"Thank you, Israel"

[alejandroAT]

YES the Jews have the right to a land to call home...since they failed miserably to embrace ANY other culture or civilisation.....maybe since they want so badly to be ethnically clean and stick to thousands-year-old mentality that has no place, reason or logic in this time and day, they can all move to Mars and find the loneliness they so badly seek

Who knows? maybe they can find the God that picked them as his Chosen ones and live alone and happy..."Just the two of us" as the song goes.....We can make it if we try, just the two of uuuusss....

 

[BBond]

Here is a different take on the American/Israeli arms connection that allows the Israeli military to attack neighboring countries with impunity.

Israel Violates Law on U.S. Weapons in Mideast

Tue, 2006-07-18 12:03

By Thalif Deen - Inter Press Service

United Nations, 18 July, (IPS) Israel is in violation of U.S. arms control laws for deploying U.S.-made fighter planes, combat helicopters and missiles to kill civilians and destroy Lebanon's infrastructure in the ongoing six-day devastation of that militarily-weak country.

The death toll, according to published reports, is over 200 people -- mostly civilians -- while the economic losses have been estimated at about 100 million dollars per day.

"Section 4 of the (U.S.) Arms Export Control Act requires that military items transferred to foreign governments by the United States be used solely for internal security and legitimate self-defence," says Stephen Zunes, professor of politics at the University of San Francisco.

"Since Israeli attacks against Lebanon's civilian infrastructure and population centres clearly go beyond legitimate self-defence, the United States is legally obliged to suspend arms transfers to Israel," Zunes told IPS.

Frida Berrigan, a senior research associate with the Arms Trade Resource Centre at the World Policy Institute in New York, is equally outraged at the misuse by Israel of U.S.-supplied weapons.

"As Israel jets bombard locations in Gaza, Haifa and Beirut, killing civilians (including as many as seven Canadians vacationing in Aitaroun), it is worth remembering that U.S. law is clear about how U.S.-origin weapons and military systems ought to be used," Berrigan told IPS.

She pointed out that the U.S. Arms Export Control Act clear states that U.S. origin weapons should not be used for "non-defensive purposes."

"In light of this clear statement, the United States has an opportunity to stave off further bloodshed and suffering by demanding that its weaponry and military aid not be used in attacks against Lebanon and elsewhere, and challenging Israeli assertions that it is using military force defensively," she added.

That would demonstrate the kind of "utmost restraint" that world leaders called for at the G8 Summit of the world's most industrialised nations, which just ended in St. Petersburg, Russia.

The 25-member European Union has said that Israel's military retaliation against Lebanon is "grossly disproportionate" to the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers last week by the Islamic militant group Hezbollah, which is a coalition partner of the U.S.-supported government in Beirut.

Israel has accused both Syria and Iran of providing rockets and missiles to Hezbollah, which has used these weapons to hit mostly civilian targets inside Israel.

Israel's prodigious military power -- currently unleashed on a virtually defenceless Lebanon -- is sourced primarily to the United States.

Armed mostly with state-of-the-art U.S.-supplied fighter planes and combat helicopters, the Israeli military is capable of matching a combination of all or most of the armies in most Middle Eastern countries, including Iran, Syria, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

The air force has continued to devastate Beirut and its suburbs with no resistance in the skies during six days of incessant bombings, causing civilian deaths and infrastructure destruction.

"The Israeli Air Force now flies only U.S.-origin fighters, a mix of F-15s and F-16s, and the rest of the service's fleet is almost completely of U.S. origin," says Tom Baranauskas, a senior Middle East analyst at Forecast International, a leading provider of defence market intelligence services in the United States.

While in earlier years Israel bought from a variety of arms suppliers, with the French in particular being strong sellers to Israel of such items as Mirage fighters, over the past couple of decades the United States has developed into Israel's preponderant arms supplier, he added.

"The U.S. domination as Israel's arms supplier can be seen in the Congressional Research Service's (CRS) annual study of arms sales," Baranauskas told IPS.

He said the latest CRS survey shows a total of 8.4 billion dollars of arms deliveries to Israel in the 1997-2004 period, with fully 7.1 billion dollars or 84.5 percent coming from a single source: the United States.

A major factor in this trend was the rise in U.S. Foreign Military Financing (FMF) -- outright U.S. grants to Israel -- which now totals about 2.3 billion dollars a year paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

By U.S. law, Baranauskas said, 74 percent of FMF assistance to Israel must be spent on U.S. military products. This U.S. assistance has now become the main source of financing for Israel's major arms procurements, especially its fighter planes.

From a historical perspective, he said, U.S. assistance to Israel during 1950-2005 has been staggeringly high: Foreign Military Financing (FMF) amounting to 59.5 billion dollars; 27 billion dollars in Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mostly government-to-government arms transactions; and eight billion dollars in commercial arms sales by the private sector.

Berrigan of the Arms Trade Resource Centre said the United States is undoubtedly the primary supplier of Israeli firepower.

In the interest of strengthening Israel's security and maintaining the country's "qualitative military edge" over neighbouring militaries, the U.S. Congress provides Israel with annual FMF grants that represent about 23 percent of its overall defence budget. Israel's 2006 military budget is estimated at 7.4 billion dollars.

According to the Congressional Research Service, FMF levels are expected to increase incrementally by 60 million dollars a year to a level of 2.4 billion dollars by 2008 compared with 2.2 billion dollars in 2005.

"Israel has been the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid every year since 1976," Berrigan said.

Additionally, the United States provides Israel with billions of dollars worth of weaponry.

