Thanks, Apple...

[WelshBloke]

Maybe you should start a petition or something....

Maybe he could link his thread in his sig?

 

[alent1234]

It's quite different in education. It's been my experience that Apple is the least flexible, the highest priced, and the most restrictive.

ipad an iphone are the cash cows. i bought a macbook with an education discount but there is no discount for iphones and ipads.

but try dealing with IBM or Oracle. we have a product that IBM bought years ago. we just licensed it again last year. turns out the new version we have is missing a piece that was in prior versions and now it's going to cause a lot more dev time.

one company i've dealt with that sells tape libraries tried to tell us that we would have to buy their overpriced branded LTO-4 tapes in order to get full support.

i'll take dealing with apple and microsoft over almost any other company any day.

 

[zsdersw]

ipad an iphone are the cash cows. i bought a macbook with an education discount but there is no discount for iphones and ipads.

but try dealing with IBM or Oracle. we have a product that IBM bought years ago. we just licensed it again last year. turns out the new version we have is missing a piece that was in prior versions and now it's going to cause a lot more dev time.

one company i've dealt with that sells tape libraries tried to tell us that we would have to buy their overpriced branded LTO-4 tapes in order to get full support.

i'll take dealing with apple and microsoft over almost any other company any day.

I have no need for IBM or Oracle's products. I don't deny that dealing with them is as difficult as you say it is, but how does that justify what Apple is doing?

Why should I be satisfied with Apple simply because IBM and Oracle are worse when I have no need to do any business with IBM or Oracle?

 

[soccerballtux]

Sparkly icons and widgets that grade schoolers are drawn to like a moth to a flame?


I jest, I jest...

but look at it, it's a fantastic learning device!

 

[zsdersw]

but look at it, it's a fantastic learning device!

It is, actually.

 

[WelshBloke]

It is, actually.

But not fantastic enough to pay what they are asking?

 

[zsdersw]

But not fantastic enough to pay what they are asking?

It depends. For the elementary, which is where we're starting the 1:1 project, it is the only device that justifies the cost because of the educational apps.

Curriculum and usage characteristics at the middle and high school levels are harder to fit with the iPad (or any other tablet).

 

[manly]

Restrictions to prevent resale/export? This isn't some fly-by-night, mom-and-pop operation... it's CDW. It's also not just iPads... it's just about everything with the Apple logo on it.

The financial risks that major vendors like CDW would face if they ever violated Apple's restrictions makes it very much in retailers' interests to avoid such violations.

CDW is the biggest reseller, so what? Apple's policies are not targeted at the reseller or school district, but to purchasers with the intent to resell. I actually stated Apple is ineffectual in both enterprise and educational institution sales. I believe there's certainly room for improvement here under Tim Cook's leadership.

Now I don't do any K-12 buying, but Apple certainly treats the iPad more strictly than other products. Like you said, CDW doesn't want to lose its Apple account so it has to play by the rules. It's unfortunate that you feel snared in the net, and that isn't a defense of Apple.

 

[Tom]

It is disturbing that someone in the k12 education business cannot see the link between the cost of the ipad and WHY it is a fantastic learning device.

The people who created the ipad, and the people who create the software for it, are in business to make innovative, quality products that people want and work really well.

For the most part, the rest of the industry is trying to make money by avoiding the cost of innovation and just copy what they can. They aren't driven by the same goal, their goal is profit or market share. That doesn't lead to quality.

btw, does resale value have a place in your calculations ? I would think ipads have a much better resale value, if that's an option.

 

[akugami]

It is disturbing that someone in the k12 education business cannot see the link between the cost of the ipad and WHY it is a fantastic learning device.

I don't think that's the case at all. The "problem" as he sees it is that Apple is so inflexible with the pricing when they make a crap ton of profits off of each iDevice. Just remember all of those reports on how Apple, with less than 30% of mobile devices sold makes at least 50% of all revenue (or was it profits?). Most Android makers are actually breaking even or only making a small amount of money. The major exception being Samsung. I stated earlier in the thread that Apple can easily give a $50 discount and sell it at a 10 pack. This makes buying a 10 pack of iPads much more palatable and Apple still makes a killing.

The people who created the ipad, and the people who create the software for it, are in business to make innovative, quality products that people want and work really well.

The same can be said for Android. No one goes into any business with the goal of stinking up the place.

For the most part, the rest of the industry is trying to make money by avoiding the cost of innovation and just copy what they can. They aren't driven by the same goal, their goal is profit or market share. That doesn't lead to quality.

Agreed. One of the reasons I've stayed with iOS is the polish, and while it's not the most full featured, it certainly has the polish and the apps that make it suitable for general worry free usage and being a fantastic educational device for my kids. I don't think anyone is seeing anything new from me when I say that it is my opinion that Android's success was piggybacking off of Apple's iOS. Just like MS piggybacked off of Apple's MacOS. That doesn't make Android a bad OS at this point in time or that there aren't decent Android devices that can serve almost equally well at a much better price point.

btw, does resale value have a place in your calculations ? I would think ipads have a much better resale value, if that's an option.

