"Thank you, Israel"

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Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The rockets are not in fixed locations. Most of what is being launched can be transported on the back of a pickup; It does not require a massive support structure like a Scud does.

Therefore Israel has no actual targets to shoot at prior to a launch.
Where the rockets are being prepared to be launched from and trucks carrying them there are valid targets, but Israel has targeted much more than that.
True

Israel is determined to disrupt the infrastructure that the Hizbollah use to manuver. Also, targetting locations where they either are suspected to be or have been.

Hide in a school, the school becomes a target. Hide in an apartment building, the building becomes a target. Hide among the civilian population, they become targets.

Sad, but when the fighters attempt to utilize all resources available to them, then those resources become targets.

The days of slugging it out on a open plain no longer exists; thereofre attack your enemy with your strenghts. This is what both sides are doing. the GWI showed that you hit with overwhelming firepower, do not attempt to fight on an even footing; your own people become at risk.
I didn't suggest an even footing, I'm suggesting that Israel's overwhelming air superiority could be more effectively stopping the rocket attacks on their country by focusing their efforts on the rockets being prepared to be launched from and trucks carrying them.

You're not a general, so you have no idea what the "most effective use" of Israel's air power is. Its just another excuse for you to criticize the Jews for trying to defend themselves against their insane, primitive, religious fanatic enemies.

I'll never understand why trendies like you even try to defend groups that oppose every single thing the West stands for and would rather that we all submit to their medieval fairytales or cease to exist. THEY are the problem, and THEY want you and everyone like you dead...so where's the incentive here? Are you for the oppression of women, the brainwashing of children with racist hatred, and the iron grip of a ridiculous religion on entire countries? Are you for individuals never making peace no matter what they're offered so they can keep a war alive just to stay in power and/or commit genocide?

The Palestinians were offered exactly what they've claimed to want for the past 60 years of terrorism, hijackings, and suicide bombings, and they rejected it. The UN then passed a resolution that made demands on both Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah. Israel COMPLIED, and the other side DID NOT, and then elected Hamas to power! How fvcking stupid can you be? Do you REALLY believe this bvllsh*t? You're being manipulated by evil men, and you're swallowing the entire bag of lies and asking for more. So go read about 1559, then come back and tell me who is at fault here?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
The Palestinians were offered exactly what they've claimed to want for the past 60 years of terrorism, hijackings, and suicide bombings, and they rejected it.
Becuase I don't want to be being manipulated by evil men, can you please specifcy exactly what you are claiming here? What offer?

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
The Palestinians were offered exactly what they've claimed to want for the past 60 years of terrorism, hijackings, and suicide bombings, and they rejected it.
Becuase I don't want to be being manipulated by evil men, can you please specifcy exactly what you are claiming here? What offer?

That the Palestinians are manipulated by the Arabs who want the blood of the people of Israel.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Noobtastic

repeat: Everyone. In. Lebanon. Loves. Hezbollah.
That is utter BS, Hezbollah has minotry support in Lebanon, the majorty would like them gone but don't have the power to accomplish the task.

Uh?

Someone needs a little lesson in history.

Osama Bin Laden is to Pakistan as Hezbollah is to Lebanon.
Of course the government isn't going to openly praise Hezbollah, but have you ever seen them ask for military support in the past 4 years?

Hezbollah has 20,000 members and is gaining hundreds of recruits a month, even if the people didn't favor Hezbollah you think they could do anything about it? Of course not.

If Hezbollah is so hated through out the Middle East, why hasn't Lebanon or the Islamic countries done anything to get rid of them or ask for help?

Because they don't want to get rid of them. Every missle aimed at Israel is another clap for Allah.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. A minority of extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi, (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However, Jews did criticise the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

The Arab leadership (in and out of Palestine) opposed the plan, arguing that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000). Arab leaders also argued a large number of Arabs would be trapped in the Jewish State as a minority. While some Arab leaders opposed the right of the Jews for self-determination in the region, others criticised the amount and quality of land given to Israel. (The proposal, however, was not solely for the Jews in Palestine but for a secure homeland for Jews outside of Palestine.)

