The 2014 Formula1 Thread!

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merlion

Senior member
May 2, 2003
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Following Daniel Ricciardo's exclusion from second place in the Australian Grand Prix, the FIA stewards issued the following explanation for their decision:


1) The Technical Delegate reported to the Stewards that Car 3 exceeded the required fuel mass flow of 100kg/h. (Article 5.1.4 of the Formula One Technical Regulations)

2) This parameter is outside of the control of the driver, Daniel Ricciardo.

3) The fuel flow is measured using the fuel flow sensor (Art. 5.10.3 & 5.10.4 of the Technical Regulations) which is homologated by the FIA and owned and operated by the team.

4) The stewards considered the history of the fitted fuel flow sensor, as described by the team and the Technical Delegate’s representative who administers the program. Their description of the history of the sensor matches.

a. During Practice 1 a difference in reading between the first three and Run 4 was detected. The same readings as Run 4 were observed throughout Practice 2.

b. The team used a different sensor on Saturday but did not get readings that were satisfactory to them or the FIA, so they were instructed to change the sensor within Parc Ferme on Saturday night.

c. They operated the original sensor during the race, which provided the same readings as Run 4 of Practice 1, and Practice 2.

5) The Stewards heard from the technical representative that when the sensor was installed on Saturday night, he instructed the team to apply an offset to their fuel flow such that the fuel flow would have been legal. He presented an email to the stewards that verified his instruction.

6) The technical representative stated to the Stewards that there is variation in the sensors. However, the sensors fall within a known range, and are individually calibrated. They then become the standard which the teams must use for their fuel flow.

7) The team stated that based on the difference observed between the two readings in P1, they considered the fuel flow sensor to be unreliable. Therefore, for the start of the race they chose to use their internal fuel flow model, rather than the values provided by the sensor, with the required offset.

8) Technical Directive 016*14 (1 March 2014) provides the methodology by which the sensor will be used, and, should the sensor fail, the method by which the alternate model could be used.

a. The Technical Directive starts by stating: “The homologated fuel flow sensor will be the primary measurement of the fuel flow and will be used to check compliance with Articles 5.1.4 and 5.1.5 of the F1 Technical Regulations…” This is in conformity with Articles 5.10.3 and 5.10.4 of the Technical Regulations.

b. The Technical Directive goes on to state: “If at any time WE consider that the sensor has an issue which has not been detected by the system WE will communicate this to the team concerned and switch to a backup system” (emphasis added.)

c. The backup system is the calculated fuel flow model with a correction factor decided by the FIA.

9) The FIA technical representative observed thought the telemetry during the race that the fuel flow was too high and contacted the team, giving them the opportunity to follow his previous instruction, and reduce the fuel flow such that it was within the limit, as measured by the homologated sensor – and thus gave the team the opportunity to be within compliance. The team chose not to make this correction.

10) Under Art. 3.2 of the Sporting Regulations it is the duty of the team to ensure compliance with the Technical Regulations throughout the Event. Thus the Stewards find that:

A) The team chose to run the car using their fuel flow model, without direction from the FIA. This is a violation of the procedure within TD/ 016*14.

B) That although the sensor showed a difference in readings between runs in P1, it remains the homologated and required sensor against which the team is obliged to measure their fuel flow, unless given permission by the FIA to do otherwise.

C) The Stewards were satisfied by the explanation of the technical representative that by making an adjustment as instructed, the team could have run within the allowable fuel flow.

D) That regardless of the team’s assertion that the sensor was fault, it is not within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the permission of the FIA.

Quite the explanation I'd say. It will be interesting to see how the appeal plays out. Beyond regulating that each car is allowed 100 kg of fuel per race, why complicate matters with how it is delivered during the course of the race?
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
91
Quite the explanation I'd say. It will be interesting to see how the appeal plays out. Beyond regulating that each car is allowed 100 kg of fuel per race, why complicate matters with how it is delivered during the course of the race?
Agreed!
 

KingstonU

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2006
1,405
16
81
I kind of like that the cars are quieter. We get more information that way, such as tire noise and crowd cheers. Which makes watching a racer a richer experience. Also, I like the richer, more varied nature of the sounds. The turbines whistling away and occasional valve dumping make for a dramatic sound track.

Completely agree with this. I feel we get more information about what is going on. Hearing the crowds cheering (or booing if its Vettel) helps engross you into the atmosphere. It also simply "sounds" cutting edge.
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
So basically the sensors are unreliable and the teams will be penalized for it. Of course its sure looks like RB told the inspectors to pound sand and we're doing what we want so are now paying the price. As mentioned, they have a set amount of fuel so let the teams use it how they wish.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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i like the way the cars sound. there's more variation and details now instead of just hairdryers, and being able to hear other things adds atmosphere.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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The purpose of the fuel flow rule is to have a certain efficiency level and a certain emissions level. A higher flow rate means less fuel efficiency and greater emissions.

That said, this looks more like punishment for not doing what they were advised to do.
 

Bardock

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
346
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91
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4Dh_EAfJI

I have seen F1 in person, 2003 Candian Grand Prix.

The cars were so loud you had to use earplugs a mile away from them.

3.0L V10 powered monsters that reved to 18,000 - 20,000.

Now they sound like a girls lawn mower. I hope they still go fast.

And They look weird.
 

tweakmonkey

Senior member
Mar 11, 2013
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A higher flow rate means less fuel efficiency and greater emissions.