She pointed out that recent military sales to Israel include propulsion systems for fast patrol boats worth more than 15 million dollars from MTU Detroit Diesel; an eight-million-dollar contract to Lockheed Martin for high-tech infrared "navigation and targeting" capabilities for Israeli jets; and a 145-million-dollar deal with Oshkosh Truck Corp to build more than 900 armour kits for Israeli Medium Tactical Vehicles.

In December of last year, Lockheed Martin was awarded a 29.8-million-dollar contract to provide spares part for Israel's F-16 fighter planes.

Berrigan also said that Israel has one of the world's largest fleets of F-16 fighter planes, made in Fort Worth, Texas and also in Israel by Lockheed Martin Corporation.

Israel has a total of over 378 F-16s, considered one of the world's most advanced fighter planes -- besides 117 F-15s, 94 Skyhawks, 110 Phantoms -- all supplied by the United States.

- Inter Press Service (IPS) News Agency -

 

[alejandroAT]

Why do they keep calling prisoners of war abductees??????

Israel is holding 900!!!! "prisoners of war" and hezbollah is holding 2 "abducted" SOLDIERS....SOLDIERS....SOLDIERS....i repeat ...SOLDIERS......

we can make it if we try...just the two of us...

 

[alejandroAT]

You see now why the US is brainwashing its citizens? because it needs to sell its arms to support its weapon manufacturinf indusrty....they give israel money to purchase US arms...

 

[alejandroAT]

Israel seems to think that the Arabs will remain indeffinatelly under the control of the US....The only reason why srael has not been overwhelmed yet but its neighbours is because the Sheichs and the other muslim rulers are receiving US help to keep the muslim world under control and ignorance....But when the muslim world goes through its rennaisance (like all other civilisations have) they will rid themselves of that control and revolt....And who is going to help Israel then?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
You see now why the US is brainwashing its citizens? because it needs to sell its arms to support its weapon manufacturinf indusrty....they give israel money to purchase US arms...

Here is a view from somewhere outside the USA that hasn't been as brainwashed towards Israel as we have been inside our borders -- YET!

Some pretty amazing facts and figures.

Ever wonder why that HUGE AIPAC SPY STORY just sort of disappeared from our news???

A sweet deal for Israel

Because of the perceived power of the Jewish lobby -- it has been called the National Rifle Association of U.S. foreign policy -- working Capitol Hill for Jewish organizations these days is, to quote one of their own lobbyists, 'like pushing at an open door.'
By Glenn Frankel
The Washington Post; The Hamilton Spectator
Washington (Jul 22, 2006)

All David Ben-Gurion wanted was 15 minutes of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's time.

Israel's founding father, one of the indomitable political leaders of the 20th century, came to Washington in December 1941 to present the case for a Jewish state directly to the American president. He took a suite at the old Ambassador Hotel for $1,000 a month and cooled his heels for 10 weeks, writing letters and reports and making passes at Miriam Cohen, his attractive American secretary. But Ben-Gurion didn't get the meeting.

Fast-forward 64 years to late May and a news conference in the East Room of the White House. That tall, slightly nervous-looking man with the rust-coloured hair standing with President George W. Bush at matching lecterns is Ehud Olmert, 12th prime minister of Israel. The two leaders and their advisers have just spent two hours in the Oval Office. Bush is reaffirming the "deep and abiding ties between Israel and the United States," and praising Olmert's "bold ideas" and commitment to peace. Then they'll adjourn for a private session and go to dinner.

The next day, Olmert will address a joint session of Congress, whose members will interrupt his speech with 16 standing ovations.

It's not that Olmert is a more commanding figure than Ben-Gurion. Far from it. It's about power, about the perceived power of the Israel lobby, a collection of American Jewish organizations, campaign contributors and think tanks -- aided by Christian conservatives and other non-Jewish supporters -- that arose over the second half of the 20th century and that sees as a principal goal support and promotion of the interests of the state of Israel.

Thanks to the work of the lobby and its allies, Israel gets more direct foreign aid -- about $3 billion a year -- than any other nation. Israel gets treated like a NATO member when it comes to military matters and like Canada or Mexico when it comes to free trade.

There's an annual calendar full of meetings of joint strategic task forces and other collaborative sessions. And there's a presidential pledge, reavowed by Bush in the East Room, that the United States will come to Israel's aid in the event of attack.

On Capitol Hill, the Israel lobby commands large majorities in the House and Senate. Polls show strong public support for Israel, a connection that has grown deeper after the Sept. 11 attacks. This is the popular equation: Israelis equal good guys, Arabs equal terrorists.

Working the Hill these days, says Josh Block, spokesperson for the premier Israeli lobbying group known as AIPAC, the American Israel Political Action Committee, "is like pushing at an open door."

Not everyone believes this is a good thing.

In March, two distinguished political scientists, Stephen Walt from Harvard and John Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago, published a 42-page, heavily footnoted essay arguing that the Bush administration's support for Israel and its related effort to spread democracy throughout the Middle East have "inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. security."

The professors claim the intimate partnership with Israel is dangerous and unprecedented. "Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest," they argue. They go on to say that the war in Iraq "was due in large part to the lobby's influence," and that it's "using all of the strategies in its playbook" to pressure the administration into being aggressive and belligerent with Iran.

The bottom line: "Israel's enemies get weakened or overthrown, Israel gets a free hand with the Palestinians and the United States does most of the fighting, dying, rebuilding and paying."

A sweet deal for Israel, in other words, but a very bad one for the United States.

Some of the lobby's critics hailed the essay as a much needed breath of fresh air and praised Walt and Mearsheimer for their courage.

Their paper, wrote anti-war activist and media critic Norman Solomon in the Baltimore Sun, "is prying the lid off a debate that has been bottled up for decades."

But the two professors knew they were treading on delicate ground.

