"Thank you, Israel"

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The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Bond, I noticed you missed this part from earlier.

Originally posted by: The Raven
I noticed in reading this thread that people were going back and forth about who started what and who came from where, etc. But I don't think the spewing off of "facts" by everyone contributes much to this "discussion." This is exactly what the ME countries have been doing since time began and is the reason they are still fighting. You don't need any knowledge about history to stop a fight. In fact, that is what perpetuates this kind of thing. If BOTH sides could just forgive each other and forget about the troubles of the past then we wouldn't have this situation. But they won't, and that is why Israel is attacking. Let's just pray that it will resolve the decades of suffering.

We all should know that there are biases in both the news and by association the history books (especially religious records such as the Bible and the Torah). I don't know why you guys were linking to Lebanese papers to make pro-Lebanese points and Israeli papers to make pro-Israeli points. That's not very good rhetoric.

Let's just stick to the simple facts, that is, the things that pretty much everyone agrees are true. I think everyone here, and in the ME, should live in the now and plan for the future. Things would be a lot better.

All the linking of stories of the Israelies attacking shows is that you are ignoring that fact that the Hez are attacking Israel still. You have to share the entire story not just what "proves" your point.

As for the history: are you saying that every person in the ME should know their history to stop the maddness? Well if you do, then good luck teaching the entire region decades of unadulterated violent history. Like that would do any good.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: SpeedZealot369

Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Oh, so your saying if Israel doesn't react militarily to violence then all the problems would be solved!

WRONG that's exactly what they've been doing up until now, ITS TIME FOR ACTION

What the hell have you been smoking. Are you claming that israel has never reacted millitarily before?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: The Raven
Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Originally posted by: The Raven

No you're not, but like I said, you got frustrated and now you're driving people away with your words.

Israel got frustrated and their driving people away with bombs (and the subsequent civilian casualties)

But of course you weren't attacked by the Hez, so why would you resort to violence?
The Israelis were, and that is why they have.

Here's me not holding Israel to the same standard. (excuse the sarcasm)

No, you're NOT holding Israel to the same standard. You're excusing Israel's attack against the entire nation of Lebanon, a compratively defenseless Lebanon at that, for the Hezbollah raid that netted TWO Israeli soldiers captured.

Are you saying that Israel is right and their response to the capture of two of their soldiers by leveling Lebanon's civilian infrastructure and killing Lebanese civilians -- including civilians who are fleeing from the Israeli massacre -- is proportional???

In other words, are you saying Israel has the right to hold an entire nation responsible for the actions of a few and that they are right in destroying that nation and attacking the civilian population at will?

And please, don't give me the line about surgical strikes. I've seen the pictures. There is nothing surgical about them. Israel is conducting wanton destruction without regard to civilians or public infrastructure against a nation that is essentially defenseless.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: alejandroAT
right....i can understand how i might be misunderstood...exuse my passion but these are troubled days and we are all on an edge...

i really do not want to come across as a fanatic or an absolutist...

what i mean by "the wolrd doesnt like jews" is " the world does not agree with Israelly politics." (except of course by the US which has a loooong history of support for regimes of all sorts, military and not.

And by "ghetto" i mean it in a completely metaphorical way...not an actual ghetto as in a housing complex isolated from the rest of the city.

All of my life i have learned to be sympathetic towards the jews mainly because of the hundreds of films produced by hollywood on the subject of the holocaust. But after a while you start questioning a few things..Like in what way are the Jews better than their enemies? Having classifications of citizenship is an outright Nazzi practice...The fact that in Israel exists such a thing as a second and third class citizen based solely on the cleanliness of your ethnicity makes you think doesnt it?

I just cant bring myself to give Israel a moral blank cheque anymore for the sake of a mistreatment that happened over 60 years ago!!

Most people are ignorant about Israel and the Middle East and the Muslim propaganda machine.

Arab Nations realized they could'nt obiliterate Israel by straight on conflict so they used deceit. ?War is deceit,? said the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, and his followers always have put his words into practice when they are outnumbered or out gunned.

How? Well in the Israeli conflict they redefined the conflct for Western consumption and many are buying it hook line and sinker. We love undergods so the "Palestinian people" were born. And in Western Europe, a campaign of misinformation and vilification of Israel began. Redefined as one not of the mighty Arabs nations against tiny Israel where the whole world backed Israel - but instead as one "of national self-determination" and the "legitimiate rights of the "Palestinian people", an even tinyer peoples than Jews, an even bigger underdog than Jews. Worked like a charm!