Probably not. They'd be using these for years and years and by the time they want to upgrade, the value of the iPads they bought would likely be pretty low. Mobile devices are simply moving too fast at this point.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Apple figured out a long time ago that there's more $ to be made selling to consumers, why should they cut their own throats to sell to corporations or education?

 

[Mopetar]

Apple figured out a long time ago that there's more $ to be made selling to consumers, why should they cut their own throats to sell to corporations or education?

Once upon a time it made sense to cut your throat to get into the corporate and education market as consumers were more likely to purchase their computers based on what they were familiar with at work.

The dynamic has certainly changed a lot since then, but there's still something to be said for getting businesses and schools to use your technology. Apple often likes to bring up the fact that a large number of the Fortune x00 are using their phones/tablets/computers, so they probably don't view it as worthless.

The real reason they won't cut their margins is because there's no need for them to do so. The app availability for iOS is so much better than other platforms right now as far as Education goes. Until that changes, Apple ends up being the only legitimate choice. Even the OP pointed out that even though an Android solution wouldn't be an issue, there isn't the software in place to make it a viable option.

Also there have been a lot of rumors that Apple will be start offering textbooks in the near future. If they have any kind of exclusivity in place, that will only further cement their position in education. If they can get kids used to their platform, odds are that they will stick with it in the future.

 

[Pliablemoose]

The real reason they won't cut their margins is because there's no need for them to do so.

Exactly.

 

[adamantinepiggy]

So why don't you just go with IPAD"1"'s? a whole lot cheaper and does everything the Ipad2's does. The kids aren't going to see any differences in performance. Same OS, same screen rez, same warrantee, etc, etc. Only real diff is the processor, and the real-world performance difference with specific software like educational ones is nill. Long-term support costs are not going to be any different between the two models either. If the REAL reasoning is simply to get ipad machines into hands with a limited budget, the ipad1's lower cost and negligible difference in performance is the way to go.

 

[Mopetar]

So why don't you just go with IPAD"1"'s? a whole lot cheaper and does everything the Ipad2's does.

At this point you'd need to buy them all second-hand or refurbished, and if you're trying to buy a large quantity it's unlikely that you can get either from a single source.

 

[zsdersw]

The real reason they won't cut their margins is because there's no need for them to do so.

Exactly.

Obviously, and that was never in dispute... but that doesn't mean criticism is unjustified, which seems to be the gist of what many people in this thread are saying.

 

[zsdersw]

It is disturbing that someone in the k12 education business cannot see the link between the cost of the ipad and WHY it is a fantastic learning device.

Get what you pay for? No, akugami got it right. I understand that premium products cost more and that there's valid reasons for that cost. That doesn't mean I have to be satisfied with not getting a discount for buying those products in volume, however.

 

[zsdersw]

CDW is the biggest reseller, so what? Apple's policies are not targeted at the reseller or school district, but to purchasers with the intent to resell. I actually stated Apple is ineffectual in both enterprise and educational institution sales. I believe there's certainly room for improvement here under Tim Cook's leadership.

Purchasers with the intent to resell... is that CDW? If not, why treat them like they are? The distinction you're trying to create doesn't make any sense as you worded it.

Yes, there is indeed a lot of room for improvement. And we've communicated as much to Tim Cook.

Now I don't do any K-12 buying, but Apple certainly treats the iPad more strictly than other products. Like you said, CDW doesn't want to lose its Apple account so it has to play by the rules. It's unfortunate that you feel snared in the net, and that isn't a defense of Apple.

It's not just the iPad that has these restrictions.

 

[manly]

Purchasers with the intent to resell... is that CDW? If not, why treat them like they are? The distinction you're trying to create doesn't make any sense as you worded it.

Yes, there is indeed a lot of room for improvement. And we've communicated as much to Tim Cook.

If I was unclear, let me connect the dots. While neither CDW or a school district is in the business of exporting Apple products to other markets, it's conceivable that some individuals would do so. The reason is quite simple, Apple products prevailing prices in many parts of the world are higher than the equivalent in U.S. dollars. In short, their reseller policies exist to prevent a person from acquiring U.S. SKUs and selling them at a nifty profit in Brazil or China, for example. I'm sure you understand the difference between CDW, an authorized reseller vs. a small business that's exporting goods to another country or continent.

There are valid reasons why these regional price disparities exist (operational and regulatory) and Apple doesn't have to concede arbitrage profits to private parties without an attempt at protectionalism. Like other multinationals, Apple does business internationally and separates geographic areas into different fiefdoms, so to speak.

It's not just the iPad that has these restrictions.

While I haven't dealt with K-12 procurement specifically, I'm familiar enough with Apple authorized resellers to know the iPad is more restrictive than Macs or iPods. Can't you get 10 Macs from your CDW account manager with some modest percentage off?