For generations, the idea of a cabal of powerful Jews hijacking national interest for its own purposes has fuelled anti-Semitism worldwide.

Supporters of Israel argued the essay echoed those claims.

Alan Dershowitz, author, lawyer, celebrity and Harvard professor, said the essay is rife with "bigoted comments" and "the smell of singling out Jews and singling out Israel." Abraham Foxman, longtime director of the Anti-Defamation League, told me the paper essentially and erroneously blames the Jews for the war in Iraq.

Daniel Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States, who hadn't commented publicly until our interview, called it "tainted, shallow and sloppy ... just a compilation of old nonsense and garbage ..."

Walt and Mearsheimer in response insist their arguments are valid and the vituperative critical reaction affirms one of their key points: That the Israel lobby is a sacred cow and anyone who criticizes it risks being branded an anti-Semite."In effect, the lobby boasts of its own power and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it," they write.

Flawed or not, the essay has raised compelling questions. How powerful is the Israel lobby? What was its role in engineering the Iraq war and is it pushing for a repeat performance in Iran?

And whose lobby is it anyway?

Morris Amitay is a dapper man with a ready smile.

Educated at Columbia and Harvard Law, Amitay had spent seven years as a diplomat in the State Department and six more as a legislative aide on Capitol Hill when friends approached him in 1974 about becoming executive director of AIPAC.

The organization was founded in the early 1950s by Canadian-born former journalist I.L. Kenen, with funding from various Jewish groups. Kenen was a tireless advocate for Israel in the 1950s and early '60s, when it had to claw for dollars and votes against a powerful lobby of oil interests, Arab-oriented diplomats and lawmakers such as J. William Fulbright, the legendary chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who saw U.S. support of the fledgling Jewish state as a serious mistake that threatened regional stability.

The 1967 Six-Day War was a turning point. Arab leaders talked of driving the Jews into the sea, igniting fears of a new Holocaust, but Israel launched pre-emptive airstrikes on Egypt and Syria for a smashing victory. Many American Jews rallied around their scrappy Middle Eastern cousin, as did non-Jews who saw Israel as a powerful little island of democracy in a sea of hostile Arab dictatorships.

Initially, Amitay was reluctant to take over an organization purporting to represent the forever bickering factions of organized American Jewry.

"It was like herding cats. I took the job against my better judgment."

He eventually tripled AIPAC's staff size and budget, but his most strategic decision was to move the office from 13th and G, four blocks from the White House, to the foot of Capitol Hill.

Amitay saw the State Department and the rest of the executive branch as hostile territory for Israel and Congress as a natural ally. He could do the math: There were only two elected officials in the executive branch -- the president and vice-president -- but 535 in Congress. Lots more targets and opportunities for persuasion.

Amitay had some things going for him: His own experience and relationships on the Hill; a small, hardworking staff, which at one time included Wolf Blitzer, now a journalist with CNN; and Kenneth Wollack, president of the National Democratic Institute.

But his biggest asset was several thousand, affluent grassroots members for whom Israel was not just a cause but a sacred mission.

"The big reason why AIPAC is so effective is the enthusiasm of our people, and that's because of their affinity for Israel, the knowledge they have and the willingness to get involved politically, write a letter, send an e-mail, send a contribution and get to know their members of Congress," Amitay said.

AIPAC is the best-known of a handful of groups that have made support for Israel a centrepiece of their agendas, including the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. But when it comes to Washington, AIPAC wields the real clout.

In its early days, Israel was almost exclusively the foster child of liberal Democrats, the affiliation of most American Jews. That began to change in the late 1970s after Menachem Begin became the country's first right-of-centre prime minister. He forged a practical alliance with the Rev. Jerry Falwell and other Christian conservatives who saw Jewish rule over the Holy Land as a divinely ordained prelude to the Second Coming of Christ.

The Reagan administration saw in Israel a strategic Cold War ally, a balance against Soviet client-states such as Syria and Iraq. Israelis relied on political support and financial donations the American Jewish community provided. Still, they were ambivalent and at times contemptuous of their more affluent brethren, who were willing to give money but not willing to move to Israel or send their children there.

Ben-Gurion's stated goal had been to bring Jews home from 2,000 years of exile. But the existence of Israel and its pressing needs gave American Jews a rallying cry and sense of cohesion that enhanced their political stature in American society.

The late Arthur Hertzberg, a rabbi, historian and president of the American Jewish Congress, once told me that before Israel's existence, Jews attended White House dinners as individuals. Afterward, they came as Jews. "In a real sense, being involved with Israel made Jewish leaders more truly American than they had ever dreamt of being," he said.

Amitay quit AIPAC in 1980 to open a law practice that lobbies for defence contractors. But he didn't give up working for Israeli interests, forming his own pro-Israel PAC, the Washington Public Action Committee. And AIPAC continued to grow under his successor, Thomas Dine, who presided over a massive increase in the group's size and influence during the 1980s, a decade in which the lobby claimed some significant political scalps.

Pro-Israel money helped defeat Republican Representatives Paul Findley of Illinois and Pete McCloskey of California and Senator Charles Percy of Illinois, all of whom were deemed too sympathetic to Arab causes and too critical of Israel.

Findley says he had always voted for aid to Israel even while criticizing Israeli policy. But his real sin was meeting periodically with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, whom he once praised as "a great champion of human rights."

Findley was targeted in the election of 1982: He had served 11 terms; he didn't get a 12th. Two years after that, Percy lost to Paul Simon in a bitter contest in which supporters of Israel poured an estimated $1.8 million into direct contributions and an independent anti-Percy ad campaign.

The message to incumbents was clear: Oppose Israel at your peril.