The old antisemites in the west combined with entire generations grown up in Europe on this intellectual dishonestly of "Palestinian people" and their "rights" have learned to hate Israel, Jews and thier right to exist. The Arab goals never changed, the obliteration of Israel, the lessor Jihad, they are just using a proxy of immigrants to implement it. Arab nations and Iran fund, give men, advisors and materials since thier inception just for that purpose.

As far as Isreals right besides 3000 years of history there - they did buy all the land from Ottoman turks and Arab land holders starting in the 1880's when fleeing Europe and Asia not to mention all the international agreements of the settlement of israel. To include The "Settlements" as the west began to call them are perfectly legit and written into the "mandate of Palestine" ( which meant Jews back then, look it up) way back in the 20s by League of Nations (UN's predesessor). Israel should have never unilaterally withdrawn from Gaza settlements! Its thiers. And of course, if that were not enough, "all the rules of warfare and postwar settlement" should apply! Look that up too. These are the same rules that entitled Italy to keep the Algo Adige after World War I, or allowed Poland to keep part of what was East Prussia, or the French to firmly incorporate, once and for all, Alsace-Lorraine. Are you telling me these rules suddenly cease to apply when it comes to Israel's victory in the Six-Day War or the hundreds of other attacks against it??? Baloney.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: The Raven
Bond, I noticed you missed this part from earlier.

Originally posted by: The Raven
I noticed in reading this thread that people were going back and forth about who started what and who came from where, etc. But I don't think the spewing off of "facts" by everyone contributes much to this "discussion." This is exactly what the ME countries have been doing since time began and is the reason they are still fighting. You don't need any knowledge about history to stop a fight. In fact, that is what perpetuates this kind of thing. If BOTH sides could just forgive each other and forget about the troubles of the past then we wouldn't have this situation. But they won't, and that is why Israel is attacking. Let's just pray that it will resolve the decades of suffering.

We all should know that there are biases in both the news and by association the history books (especially religious records such as the Bible and the Torah). I don't know why you guys were linking to Lebanese papers to make pro-Lebanese points and Israeli papers to make pro-Israeli points. That's not very good rhetoric.

Let's just stick to the simple facts, that is, the things that pretty much everyone agrees are true. I think everyone here, and in the ME, should live in the now and plan for the future. Things would be a lot better.

All the linking of stories of the Israelies attacking shows is that you are ignoring that fact that the Hez are attacking Israel still. You have to share the entire story not just what "proves" your point.

As for the history: are you saying that every person in the ME should know their history to stop the maddness? Well if you do, then good luck teaching the entire region decades of unadulterated violent history. Like that would do any good.

Let's compare the civilian deaths and infrastructure damage between Israel with their modern U.S. supplied military and Hezbollah with rockets that don't even have guidance systems.

Is Israel in ruins? What is the ratio of dead civilians?
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Sorry it just the bold parts so read carefully:

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

Israel's Nationality Law relates to anyone wishing to settle in Israel, as well as those already residing or born there, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political beliefs. Citizenship may be acquired by:

Birth

The Law of Return

Residence

Naturalization




Acquisition of Nationality by Birth is granted to:

Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or father who are Israeli citizens.

Persons born outside Israel, if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.

Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent was an Israeli citizen by virtue of the conditions enumerated above at the time of death.

Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in law, if they:

apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and
have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.


Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return

On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew...." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen.

Since 1970 the right to immigrate under this Law has been extended to include the child and the grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure the unity of families where intermarriage had occurred; it does not apply to persons who had been a Jews and had voluntarily changed their religion.

An oleh's certificate may be denied to persons who:

engage in activity directed against the Jewish people;
may endanger public health or the security of the state;<
have a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare.



Acquisition of by Residence

Special provision is made in the Nationality Law for former citizens of British Mandatory Palestine. Those who remained in Israel from the establishment of the State in 1948 until the enactment of the Nationality Law of 1952 became Israeli citizens by residence or by return.

According to an amendment (1980), further possibilities to acquire citizenship by residence were included in the law.



Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:

they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;

they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intended to settle in Israel;

they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements.
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
originally posted by SpeedZealot369

Oh, so your saying if Israel doesn't react militarily to violence then all the problems would be solved!