Great Britain refused to implement the plan arguing it was not acceptable to both sides. It also refused to share with the UN Palestine Commission the administration of Palestine during the transitional period, and decided to terminate the British mandate of Palestine on May 15th, 1948.[3]

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Noobtastic

repeat: Everyone. In. Lebanon. Loves. Hezbollah.
That is utter BS, Hezbollah has minotry support in Lebanon, the majorty would like them gone but don't have the power to accomplish the task.

Uh?

Someone needs a little lesson in history.

Osama Bin Laden is to Pakistan as Hezbollah is to Lebanon.
Of course the government isn't going to openly praise Hezbollah, but have you ever seen them ask for military support in the past 4 years?
I see the govenment on it's 3rd Prime Minster in just over 2 years; that bit of history shows me that they can barely hold themselves together let alone muster up the competents to request help.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

Oh...I see...you don't like history. That is understandable..

I mean, we don't need to know the history of the region to have some sort of understanding of what is happening over there...
 

SpeedZealot369

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2006
2,778
1
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Israel is defending itself.

Israel never initiates violance, only responds to it, it is their right to defend themselves.

Hezballah are cowards, hiding beind civilians and children/wives. If you think the lebenese are innocent, then blame hezballah for this "massacre" (I laugh everytime I hear someone say that word here, it's absurd), not Israel.

/end thread
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

Oh...I see...you don't like history. That is understandable..

I mean, we don't need to know the history of the region to have some sort of understanding of what is happening over there...
Sure we do, but that history has to be tempered by the fact that the people who rejected the 1947 plan are mostly all dead now.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
0
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Noobtastic
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Noobtastic

repeat: Everyone. In. Lebanon. Loves. Hezbollah.
That is utter BS, Hezbollah has minotry support in Lebanon, the majorty would like them gone but don't have the power to accomplish the task.

Uh?

Someone needs a little lesson in history.

Osama Bin Laden is to Pakistan as Hezbollah is to Lebanon.
Of course the government isn't going to openly praise Hezbollah, but have you ever seen them ask for military support in the past 4 years?
I see the govenment on it's 3rd Prime Minster in just over 2 years; that bit of history shows me that they can barely hold themselves together let alone muster up the competents to request help.


BINGO. But if a country is in distress, don't you think its allies should help?

Lebanon loves Hezbollah. The Arab world loves Hezbollah. If hezbollah was a threat against every country in the region, we most likely wouldn't be whining about Israel.

To sum it up, Israel is all alone. When you are faced against 7 jew hating, passive aggressive, muslim countries and the western world ignores everything it's very complicated and stressful.

Israel has cooperated while the neighboring countries have not.







Im actually surprised the attacks turned out this well.


I thought Israel was going to hurdle in a c-class warhead.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

Oh...I see...you don't like history. That is understandable..

I mean, we don't need to know the history of the region to have some sort of understanding of what is happening over there...
Sure we do, but that history has to be tempered by the fact that the people who rejected the 1947 plan are mostly all dead now.

That would be all fine and dandy if hate wasn't teached from generation to generation.
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

No I wasn't. The Palestinians rejected another more realistic deal, which included even East Jerusalem for their capital and return and/or compensation for the refugees, in 2000. It amounted to over 90% of what Palestine has claimed to want all these years and included points the Israelis were never willing to concede previously, and the Palestinians refused to even make a counter-proposal when given the chance to modify the terms!!! Which again proves their real objective is not a Palestinian state, but genocide and perpetual racist-religious war.

So once again, I get the idea that your arguments are based purely on gut feeling or political affiliation rather than a familiarity with the actual situation. How can you feel so strongly about something of which you know so little? Did you just flip a coin and pick a side?
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
So this is how you guys spend your time in here. I never read the politikin' forum but this looked good. Anyway I thought I might add a couple of thoughts here before bed.