"After that," said Findley, "I really feel the cloak of intimidation was pretty secure."

Percy told colleagues he blamed Amitay personally for his defeat. "Frankly, I didn't know I was that powerful," said Amitay. "We just did what every lobbying group in this town does: It supports its friends and tries to defeat its enemies, so I don't see what the big deal was."

Nevertheless, the Israel lobby, and AIPAC in particular, gained a reputation as the National Rifle Association of foreign policy: A hard-edged, pugnacious bunch that took names and kept score.

But in some ways it was even stronger. The NRA's support was largely confined to right-wing Republicans and rural Democrats. But AIPAC made inroads in both parties and ends of the ideological spectrum.

Then one day it went too far. In 1991, President George H.W. Bush was on a roll. Having defeated the Iraqi army and driven it out of Kuwait, Bush and his wheeler-dealer secretary of state, James Baker, turned their attention to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

They were pushing both sides toward a historic peace conference in Madrid, but first faced an issue that they feared could torpedo the session before it started.

The prime minister of Israel was a hard-liner named Yitzhak Shamir, who in pre-independence days was the leader of the smallest and most extreme of militant Zionist factions.

Faced with a wave of Jewish immigrants from the collapsing Soviet Union, Shamir's government was quickly throwing up new housing.

To ease the costs of massive borrowing, it was seeking $10 billion in loan guarantees from Washington. Bush and Baker wanted Shamir's pledge that he wouldn't use the loan guarantees toward expanding controversial Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

It was a promise Shamir didn't want to make. He instructed AIPAC to get the guarantees through Congress over the administration's objections.

The crunch came one September day when AIPAC dispatched more than 1,000 members to Capitol Hill to lobby members of Congress. Bush retaliated at a news conference when he took direct aim at the Israel lobby, saying he was "up against some powerful political forces ... I heard today there was something like 1,000 lobbyists on the Hill working on the other side of the question. We've got one lonely little guy down here doing it."

AIPAC's leaders had told Shamir they had enough votes to easily override the president in the House and Senate, but Bush's remarks punctured their balloon like a blowtorch. Within days, leaders of both houses advised AIPAC to back down. Its support had melted away. What shocked Shamir more was the rapid defection of his American Jewish allies. They didn't like being portrayed by the president as a shadowy but powerful force serving the interests of a foreign power.

"It clobbered the Jewish community, left us in a state of shock," one American Jewish leader told me later.

Shamir and his aides derided American Jews as timid. But Israeli voters blamed him for overplaying his hand. The following year he lost his bid for re-election to the more dovish Yitzhak Rabin.

Bush paid a price. He got crushed in a small group of heavily Jewish precincts in states like New York, New Jersey, Ohio and Florida in his November 1992 election loss to Bill Clinton.

When Rabin came to Washington for the first time as prime minister, he summoned AIPAC's leaders to a meeting at the Madison Hotel in which he accused them of steering Israel into a needless confrontation with the White House. From now on, he told them, Israel would drive its own relations with Washington, and AIPAC would be consigned to a back seat.

The organization's leaders learned a lesson. "After that they adopted the Colin Powell doctrine," said Ori Nir, a journalist for the Jewish Forward. "They only fought the battles that they knew they could win."

This year, AIPAC's two-pronged legislative agenda focuses on mutual enemies. The first is the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act, a bill placing new restrictions on aid to the Palestinian Authority since the electoral victory of the militant Islamic group Hamas.

Then there is the Iran Freedom Support Act, designed to dry up foreign funds Iran can use to develop a nuclear bomb and to supply aid to anti-government groups there.

AIPAC dispatched hundreds of activists to more than 450 congressional offices to lobby for the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act. One of those targeted was Representative Betty McCollum, a Minnesota Democrat with a solid pro-Israel voting record who had opposed the bill in committee.

McCollum took offence after an AIPAC representative from Minneapolis confronted Bill Harper, her chief of staff, over her vote. Harper said the AIPAC rep told him that "McCollum's support for terrorists would not be tolerated."

"Never has my name and reputation been maligned or smeared as it was last week by a representative of AIPAC," McCollum said in a letter to Howard Kohr, AIPAC's executive director, and demanded Kohr apologize.

Kohr requested a meeting. The AIPAC rep denied making the remarks. No one apologized. McCollum eventually declared the incident over.

The bill passed the House, on the day before Olmert addressed Congress, by 361 to 37. A milder version of the bill unanimously passed the Senate late last month.

Like Congress, the Bush administration has been an easy sell. Ever since George W. Bush, then governor of Texas, took a helicopter ride over the Israeli countryside with former Israeli defence minister Ariel Sharon, Bush has felt a sense of kinship and concern.

When Ambassador Ayalon phones the White House, he deals with Elliott Abrams, a longtime supporter of Israel who is deputy national security adviser. Ayalon, who used to be Sharon's foreign affairs adviser, and is on a first-name basis with National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, presidential political strategist Karl Rove and the new White House chief of staff, Josh Bolten. Both sides say relations have never been closer.

There was a glitch in 2002 when Bush declared "enough is enough" and demanded Sharon pull back Israeli forces from their siege of the West Bank, dispatching Colin Powell, then-secretary of state, to negotiate a withdrawal.

AIPAC helped organize congressional resolutions reaffirming solidarity with Israel that passed the Senate by 94 to 2 and the House by 352 to 21. Supporters organized a "Stand Up for Israel" rally in Washington in April that drew tens of thousands.

The crowd booed senior Pentagon official Paul Wolfowitz, Bush's representative to the rally, when he told them "innocent Palestinians are suffering and dying in great numbers."

And they cheered Janet Parshall, host of an evangelical Christian talk show, who declared: "We will never limp, we will never wimp, we will never vacillate in our support of Israel."