WRONG that's exactly what they've been doing up until now, ITS TIME FOR ACTION

????????what????? you are saying that Israel has NOT been militarily active for the past 50+ years???
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo




Arab Nations realized they could'nt obiliterate Israel by straight on conflict so they used deceit. ?War is deceit,? said the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, and his followers always have put his words into practice when they are outnumbered or out gunned.

bush must have read the Prophet Muhammad too. :roll:
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Zebo




Arab Nations realized they could'nt obiliterate Israel by straight on conflict so they used deceit. ?War is deceit,? said the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, and his followers always have put his words into practice when they are outnumbered or out gunned.

bush must have read the Prophet Muhammad too. :roll:

That makes little sense. Muhammad and Bush were/are illiterate.
 

SpeedZealot369

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2006
2,778
1
81
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: SpeedZealot369

Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Oh, so your saying if Israel doesn't react militarily to violence then all the problems would be solved!

WRONG that's exactly what they've been doing up until now, ITS TIME FOR ACTION

What the hell have you been smoking. Are you claming that israel has never reacted millitarily before?

I don't think I said never anywhere in my post. Majority of the time Israel restrains from action because the UN and everyone are always breathing down thier neck.



Maybe the lebenese who reject hizballah would take some action and stop hiding these hizballah cowards in civilan buildings and playgrounds.

Either way Israel is doing what it takes, and EVERYONE else should be thankfull that someone is taking a stand against terrorism.

EDITED for some discretion (sorry bout that)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Zebo




Arab Nations realized they could'nt obiliterate Israel by straight on conflict so they used deceit. ?War is deceit,? said the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, and his followers always have put his words into practice when they are outnumbered or out gunned.

bush must have read the Prophet Muhammad too. :roll:

 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
In the meantime, read this piece on Israel's new citizenship laws from Find Law:

Israel?s New Citizenship Law: A Separation Wall Through the Heart
Adrien Jean François Duport, the Frenchman who proposed the motion on Jewish citizenship, spoke eloquently about the unfairness of singling out specific groups for adverse treatment. Discussing the right to citizenship, he concluded: ?Jews cannot alone be excluded from the enjoyment of these rights, when pagans, Turks, Muslims, even Chinese ? in short, men of all sects ? are granted them.?

Last week, a legal organization for Arab minority rights challenged the constitutionality of the new Israeli law in a petition filed with Israel?s High Court of Justice. In considering the law, perhaps the court will understand that Palestinians, too, should not be excluded from rights that others enjoy.
[/quote]
[/quote]

That's actually a good article to back your argument. I don't regret reading it like some of the others you have posted.

I'm not pro-Israeli and I don't think they are perfect. Hell we have done much worse than this in our history and that is why I don't think you should be demonizing Israel. That is my whole point.
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
I believe this is the only way for peace, slowly slowly hizballah would realise that these "suicide bombings" that are in the "name of god" are just not worth it anymore. It would take then awhile to realise it - yes, but in the end when it finnaly hits them all violence would come to a stop.

Correct me if i am wrong but didn't america bomb in the name of God too? i distinctly remember Bush claiming that he was doing Gods work!!!
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond

Let's compare the civilian deaths and infrastructure damage between Israel with their modern U.S. supplied military and Hezbollah with rockets that don't even have guidance systems.

Is Israel in ruins? What is the ratio of dead civilians?

Oh so you can't make an omlet w/o breaking some eggs?!
 

SpeedZealot369

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2006
2,778
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond

Let's compare the civilian deaths and infrastructure damage between Israel with their modern U.S. supplied military and Hezbollah with rockets that don't even have guidance systems.

Is Israel in ruins? What is the ratio of dead civilians?



Well maybe if hizballah wasnt hiding behind civilans they would be easier targets...

Which probably the only reason there are any civilian casualties in the first place.
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Edit: Whoops forgot the quote!

Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: The Raven
Originally posted by: BBond
You keep telling me about chasing people away but you don't hold Israel to the same standard. Do you think Israel is ever going to change the attitude of Arab nations by bombing them into oblivion?

NO. They'll only create more groups like Hezbollah.

Originally posted by: The Raven

No you're not, but like I said, you got frustrated and now you're driving people away with your words.

Israel got frustrated and their driving people away with bombs (and the subsequent civilian casualties)

But of course you weren't attacked by the Hez, so why would you resort to violence?
The Israelis were, and that is why they have.

Here's me not holding Israel to the same standard. (excuse the sarcasm)

No, you're NOT holding Israel to the same standard. You're excusing Israel's attack against the entire nation of Lebanon, a compratively defenseless Lebanon at that, for the Hezbollah raid that netted TWO Israeli soldiers captured.

I was only speaking of the persuasive tactics. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
Oh so you can't make an omlet w/o breaking some eggs?!

apparently not...if israel has to kill hundreds of children and civilians to achieve its omelette it certainly looks like it is prepared to do so...but thats not the worst thing...The worst thing that it is pretty much asking for moral permission to do it....absolutelly no regrets.

