored line showing up at the top and left of the screen in some games, and those happen to be the ones I play the most at the moment. I hope ATI will fix that someday. As for the resolution, I usually play at 1280x1024, so that could also be it.

The water shimmer (and possibly the character and weapon shimmer, if you're not referring only to their outlines) may be due to shader aliasing, something that only super sampling AA will cure. Currently, only NV allows for some SSAA with single cards (with their >4x AA modes). (Both XFire and SLI use some SSAA in their respective dual-card AA modes, namely 8x and up.)

You're also probably right about this too. For character and weapon models, I'm not referring to their outlines. I see slight shimmering moiré patterns on them (exactly like the ground texture shimmering) when the image is in motion. Nothing reduces that though.

I'm a little confused by this. Did NV reduce texture filtering quality b/w the GF6 and the GF7 series? If so, and if you're just referring to the difference b/w your GF6 and then your GF7, that's that. If you're saying you also see worse IQ with your X1900, that's a bit more puzzling.

Well, it's actually quite possible my 6600GT had IQ problems too and that I just didn't notice them. Hell, I didn't think there was anything wrong with my X1900 XTX until I read about shimmering on a hardware site about a month after I got the card.

Also, I'm certain it's not a monitor issue. I tested this on a DVI LCD and a run of the mill cheap CRT. There was no IQ difference except for the usual CRT vs. LCD stuff, such as black level and the like.

I'm probably just being way too picky. I'm still looking forward to seeing how G80/R600 will do in terms of IQ, though. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Nova6
I didn't want to start an Nvidia vs. ATI debate here, but I guess it was inevitable. :laugh:

Welcome to the AT video forum.

 

[sisq0kidd]

***This thread is now about XGI***

You think they'll take another stab at the enthusiast market?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: sisq0kidd
***This thread is now about XGI***

You think they'll take another stab at the enthusiast market?

Bah! Fear the S3 Chrome!
http://www.s3graphics.com/en/products/chrome_s27/