Bush stopped making his plea for withdrawal, and four days after the rally hailed Sharon as a "man of peace."

Powell came home empty-handed.

Glenn Frankel is The Washington Post's former Jerusalem bureau chief.

 

[SLCentral]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
YES the Jews have the right to a land to call home...since they failed miserably to embrace ANY other culture or civilisation.....maybe since they want so badly to be ethnically clean and stick to thousands-year-old mentality that has no place, reason or logic in this time and day, they can all move to Mars and find the loneliness they so badly seek

Who knows? maybe they can find the God that picked them as his Chosen ones and live alone and happy..."Just the two of us" as the song goes.....We can make it if we try, just the two of uuuusss....

OMFG, you've got to be kidding me. The REASON why Israel wanted Israel as a home for their people was because EVERYWHERE they turned, they were percecuted. EVERYWHERE.. Just three years before the creation of Israel, 6 MILLION of their people were killed. It wasn't about them not embracing other cultures, it was about other cultures not accepting them.

Don't post if you're ignorant.

Oh, and if you don't mind, there's no need to make three posts in a row, put them in one, why don't you?

What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: SLCentral

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
YES the Jews have the right to a land to call home...since they failed miserably to embrace ANY other culture or civilisation.....maybe since they want so badly to be ethnically clean and stick to thousands-year-old mentality that has no place, reason or logic in this time and day, they can all move to Mars and find the loneliness they so badly seek

Who knows? maybe they can find the God that picked them as his Chosen ones and live alone and happy..."Just the two of us" as the song goes.....We can make it if we try, just the two of uuuusss....

OMFG, you've got to be kidding me. The REASON why Israel wanted Israel as a home for their people was because EVERYWHERE they turned, they were percecuted. EVERYWHERE.. Just three years before the creation of Israel, 6 MILLION of their people were killed. It wasn't about them not embracing other cultures, it was about other cultures not accepting them.

Don't post if you're ignorant.

Oh, and if you don't mind, there's no need to make three posts in a row, put them in one, why don't you?

What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?

Yes Jews in the US are SOOOO oppressed!!!!! No wait in Canada! no no no in all the Western World!!! Give me a fvcking break. :roll:

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: SLCentral

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
YES the Jews have the right to a land to call home...since they failed miserably to embrace ANY other culture or civilisation.....maybe since they want so badly to be ethnically clean and stick to thousands-year-old mentality that has no place, reason or logic in this time and day, they can all move to Mars and find the loneliness they so badly seek

Who knows? maybe they can find the God that picked them as his Chosen ones and live alone and happy..."Just the two of us" as the song goes.....We can make it if we try, just the two of uuuusss....

OMFG, you've got to be kidding me. The REASON why Israel wanted Israel as a home for their people was because EVERYWHERE they turned, they were percecuted. EVERYWHERE.. Just three years before the creation of Israel, 6 MILLION of their people were killed. It wasn't about them not embracing other cultures, it was about other cultures not accepting them.

Don't post if you're ignorant.

Oh, and if you don't mind, there's no need to make three posts in a row, put them in one, why don't you?

What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?

Yes Jews in the US are SOOOO oppressed!!!!! No wait in Canada! no no no in all the Western World!!! Give me a fvcking break. :roll:

I think that he meant back then, not now.

But then again, some members of this forum do say strange things about 'Jewish conspiracies' and such, but the same is basically said of every group. One of the members here once said that he wouldn't be surprised if Jews! were behind the whole beheading things in Iraq. I wonder who that was....

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: SLCentral

What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?

You mean democracy based of racial segregation. What do we call that again? Apartheid right!

 

[alejandroAT]

You are right of course about the posts-in-a-row....i m just remembering things after i post..i apologise...

But dont give me the old persecution biscuit cause i aint eating it....Why are muslims not hated? why confucianists not hated? why are hindouists not hated? OMFG you are so naif!!! if the whole world has a problem with Jews then the problem lies with the 'Jews and not with the world...thats common sense!!!!

OF COURSE A CULTURE WONT ACCEPT YOU if you stuff yourself in a ghetto and never make an effort to integrate...or if indeed your sole interest in a country is to take over its economy.

And of course i will post even if i am a bit ignorant...most of the posts on this thread were made by ignorant, uneducated and mnissinformed Americans. The whole world is laughing with american citizens that swallow without chewing!

quote:"What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?"

I will tell you why...because israelis where educated by europeans and funded by americans...all the arabs got was US support of resimes that keep them down. Saying something like "why didnt they do anything with their land" is so ignorant and stupendus that you really qualify for the Blind Follower of the Decade award!!!

but w8...what was that you said? Democracy? make it Blind Follower of the Millenium award mate cause you really dont know what democarcy is...

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I think that he meant back then, not now.

But then again, some members of this forum do say strange things about 'Jewish conspiracies' and such, but the same is basically said of every group. One of the members here once said that he wouldn't be surprised if Jews! were behind the whole beheading things in Iraq. I wonder who that was....

I wonder who that was myself. :laugh:

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
You are right of course about the posts-in-a-row....i m just remembering things after i post..i apologise...

But dont give me the old persecution biscuit cause i aint eating it....Why are muslims not hated? why confucianists not hated? why are hindouists not hated? OMFG you are so naif!!! if the whole world has a problem with Jews then the problem lies with the 'Jews and not with the world...thats common sense!!!!

OF COURSE A CULTURE WONT ACCEPT YOU if you stuff yourself in a ghetto and never make an effort to integrate...or if indeed your sole interest in a country is to take over its economy.