First, I would hope that you guys are trying to persuade each other to understand what your saying and why you are saying it. Comments such as "Thank you, Israel" aren't going to do that. The derrogatory use of terms such as neocons, liberals, etc. are very abrasive and turn people off to what you are saying. They have become slurs that demean peoples beliefs. I hate how we argue with each other over things that are so important and that need to be resolved, but accomplish nothing because we are so damn defensive of our views and get off on humiliating others. I really think that we should stop the pointless arguments and try to persuade each other of what we believe is right (or the proper way to deal with a certain problem).

To the guy that used the horrid pictures of those dying over there to "prove" himself "right": you shouldn't just toss those around here like this. Did they die so you could prove your point? So you could rile some guy up? No. You could however use those pics to persuade these people to make sure that their deaths don't go in vain. And for that matter, so could your opponents.

That said, I would like to try to persuade you guys to understand why I think that Israel should not be demonized. Note that I am not saying that they are dealing with this in the best way. Nor do I think anyone here does. I just think that things get hairy in the fog of war and hind sight is always 20/20. When we dropped the bombs on Japan, we were pissed! We weren't about to say, "Hmm, let's think this one over, maybe thay're not so bad. What if we kill some of their civilians?" These are good and necessary questions that should be answered so that we can prepare for the future possiblity that history will repeat itself and we will have an optimal remedy ready.

But it is not upto us to answer them FOR the people with the problem. It is not for us to judge them, to be angered by them.

Nor do I think we should we shout their praise. We must remember that this is a horrible thing and should not belittle the death and suffering like this.

Do you people really think that Israel is happy about the civilian deaths or even about the deaths of the terrorist? I'm sure they are not. I'm sure they are regretfully doing this. I'm sure they wanted to just go along in their peaceful ways that they had been enjoying. But they felt a threat and decided to act in this way to protect themselves. Much like after we were attacked on 9/11. I remember feeling so violated and confused as to why someone would do something so horrible. But I thought, like most of the country, that something had to be done. I did not think that there was time to waste. And so I was all for the attacks on Afghanistan. Fortunately, I to this day do not regret that.

But it is not always like that. Sometimes we regret the things we do, and the conflicts that we get involved in. At this point I would think that the Israelis will probably be regretting this in the future. But hopefully I'm wrong and that this will usher in a new era of peace like after we bombed Japan (and Germany for that matter).

But one thing I do think the Israelis should be proud of is the fact that they are making this decision on their own and not blaming anyone else for their actions. Too many times I have heard that the Syrians are manipulating the Lebs, etc. Well, the Israelis are just doing what they think is right. There will be nobody else to blame after this except themselves.

Of course someone is going to say that the US is to blame because they make the weapons or defend the Israelis. But this is like saying that because China expots CDs to the US, it is China's fault that the US's landfills are filling up because the Americans love their free AOL CDs.
No, this is all them.

Well I guess that's it and sorry for the bad form, but I'm tired. Oh yeah. I almost forgot why I started this thing. Did anyone see the Israeli ambassador and the Lebanese ambassador speak before the UN council this morning? The Israeli ambassador was talking about replacing battlegrounds with playgrounds, etc. (Actually a really nice speech, hope there was truth in it) I can't remember what the Lebanese ambassador said but I remember that I thought that it was horrible. And that is one guy that needs to work on his persuasion skills. I think maybe it was because he didn't say that the Hez had done anything wrong, but just badmouthed Israel. Can someone confirm that for me?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

No I wasn't. The Palestinians rejected another more realistic deal, which included even East Jerusalem for their capital and return and/or compensation for the refugees, in 2000. It amounted to over 90% of what Palestine has claimed to want all these years and included points the Israelis were never willing to concede previously, and the Palestinians refused to even make a counter-proposal when given the chance to modify the terms!!! Which again proves their real objective is not a Palestinian state, but genocide and perpetual racist-religious war.

So once again, I get the idea that your arguments are based purely on gut feeling or political affiliation rather than a familiarity with the actual situation. How can you feel so strongly about something of which you know so little? Did you just flip a coin and pick a side?
Did you just flip a coin to trick yourself into misbelieving that I don't know what I'm talking about? Your claim was:

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
The Palestinians were offered exactly what they've claimed to want for the past 60 years of terrorism, hijackings, and suicide bombings, and they rejected it.
Becuase I don't want to be being manipulated by evil men, can you please specifcy exactly what you are claiming here? What offer?
Your argument of Camp David II doesn't back that claim.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That doesn't answer my question.