If we are saying that Hezbollah are animals because they use innocents as shields, then why are we justifying the jews for doing 10 times the damage?
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
You're excusing Israel's attack against the entire nation of Lebanon, a compratively defenseless Lebanon at that, for the Hezbollah raid that netted TWO Israeli soldiers captured.

I'm sorry I just assumed someone sooooo knowledgable had heard!

The Hez are firing rockets on Israel.
 

SpeedZealot369

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2006
2,778
1
81
Originally posted by: alejandroAT


If we are saying that Hezbollah are animals because they use innocents as shields, then why are we justifying the jews for doing 10 times the damage?


Because they are trying to get rid of the animals

Israel are the good guys here, this shows through with the support they are starting to slowly get.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: alejandroAT
Oh so you can't make an omlet w/o breaking some eggs?!

apparently not...if israel has to kill hundreds of children and civilians to achieve its omelette it certainly looks like it is prepared to do so...but thats not the worst thing...The worst thing that it is pretty much asking for moral permission to do it....absolutelly no regrets.

If we are saying that Hezbollah are animals because they use innocents as shields, then why are we justifying the jews for doing 10 times the damage?

Unfortunatly Israel is not targeting civilians. I wish they would war would cease (see my post above on evolutionary psychology & family responsibility) Unlike Hezbolla who rains down rockets indiscriminatly on Israels cities. The civilians that Israel kills is accidental while targeting, dual use, military and terrorist installations - Dragging morals into a fight Hez and Hamas is much more immoral. First by attacking first, second by thier targeting of only Israeli civilians.

 

SpeedZealot369

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2006
2,778
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: alejandroAT
Oh so you can't make an omlet w/o breaking some eggs?!

apparently not...if israel has to kill hundreds of children and civilians to achieve its omelette it certainly looks like it is prepared to do so...but thats not the worst thing...The worst thing that it is pretty much asking for moral permission to do it....absolutelly no regrets.

If we are saying that Hezbollah are animals because they use innocents as shields, then why are we justifying the jews for doing 10 times the damage?

Unfortunatly Israel is not targeting civilians. I wish they would war would ceace (see my post above on evolutionary psychology & family responsibility) Unlike Hezbolla who rains down rockets indiscriminatly on Israels cities. The civilians that Israel kills is accidental while targeting, dual use, military and terrorist installations - Hez and Hamas is much more immoral. First by attacking first, second by thier targeting of only Israeli civilians.

GOOD POST ZEBO! :thumbsup:
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
Because they are trying to get rid of the animals

Israel are the good guys here, this shows through with the support they are starting to slowly get.

This mentality is dangerous my friend....the end justifies the means? whatever it takes? a head for an eye? is that it?

they kill 1 we kill 10? and we are still the good guys?

very very dangerous thinking. This is probably why the US has been bombing the world for 50 years in order to "liberate" it.
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
Unfortunatly Israel is not targeting civilians. I wish they would war would ceace (see my post above on evolutionary psychology & family responsibility) Unlike Hezbolla who rains down rockets indiscriminatly on Israels cities. The civilians that Israel kills is accidental while targeting, dual use, military and terrorist installations - Hez and Hamas is much more immoral. First by attacking first, second by thier targeting of only Israeli civilians.[q/]

In the same way the US wasnt targeting hospitals in Kosovo???? sorry but a "oops i m sorry , wrong target" doesnt cut it any more
 

alejandroAT

Senior member
Apr 27, 2006
210
0
0
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES AM I DEFENDING HEZBOLLAH...plz do not keep talking to me like i am...

The point is what Israel is doing...Hezbollah are animals and thats the end.....Is Israel about to become a murderous machine too??? this is the logic i do not understand
 

The Raven

Senior member
Oct 11, 2005
297
0
0
Originally posted by: alejandroAT
Oh so you can't make an omlet w/o breaking some eggs?!

apparently not...if israel has to kill hundreds of children and civilians to achieve its omelette it certainly looks like it is prepared to do so...but thats not the worst thing...The worst thing that it is pretty much asking for moral permission to do it....absolutelly no regrets.

Hey who said you could take my italics out?! J/k

Sorry that comment was pretty ambiguous. I just meant that it seemed that Bond thought that since it was just 2 guys that got swiped then it shouldn't matter to the Israelis. How many then should it be then before they do something? Is there a set number? How about 3000. Like on 911. An attack is an attack. Plain as that.
 
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