And of course i will post even if i am a bit ignorant...most of the posts on this thread were made by ignorant, uneducated and mnissinformed Americans. The whole world is laughing with american citizens that swallow without chewing!

quote:"What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?"

I will tell you why...because israelis where educated by europeans and funded by americans...all the arabs got was US support of resimes that keep them down. Saying something like "why didnt they do anything with their land" is so ignorant and stupendus that you really qualify for the Blind Follower of the Decade award!!!

but w8...what was that you said? Democracy? make it Blind Follower of the Millenium award mate cause you really dont know what democarcy is...

Damn excellent post alejandroAT! :thumbsup:

 

[alejandroAT]

Some of the people that had genocides practiced on them for centuries (counting several million lives lost also):

Armenians
Greeks
Kurds
Native Americans (to the point of extinction)
Numerous races and tribes of the ex Sovier Union

Do you see any of these people to use it as an excuse to practice murder, and achieve pretty much anything they want? Jews are such crybabies that the world is getting tired...They seem to believe they are the only people on this planet that was wronged...They use this card to shut you up whenever you mention that they do something wrong....little princess is about to get the boot my friend!!!

Should i go and start bombimg or murdering Turks because their great great grandfathers wronged my people?? NO!!! Jews should get over it and move on LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE HAS.......there is nothing special about Jews...not more than any other race on the planet.

 

[SpeedZealot369]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT


OF COURSE A CULTURE WONT ACCEPT YOU if you stuff yourself in a ghetto and never make an effort to integrate...or if indeed your sole interest in a country is to take over its economy.

Right.. Is that why jews create wealth and prosperity to everyone around them? by "stuffing themselves in a ghetto"? your whole argument is illogical.

Is that why nazi's tried to eradicate the jews? because they didn't make an effort to intergrate?


I'm getting tired of this pro arab gang in this thread, and I feel bad for how convinced you are that what you think is the truth when it's the most rediculous things I've ever heard.

"lebenese are getting massacred" lol this is war, collateral damage is part of that.
"Israel created hizballah" That is the most rediculous thing I've ever read in any political forum.

Originally posted by: MegaWorks


Yes Jews in the US are SOOOO oppressed!!!!! No wait in Canada! no no no in all the Western World!!! Give me a fvcking break. :roll:

WOW you should not be aloud to post.


If all you pro arab dudes just learned to let go of your false hatred our world would be a better place.

:beer: to a better world for our children.

 

[alejandroAT]

quote: "Right.. Is that why jews create wealth and prosperity to everyone around them? by "stuffing themselves in a ghetto"? your whole argument is illogical."

Is that why the Nazzis got the whole german people with them in their fight against the Jews? because the germans were wealthy and prosperus because of the Jews?

quote: "Is that why nazi's tried to eradicate the jews? because they didn't make an effort to intergrate? "

Dont even dare to use the Nazzi argument...they are looong gone and they only were around for 10 years....Turks are trying to eradicate Armenians and Kurds for 400 years...yep thats four hundred years not a typo...i dont see any of them causing such mayhem and destruction.

quote: "I'm getting tired of this pro arab gang in this thread, and I feel bad for how convinced you are that what you think is the truth when it's the most rediculous things I've ever heard. "

you must be getting tired of the whole world then......and you must also think that the whole world is ridicullus for not believing what you do....fortunatelly the world does not watch FOX news so we wouldnt know what the "truth" is.

quote "WOW you should not be aloud to post. "

here again we see the american distorted perception of democracy. (the land of the free - just watch what you say or read cause you might end up in guandanamo no charges pressed)

quote :"lebenese are getting massacred" lol this is war, collateral damage is part of that. "

would collateral damage include the 2 "abducted" israelis soldiers or are we to make yet another exception for the Jews? (here goes "democracy" again.

quote:""Israel created hizballah" That is the most rediculous thing I've ever read in any political forum. "

You seem to find ridicul in the most reasonable of arguments. Are you suggesting that guerilla organisations form before the actual coop/foreign invasion?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
But dont give me the old persecution biscuit cause i aint eating it....Why are muslims not hated? why confucianists not hated? why are hindouists not hated? OMFG you are so naif!!! if the whole world has a problem with Jews then the problem lies with the 'Jews and not with the world...thats common sense!!!!

How does the whole world hate Jews? If anything, I'd say the world has far more problems with Muslims than Jews.

OF COURSE A CULTURE WONT ACCEPT YOU if you stuff yourself in a ghetto and never make an effort to integrate...or if indeed your sole interest in a country is to take over its economy.

Jews live in ghettos and 'don't integrate'? Where are you even getting this from? Their sole interest is in taking over economies? Huh? How did you come to such a conclusion?

These are some very interesting comments. In fact, they're so outlandish and ridiculous that they're borderline racist or whatever.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
You are right of course about the posts-in-a-row....i m just remembering things after i post..i apologise...

But dont give me the old persecution biscuit cause i aint eating it....Why are muslims not hated? why confucianists not hated? why are hindouists not hated? OMFG you are so naif!!! if the whole world has a problem with Jews then the problem lies with the 'Jews and not with the world...thats common sense!!!!

OF COURSE A CULTURE WONT ACCEPT YOU if you stuff yourself in a ghetto and never make an effort to integrate...or if indeed your sole interest in a country is to take over its economy.

And of course i will post even if i am a bit ignorant...most of the posts on this thread were made by ignorant, uneducated and mnissinformed Americans. The whole world is laughing with american citizens that swallow without chewing!

quote:"What 1,000 year old mentality is that, BTW? How is it that in 50 years, Israel was able to create the biggest democracy in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who had 2,000 years, couldn't do anything with the land?"