1947 Plan

A Two state country.. Palestine rejected it

Ah I suppose I should have realzed that Buck was reaching back into history nearly 60 years for his argument.

No I wasn't. The Palestinians rejected another more realistic deal, which included even East Jerusalem for their capital and return and/or compensation for the refugees, in 2000. It amounted to over 90% of what Palestine has claimed to want all these years and included points the Israelis were never willing to concede previously, and the Palestinians refused to even make a counter-proposal when given the chance to modify the terms!!! Which again proves their real objective is not a Palestinian state, but genocide and perpetual racist-religious war.

So once again, I get the idea that your arguments are based purely on gut feeling or political affiliation rather than a familiarity with the actual situation. How can you feel so strongly about something of which you know so little? Did you just flip a coin and pick a side?
Did you just flip a coin to trick yourself into misbelieving that I don't know what I'm talking about? Your claim was:

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
The Palestinians were offered exactly what they've claimed to want for the past 60 years of terrorism, hijackings, and suicide bombings, and they rejected it.
Becuase I don't want to be being manipulated by evil men, can you please specifcy exactly what you are claiming here? What offer?
Your argument of Camp David II doesn't back that claim.

You are going after pety details now. How about you try making a nice post on why the Palestinians deserve there own state after there actions the last 60 years.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: RichardE


You are going after pety details now. How about you try making a nice post on why the Palestinians deserve there own state after there actions the last 60 years.

I'll go you one better. I'll make a nice post on why the Palestinian people deserve their own state after the actions of the Israelis over the last 60 years.

PS Be sure to follow the embedded links at the original link.

Israeli Apartheid

By BC Editor Bruce Dixon

Imagine, if you will, a modern apartheid state with first, second and eleventh class citizens, all required to carry identification specifying their ethnic origin. First class citizens are obliged to serve in the armed forces, kept on ready reserve status until in their forties, and accorded an impressive array of housing, medical, social security, educational and related benefits denied all others.

Second class citizens are exempted from military service and from a number of the benefits accorded citizens of the first class. They are issued identity documents and license plates that allow them to be profiled by police at a distance. Second class citizens may not own land in much of the country and marriages between them and first class citizens are not recognized by the state. Second class citizens are sometimes arrested without trial and police torture, while frowned upon and occasionally apologized for, commonly occurs.

Citizens of the eleventh class, really not citizens at all, have no rights citizens of the first class or their government are bound to respect. Their residence is forbidden in nearly nine-tenths of the country, all of which they used to own. The areas left to them are cut up into smaller and smaller portions weekly, by high walls, free fire zones and hundreds of checkpoints manned by the army of the first class citizens, so that none can travel a dozen miles in any direction to work, school, shopping, a job, a farm, a business or a hospital without several long waits, humiliating searches and often arbitrary denials of the right to pass or to return. Posh residential settlements for the first class citizens with protecting gun towers and military bases are built with government funds and foreign aid on what used to be the villages and farms and pastures of the eleventh class citizens. The settlers are allotted generous additional housing and other subsidies, allowed to carry weapons and use deadly force with impunity against the former inhabitants, and are connected with the rest of first class territory by a network of of first-class citizen only roads.

Citizens of the eleventh class are routinely arrested, tortured, and held indefinitely without trial. Political activism among them is equated to ?terrorism? and the state discourages such activity by means including but not limited to the kidnapping of suspects and relatives of suspects, demolition of their family homes, and extralegal assassination, sometimes at the hands of a death squad, or at others times by lobbing missiles or five hundred pound bombs into sleeping apartment blocks or noonday traffic. Passports are not issued to these citizens, and those who take advantage of scarce opportunities to study or work abroad are denied re-entry.