Not to absolve Apple of responsibility to improve its enterprise and edu sales, but it's subjective for a customer to bemoan lackluster bid pricing. While you may well have a valid complaint here, at what point are you satisfied? 8% off, 15% off? What's the cut-off point where Apple gets to decide how it chooses to price its own products?

Is akugami a hedge fund manager w/ a large block of Apple shares? How does he decide that $50 off per unit is a reasonable discount for a bulk iPad purchase order?

 

[HeXen]

shouldn't OP be an email to Apple and not another ATOT bashing thread?

 

[zsdersw]

If I was unclear, let me connect the dots. While neither CDW or a school district is in the business of exporting Apple products to other markets, it's conceivable that some individuals would do so. The reason is quite simple, Apple products prevailing prices in many parts of the world are higher than the equivalent in U.S. dollars. In short, their reseller policies exist to prevent a person from acquiring U.S. SKUs and selling them at a nifty profit in Brazil or China, for example. I'm sure you understand the difference between CDW, an authorized reseller vs. a small business that's exporting goods to another country or continent.

Connect the dots? Save your condescension for someone else.

Who exactly, among the customers of CDWG, would conceivably do this? CDWG doesn't sell to individuals, only government, education, and healthcare agencies, institutions, and companies respectively.

While I haven't dealt with K-12 procurement specifically, I'm familiar enough with Apple authorized resellers to know the iPad is more restrictive than Macs or iPods. Can't you get 10 Macs from your CDW account manager with some modest percentage off?

Computers, yes... anything from Apple for the iPad (cables, cases, etc.) no. Accessories for the iPad are not available for sale to K12s in quantity.

Not to absolve Apple of responsibility to improve its enterprise and edu sales, but it's subjective for a customer to bemoan lackluster bid pricing. While you may well have a valid complaint here, at what point are you satisfied? 8% off, 15% off? What's the cut-off point where Apple gets to decide how it chooses to price its own products?

I'm looking for a discount that increases with quantity, like I can get from almost any reseller/wholesaler on almost any product. It's not about an exact dollar or percentage.

 

[zsdersw]

shouldn't OP be an email to Apple and not another ATOT bashing thread?

An email to Apple has already been sent. I'll make whatever thread about Apple that I choose.

 

[MaxFusion16]

help me understand this, why should apple give you a break on ipad pricing?

they are not willing to budge on price because they obviously have no problem moving them at the current price, supply and demand. other reason being brand dilution, the ipad is a premium product, selling them for substantially below the MSRP dilutes their brand value.

Clothing labels would often rather destroy excess inventory than liquidating them on the cheap.

Why do you think the other android tablet makers are so eager to work on price? It's certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts, nobody wants to leave money on the table, but they simply can't compete with the iPad, except on pricing.

feel free to go with android tablets, I'm sure apple's not missing your business.

 

[akugami]

Not to absolve Apple of responsibility to improve its enterprise and edu sales, but it's subjective for a customer to bemoan lackluster bid pricing. While you may well have a valid complaint here, at what point are you satisfied? 8% off, 15% off? What's the cut-off point where Apple gets to decide how it chooses to price its own products?

Is akugami a hedge fund manager w/ a large block of Apple shares? How does he decide that $50 off per unit is a reasonable discount for a bulk iPad purchase order?

Apple can do whatever they want and their current educational discount is entirely legal.

I am not a fund manager and I have zero Apple shares. If I had a large block of Apple shares I'd be rooting for them to scrounge up every last penny available from consumer pockets. I wouldn't want them to discount a thing.

I figure $50 is a reasonable discount because that's about a 10% discount on a product where Apple makes much much more than 10% off of. We all know Apple makes a killing on their iPads with iSuppli breaking down the hardware cost at about $330'ish for the 32GB model. Granted this doesn't take account of R&D costs. The $50 price also takes into account the 10 pack requirement. All things considered, even with a $50 discount, Apple would be making over $100 per iPad.

 

[zsdersw]

help me understand this, why should apple give you a break on ipad pricing?

Give me a break? No, not me personally. They should give schools a break... to show they are interested in getting as many iPads in schools as they can.

The iPad is a great product for elementary school education. Apple would be making an even greater contribution to children's education if it made it a little more affordable for schools to get them.

they are not willing to budge on price because they obviously have no problem moving them at the current price, supply and demand. other reason being brand dilution, the ipad is a premium product, selling them for substantially below the MSRP dilutes their brand value.

I'm aware of all of this. None of those things exempt them from criticism.

Why do you think the other android tablet makers are so eager to work on price? It's certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts, nobody wants to leave money on the table, but they simply can't compete with the iPad, except on pricing.

Android tablet makers aren't willing to work on price in individual volumes either. The issue is Apple's "discount" is the same, whether your institution buys 10, 100, 1000, 10000, or 100,000 iPads.. and it only applies to 10-packs.

feel free to go with android tablets, I'm sure apple's not missing your business.

I won't miss not doing business with Apple for the majority of this project either.