I will tell you why...because israelis where educated by europeans and funded by americans...all the arabs got was US support of resimes that keep them down. Saying something like "why didnt they do anything with their land" is so ignorant and stupendus that you really qualify for the Blind Follower of the Decade award!!!

but w8...what was that you said? Democracy? make it Blind Follower of the Millenium award mate cause you really dont know what democarcy is...

Damn excellent post alejandroAT! :thumbsup:

Not a surprise at all.

 

[The Raven]

Sorry Bond, I tried to have a flameless conversation with you because I wanted to see why you thought the way you do but you seem to pick the things you like to talk about and go off on these people and don't answer questions regarding your own links. I can't believe you still think there is a Jews only policy. You never even explained why you thought that after I pointed out that you were only reading part of the document.

If you can read the ENTIRE document and still think it's jews only, then send me a PM because like I said I wanted to know why you think so harshly against Israel.

If we can get over that one simple thing then I'm sure you'd like to have the only person in here that doesn't flame you rejoin the convo.

If not, then you prove a lot of people's negative opinions about you right.

 

[Zebo]

Sorry Bond Israel is not killing enough and is showing thier typical restraint and forgivness to those who have waged unrelenting no-holds barred warfare on Israel for 58 years now..

Why do I say they showing restraint?

To answer this you must begin to think about deterance and how Israel must deter them in the furture in order to survive. Unless we are talking about Suicide bombers or those in direct combat with Israel mearly belonging to a terrorist organization such as Hezbolla is usually not deadly. this must change. You need to kill them all off so their opportunity cost is very high for even joining, resulting in death. Terrorism like anything you reduce it more if the probability and severity of punishment increased. Israel is doing that.

But these are not the only forms of deterrence. And where Israel and the West is extremly weak is exploiting evolutionary psychology: family responsibility. Like most suicide bombers and terrorists this person does not fear his own death or any guilt about it , but he fears negative consequences for his relatives. Taking them out would restore that guilt and erase terror..

This is how all wars are won. And why we and Israel will lose every war until we are willing to advance the concept of family and societal responsibilty.

 

[alejandroAT]

right....i can understand how i might be misunderstood...exuse my passion but these are troubled days and we are all on an edge...

i really do not want to come across as a fanatic or an absolutist...

what i mean by "the wolrd doesnt like jews" is " the world does not agree with Israelly politics." (except of course by the US which has a loooong history of support for regimes of all sorts, military and not.

And by "ghetto" i mean it in a completely metaphorical way...not an actual ghetto as in a housing complex isolated from the rest of the city.

All of my life i have learned to be sympathetic towards the jews mainly because of the hundreds of films produced by hollywood on the subject of the holocaust. But after a while you start questioning a few things..Like in what way are the Jews better than their enemies? Having classifications of citizenship is an outright Nazzi practice...The fact that in Israel exists such a thing as a second and third class citizen based solely on the cleanliness of your ethnicity makes you think doesnt it?

I just cant bring myself to give Israel a moral blank cheque anymore for the sake of a mistreatment that happened over 60 years ago!!

 

[BBond]

The very idea that Israel and the Jewish people are blameless in all this is just nonsense. Israel has the strongest foreign PAC in the USA, the strongest lobby, and Israel gets the MOST FOREIGN AID OF ANY NATION and they've been getting it for years. Israel also gets the MOST MILITARY AID of any nation. THAT'S how Israel built their "democracy" while the Arab states haven't.

But Israel's government is very much like other theocratic Middle Eastern governments. Again, they don't allow non-Jewish immigration. But the difference is Israel doesn't have oil so the USA uses them as an ally and enforcer against the oil rich Arab states that the U.S. has and continues to manipulate because we are hooked on their oil and we need to control them and their resources to continue getting our fix.

The very idea that the USA and Israel are the good guys in the Middle East and all those bad Arabs are attacking them for no reason is just ridiculous. Israel is America's outpost in the Middle East. Our extended military. And the influence Israel has on the U.S. government in Washington is an outgrowth of the reliance Washington has come to rely on from Israel and the reason why Israel gets the most foreign aid of any nation as well as the most advanced U.S. weapons systems. Read the links I posted above. Or read these.

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US

This one is from 2002

U.S. Arms Transfers and Security Assistance to Israel

Unbelievable. Who is controlling who here? Judging by Israel's attack in Lebanon, apparently without any advice or warning to their largest benefactor and supposed ally, Washington certainly isn't in charge.

All bush is left with is the nonsense he spouts about Israel's right to "defend" itself as a way to save face, as though bush has any face left to save, while the entire world watches Israel destroy the entire nation of Lebanon.

 

[The Raven]

Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Originally posted by: The Raven

No you're not, but like I said, you got frustrated and now you're driving people away with your words.

Israel got frustrated and their driving people away with bombs (and the subsequent civilian casualties)

But of course you weren't attacked by the Hez, so why would you resort to violence?
The Israelis were, and that is why they have.

Here's me not holding Israel to the same standard. (excuse the sarcasm)

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: The Raven
Sorry Bond, I tried to have a flameless conversation with you because I wanted to see why you thought the way you do but you seem to pick the things you like to talk about and go off on these people and don't answer questions regarding your own links. I can't believe you still think there is a Jews only policy. You never even explained why you thought that after I pointed out that you were only reading part of the document.

If you can read the ENTIRE document and still think it's jews only, then send me a PM because like I said I wanted to know why you think so harshly against Israel.

If we can get over that one simple thing then I'm sure you'd like to have the only person in here that doesn't flame you rejoin the convo.

If not, then you prove a lot of people's negative opinions about you right.

I showed you the relevant parts of the document that expressly require immigrants be Jewish to migrate to Israel. Why don't you show me the parts that allow anyone of any nationality, race, or religion to migrate to Israel and gain full Israeli citizenship?