The apartheid state in question is, of course, Israel. Its first class citizens are Israeli Jews, the majority of them of European or sometimes American origin. The second class citizens are Israeli Arabs, who enjoy significant but limited rights under the law including token representation in the Knesset. The eleventh class citizens are not citizens at all. They are Palestinians. One expects to be able to say that Palestinians live in Palestine and are governed by Palestinians, but the truth is something different. The areas in which Palestinians may inhabit have shrunk nearly every year since the Nakba, their name for the wave of mass deportations, murders, the dispossession, destruction and exile of whole Arab towns, cities and regions that attended the 1948 founding of the state of Israel. As the whole world, except for the US public knows, Palestinians have lived under military occupation, without land, without rights, without hope, for nearly sixty years now.

The difference between life inside and outside the US corporate media bubble is extraordinarily clear on this question. US authorities subsidize the state of Israel to the tune of at least six billion per year, and corporate media take great pains to protect US citizens from news of actual human and legal conditions their tax dollars pay for. The ugly and racist realities of Israeli society and life under Israeli occupation are rarely discussed anywhere most consumers of media might find them. It is nearly taboo in mainstream US print and broadcast media to apply the words racist or apartheid to the state of Israel or its policies, or to call its control at the point of a gun of millions of non-citizens what it is, namely the longest standing military occupation in the world today. In the US media, and on the lips of every administration since Harry Truman's Israel is ?a democracy?, whatever that word has come to mean.

Though news stories in the US talk about autonomous ?Palestinian areas? allegedly controlled by Palestinian authorities, often referring to Gaza and the West Bank by name, actual maps displaying the geographic boundaries of the so-called Palestinian controlled areas are rarely seen by American viewers, let alone maps comparing the size of Palestinian areas year to year, or showing the steady encroachment upon Arab land and water resources year to year by Israeli settlements, military outposts, Israeli-only roads, free fire zones and Israel's wall. The massive and militarized apartheid wall, as the rest of the world calls it, is termed a ?separation barrier? or a ?separation fence? in the US media, an understandable precaution against hordes of terroristic former owners of the land who lurk just outside.

Still, when you Google the terms Israel + apartheid, you get 5.5 million hits. A lot of somebodies somewhere are making the connection without the help of CNN, ABC or Fox News.

The parallels with apartheid South Africa are many and striking. Like its earlier apartheid cousin, Israel menaces all its neighbors with an impressive array of nukes and the largest military establishment in the region. As Noam Chomsky observed back in 2004:

?Not discussed, in the US at least, is the threat from West Asia. Israel's nuclear capacities, supplemented with other WMD, are regarded as "dangerous in the extreme" by the former head of the US Strategic Command (STRATCOM), Gen. Lee Butler, not only because of the threat they pose but also because they stimulate proliferation in response. The Bush administration is now enhancing that threat. Israeli military analysts allege that its air and armored forces are larger and technologically more advanced than those of any NATO power (apart from the US), not because this small country is powerful in itself, but because it serves virtually as an offshore US military base and high tech center. The US is now sending Israel over 100 of its most advanced jet bombers, F16I's, advertised very clearly as capable of flying to Iran and back, and as an updated version of the F16s that Israel used to bomb Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981....?

The old South Africa bombed, strafed and invaded all its neighbors with some regularity, crippling their commerce and extracting horrific death tolls from refugee camps and other civilian targets. The last time Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon, it left 30,000 corpses.

White South Africans rightly fretted at the fact that they were a minority ruling over an unhappy majority, and concocted schemes to exile the country's black population to isolated rural reservations it called bantustans. Israeli pundits calmly discuss the demographic bomb, their name for the fact that second and eleventh class citizens, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians will soon outnumber them within the borders of their supposed ?Jewish state? while Israeli politicians sit in Knesset and hold ministries in successive governments openly calling for mass deportations and ethnic cleansing.

White South Africans constructed for themselves a bogus scriptural narrative in which the God of Abraham promised them somebody else's land, and brought it into modern history with the embellishment that they were holding the line for the free world against godless communism and the black menace. How similar is Israel's line that European Jews are promised the land of Muslim and Christian Arabs, and that they now hold the line for the free world against radical Islam and those ungrateful brown people?