In the meantime, read this piece on Israel's new citizenship laws from Find Law:

Israel?s New Citizenship Law: A Separation Wall Through the Heart

Imagine having to decide between your country and your spouse. With the passage of Israel?s new law on marriage and citizenship, thousands of Israeli Arabs now face this painful and unjust choice.

The law, passed on July 31, bars Palestinians who marry Israelis from becoming citizens or residents of Israel. It formalizes a policy that has been effect since September 2000, when the current violence in Israel began.

Israelis of Palestinian origin have long complained that they feel like second-class citizens. It is hard to see this new law as anything but a defining step toward making their second-class status official.

Differential Treatment of Jews and Palestinians

Israeli law already extends an absolute preference to Jews, over members of all other ethnic or religious groups, in obtaining Israeli citizenship. The Law of Return, together with the country?s Citizenship Law, grants automatic citizenship to Jewish immigrants to Israel. Not only do the country?s legal rules benefit Jews over other potential immigrants, they give Jews priority over Palestinians who fled or were driven from the country during the 1948 and 1967 wars.

The law that was just passed, however, goes an important step beyond the previously existing rules. Rather than granting a preference to Jews over all other groups, it specifically singles out Palestinians for adverse treatment.

The overwhelming majority of Israeli-Palestinian marriages are between Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin (known as Israeli Arabs), and Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. By blocking the reunification of families split between Israel and the occupied territories, the law will have a devastating impact on the family life of Israeli Arabs.

Israeli Arabs who are married to Palestinians will now have to abandon Israel if they want to live with their families. Indeed, the prospect of their emigration may have helped spur the law?s passage. As Israelis prepare for the establishment of a Palestinian state, nationalist legislators are anxious to ensure the geographic separation of Jews and Palestinians.

Security or Demography?

Column continues below ?
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Nearly 20 percent of Israelis are of Palestinian origin: an estimated 1.2 million people. Given the Zionist ideal of Israel as the state of the Jewish people, and the demographic realities that this ideal presupposes, many Israeli Jews have watched the growth of Israel?s Palestinian population with an anxious eye.

Until recently, the immigration of Jews to Israel has more than outweighed the population increases of Israelis of Palestinian origin. Benefiting from the Law of Return, some 2.7 million Jews immigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1998. At present, however, with the Jewish exodus from Russia having ended, the prospect of continued large-scale Jewish immigration to Israel seems unlikely. The demographic issues that alarm Jewish nationalists are now increasingly apparent.

Because of such concerns, it has never been easy for Palestinians from the occupied territories to obtain permission to join their spouses in Israel. But it was with the outbreak of violence in Israel in September 2000 that the issuing of residence permits to Palestinian spouses was effectively frozen. This de facto suspension of permits was ratified by the Israeli cabinet in May 2002, and was just now formalized into law.

Supporters of the new law, known as the ?Nationality and Entry into Israel? law, justify it as a means to prevent terrorist attacks. According to Israeli government minister Gideon Ezra, a member of the right-wing Likud party, there have been some twenty lethal attacks in the last few years involving Palestinians who had gained entry to Israel through marriage.

Ezra also acknowledged, however, that over 100,000 Palestinians from the West Bank had obtained Israeli identity cards since the 1993 Oslo agreement. Clearly, if the prevention of terrorist attacks is the goal, the government should seek out a more compelling surrogate for terrorist intent: 20 out of 100,000 people is hardly a close match. Nor is punishing thousands of people for the crimes of a few a very fair approach to stemming terrorism.

Discrimination and Citizenship under International Law

In other words, while the treaty may not bar Israel from crafting citizenship rules that benefit a particular groups ? as with the Law of Return ? it does bar Israel from discriminating against Palestinians specifically.

Recognizing the Israeli law?s incompatibility with international norms, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International sent a joint letter to the Israeli parliament in July to urge legislators to reject it. As the letter stated, in blunt terms, ?The proposed law is discriminatory. It targets a category of individuals purely on the basis of nationality or ethnicity, and prevents them from living with their spouses and children.?

Even Israel?s most reliable supporters appear concerned about the law. Last week, U.S. State Department spokesman Philip Reeker was called on to comment on it. Although Reeker seemed reluctant to use the word ?discrimination,? he acknowledged that ?the new law singles out one group for different treatment than others.?

Perhaps more surprisingly, Abraham H. Foxman, the director of the pro-Israel Anti-Defamation League, issued a statement implicitly criticizing the new law. Noting that the law will expire after one year, Foxman said that the ADL hopes that Israel?s parliament will review the law when it expires ?and explore other methods to ensure Israel's security needs.?

Lessons from History

Jews have good reason to oppose discriminatory citizenship laws, having historically been a target of them.

In European countries during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Jews and other minority populations were often excluded from citizenship. It was not until 1791, after the French Revolution, that France became the first European country to extend full citizenship rights to Jews.

Adrien Jean François Duport, the Frenchman who proposed the motion on Jewish citizenship, spoke eloquently about the unfairness of singling out specific groups for adverse treatment. Discussing the right to citizenship, he concluded: ?Jews cannot alone be excluded from the enjoyment of these rights, when pagans, Turks, Muslims, even Chinese ? in short, men of all sects ? are granted them.?

Last week, a legal organization for Arab minority rights challenged the constitutionality of the new Israeli law in a petition filed with Israel?s High Court of Justice. In considering the law, perhaps the court will understand that Palestinians, too, should not be excluded from rights that others enjoy.

 

[SpeedZealot369]

Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Oh, so your saying if Israel doesn't react militarily to violence then all the problems would be solved!

WRONG that's exactly what they've been doing up until now, it's TIME FOR ACTION