We at BC have to believe that if the American people knew the truth about what their tax dollars pay for in Israel and what is left of Palestine, there would be a deep and widespread revulsion, similar to that occasioned by US support for apartheid in South Africa. But there are important differences between that time and this one. Though unspeakably odious, racist South African was only marginally important to US interests. By contrast, the maintenance of Israel's apartheid regime, essentially a white hi-tech and military outpost in the middle of all those brown people sitting atop a large share of the world's proven oil reserves is absolutely central to US foreign policy for the foreseeable future. The US is Israel's banker, its arms depot, and its principal diplomatic sponsor. The US is far more complicit in the crimes of the Israeli state than it ever was in South Africa.

Racism and apartheid being what they are, and our historical experience in America being what it is, African Americans have a crucial role to play. African Americans have seldom supported US imperial adventures overseas as readily as whites. Our American experience inclines us to a skeptical appraisal of our government's means and motives at home and abroad. Even though we live as much within the media bubble as white America, where images of the broken and mangled families, the incinerated homes and bombed hospitals are hard to come by, our skepticism leads us to sympathize with those who live at the sharp end of US foreign policy far more often than do our white neighbors.

Our first duty is to tell the truth to each other. We must combat among ourselves the bogus historical narratives which permit indifference to US policy in the Middle East in general, and support of Israeli apartheid in particular. The churchgoers among us urgently, publicly and repeatedly must confront and debunk the nonsense which holds that ?wars and rumors of wars? are something predestined to happen in the biblical holy land for what they are ? bad scripture and fake history. We need to interrupt, correct and school everyone who talks to us about a ?cycle of violence? in the Holy Land, as though some raggedy fool with a suicide belt, or a few hundred fighters with small arms are or ever have been equivalent to the devastation wrought by the established gulags, checkpoints, airborne firepower, economic strangulation, house demolitions and nuclear armed might of the Israeli state. The two sides do not have access to anything like equal means of inflicting violence, and so cannot be equally culpable or equally responsible for stopping that violence.

We need to catch up with the rest of the civilized world, and talk about what we can do to emphatically withdraw our support from the apartheid state of Israel and its immoral and illegal occupation regime. The Presbyterian church, for example, has in the past considered selective divestiture from Israel and from US companies who profit from the occupation, as have the Anglicans. Both might do so again. What can our churches, our unions, our local elected officials, our young people do? What will we do?

Apartheid in South Africa eventually bit the dust mostly because the inhabitants of that country, black, brown and white resisted it, putting their bodies and lives on the line. Their resistance was aided and abetted materially, financially, politically and spiritually by people of good will the world over. Someday the sun will rise on a post-apartheid Jerusalem, one that belongs to all the people who live there of whatever origin. This is bound to happen because Palestinians as well as substantial numbers of Israeli Jews do and will continue to resist the regime. They will do what they can. What will we do?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Here is more on what the world has to "thank" Israel for from an American who considers himself "lucky" enough to be a refugee and wonders rightly why he and others who are lucky enough to be able to leave Lebanon are the story?

Evacuation of Westerners from Lebanon

Why are We the Story?

Patrick McGreevy writes from Beirut:

' Why Are We the Story?

We woke up this morning to a crowded sea. From our Beirut balcony, we could see a steady parade of warships, ferries, cruise ships, helicopter ships, and one aircraft carrier. Helicopters ferried evacuees to the aircraft carrier, and it eventually disappeared to the west. Back and forth, all day, the ships steamed between Beirut and Cyprus. There had been many complaints about the efficiency of the evacuation, but it seems that sufficient resources and will is finally producing results. Tens of thousands are relieved to be getting out.

The use of the term ?refugee? caused controversy when it was applied to those driven from their homes by Hurricane Katrina last September, but, in the current war, only the lucky get to be refugees. Unlike the Katrina victims, they actually do cross an international border; they also must pass through a military blockade. About 1500 Lebanese lined up yesterday to renew their passports or obtain new ones so that they could leave Lebanon; the scene at the General Security headquarters in Beirut was ugly. As citizens of a country under attack by Israeli forces, they will hardly be able to pierce the naval blockade, so their only option is a land route to Syria.

Most Lebanese are not lucky enough to be refugees. They will have to cope with living in a war zone. About 500,000 are even less likely?they have been driven from their homes in southern Lebanon and Beirut?s southern suburbs, a Katrina-like catastrophe in a country without the resources of the United States, during an ongoing war and blockade.

Domestic workers from developing countries also face a situation very different from that of North American and European citizens. These are mostly unmarried women from Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Ghana, and other countries. Leaving Lebanon for the Philippines, for example, means finding yourself back where you started without a job and facing a very expensive return trip in order work again. Hence the Daily Star reported today that only 1000 of the 30,000 Filipinos have requested to leave Lebanon, and only 5,000 of the 90,000 Sri Lankans. Moreover, some who wish to leave, cannot because their sponsors themselves have fled and left them without papers.

The western media has been focused like a laser on the dramatic story of the evacuation of refugees from western countries. The Americans I know who are on their way out all have the same question: Why are we the story? With hundreds dead, thousands injured, hundreds of thousands displaced, Lebanon essentially turned into a Gaza with mountains, and the Bush Administration saying that talk of a cease-fire is ?premature,? can we ever expect the western media to report what is significant rather than what will entertain its audience?

Patrick McGreevy '
 

rogue1979

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2001
3,062
0
0
[/quote]No I wasn't. The Palestinians rejected another more realistic deal, which included even East Jerusalem for their capital and return and/or compensation for the refugees, in 2000. It amounted to over 90% of what Palestine has claimed to want all these years and included points the Israelis were never willing to concede previously, and the Palestinians refused to even make a counter-proposal when given the chance to modify the terms!!! Which again proves their real objective is not a Palestinian state, but genocide and perpetual racist-religious war.

So once again, I get the idea that your arguments are based purely on gut feeling or political affiliation rather than a familiarity with the actual situation. How can you feel so strongly about something of which you know so little? Did you just flip a coin and pick a side?[/quote]

Israel is responding in a way they are almost forced into. They have proven that they are willing to settle things peacefully. Hezbollah on the other hand has only proven that they want violence, death and the end of Israel. They are getting exactly what the asked for!

It is a shame civilian Lebanese or suffering, but then they did not ask for help to get rid of Hezbollah. The cowardly radical terrorists have no problem hiding within the civilian population having no regard for human life, even the very people they say they are fighting for.

Hezbollah and Hamas and the whole lot give Islam a very bad reputation. The rest of the Muslim world better wake up and quit supporting/tolerating these terrorists or it will become their undoing!
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
If everyone left Israel alone, there would be peace.

If Israel left everyone alone, there would be no Israel.

There has still yet to be an effective argument against this line of logic, by anyone.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: Aisengard
If everyone left Israel alone, there would be peace.

If Israel left everyone alone, there would be no Israel.

There has still yet to be an effective argument against this line of logic, by anyone.

*claps*
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Aisengard
If everyone left Israel alone, there would be peace.

If Israel left everyone alone, there would be no Israel.

There has still yet to be an effective argument against this line of logic, by anyone.

Israel failed to "leave everyone alone" when they claimed Palestine.

Creating Israel in the heart of an Arab Middle East was a mistake.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Excuse me? The BRITISH GAVE them "Palestine".

Nevermind the fact that there was NEVER A COUNTRY NAMED PALESTINE.

And what is your solution now that "mistake" has been made 60 years ago? Boot everyone out? Is that how you justify the suicide bombings and rocket attacks on Israeli towns? By something that happened 60 years ago, and that no one alive today had any control over?

I assume you would also support a Black Panther group today, because there were plenty of mistakes back then regarding black people.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Aisengard
If everyone left Israel alone, there would be peace.

If Israel left everyone alone, there would be no Israel.

There has still yet to be an effective argument against this line of logic, by anyone.

Israel failed to "leave everyone alone" when they claimed Palestine.

Creating Israel in the heart of an Arab Middle East was a mistake.


You are in the bottom 3 worst posters on this board, imo
 
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