Also more power. If they can run more fuel, that means they can run more air, and the car can make more power. Like NASCAR's air restrictor plates, the fuel flow limit is a way to cap power output over a given amount of time. Otherwise a team that's behind could crank the boost and run more power.
 

tweakmonkey

Senior member
Mar 11, 2013
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4Dh_EAfJI

I have seen F1 in person, 2003 Candian Grand Prix.

The cars were so loud you had to use earplugs a mile away from them.

3.0L V10 powered monsters that reved to 18,000 - 20,000.

Now they sound like a girls lawn mower. I hope they still go fast.

And They look weird.
The on-car stuff sounds good at least. I think the main problem I had with the broadcast of Australia's race is that the balance of Commentator volume versus Car volume wasn't quite right. They should've turned down the commentator or turned up the track volume a bit.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,943
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The on-car stuff sounds good at least. I think the main problem I had with the broadcast of Australia's race is that the balance of Commentator volume versus Car volume wasn't quite right. They should've turned down the commentator or turned up the track volume a bit.

Good point, on TV the cars can appear to be as loud as the broadcaster wants them to be. But probably they still have odl equipment, designed to dealw ith the high input levels the old engines gave, and have trouble picking up the lower frequencies of the turbo engines without applying a bunch of gain and distortion.

On site, it should be pretty nice being able to understand the announcer during the race, so you've got more of an idea of what's going on.

Maybe next year the FIA will make air sirens on the front wing edges obligatory, so that down the straights the cars sound like WW2 dive bombers. If noise and volume is all that the currently oh so vocal traditionalists want...
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Also more power. If they can run more fuel, that means they can run more air, and the car can make more power. Like NASCAR's air restrictor plates, the fuel flow limit is a way to cap power output over a given amount of time. Otherwise a team that's behind could crank the boost and run more power.

If you crank the boost and make more power, you probably won't have enough fuel to finish the race. Or not enough left to satisfy the regulations.

Of course, with the tendency of the lead car to run away in the clean air, you might be able to boost your way by, then conserve enough fuel while in the lead to be okay.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Good point, on TV the cars can appear to be as loud as the broadcaster wants them to be. But probably they still have odl equipment, designed to dealw ith the high input levels the old engines gave, and have trouble picking up the lower frequencies of the turbo engines without applying a bunch of gain and distortion.

On site, it should be pretty nice being able to understand the announcer during the race, so you've got more of an idea of what's going on.

Maybe next year the FIA will make air sirens on the front wing edges obligatory, so that down the straights the cars sound like WW2 dive bombers. If noise and volume is all that the currently oh so vocal traditionalists want...

They are still noisy, but the noise sounds bad. Particularly the Mercedes.

My Hemi is noisy too, but for some reason I like to make it make noise...
 

Bardock

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
346
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haha, well I was never much of a Coultard fan but yea, F1 is supposed to be the best and fastest machines and drivers in the world.

I will watch anyway. I missed Australia because I don't have speed channel.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,544
923
126
haha, well I was never much of a Coultard fan but yea, F1 is supposed to be the best and fastest machines and drivers in the world.

I will watch anyway. I missed Australia because I don't have speed channel.

It isn't broadcast on Speed Channel anymore (does that channel still exist???). It is on NBCSN, has been since the start of the 2013 season. They brought David Hobbs, Steve Matchett and Will Buxton over from Speed and put Leigh Diffey in for Bob Varsha.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,027
0
76
haha, well I was never much of a Coultard fan but yea, F1 is supposed to be the best and fastest machines and drivers in the world.

I will watch anyway. I missed Australia because I don't have speed channel.

Arguably Formula One is still about the best drivers and cars in the world, but now the big focus is on efficiency - technical efficiency, fuel efficiency, driver efficiency, etc, because everyone knows how to make a car go fast. The real challenge is making a car go fast with all these limitations in place.
 

Bardock

Senior member
Mar 12, 2014
346
39
91
Damn I miss David Hobbs. The copy I got last night is from "One Live" which is british tv.

I haven't watched it yet but not the same without Hobbs talking about someone "Done blowed up" or needs to "Push It!".

I love his commentary. And I understand the efficiency part it's just not my style. But in the early 90's when they went to treaded tires I thought that was the end of F1 and they still got faster.

And now the slicks are back. So I am hoping they will keep progressing. Also very excited about the possibility of an east coast American Grand Prix. I heard a rumor about New Jersey.
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
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f1, and any multiple-make series, has always been all about efficiency - getting the very most from the limits set by the formula, whether it's aero, power, chassis... anything and everything. fuel efficiency and adjustable power output are not new concepts in f1, only the means are.
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
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Teams and FIA knew beforehand of fuel sensor issues

Boullier confirms that teams were alerted of this and that McLaren needed to be careful with the fuel flow.

“But it’s true that at the end we have been fully compliant during the race, and the whole weekend actually, like most other teams,” he added.

Contrary to McLaren and other teams that adapted their engine mappings following an FIA alert, Red Bull Racing chose to ignore the warning, resulting in the disqualification of Daniel Ricciardo at the Australian Grand Prix. Red Bull lodged protest against this decision. A result if this protest is expected in the next month.
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
Also more power. If they can run more fuel, that means they can run more air, and the car can make more power. Like NASCAR's air restrictor plates, the fuel flow limit is a way to cap power output over a given amount of time. Otherwise a team that's behind could crank the boost and run more power.

But if they do that they will run out of fuel. Let them make as much power as they want when they want. They only have so much fuel. Just leave it to them as strategy. They will make the same amount of emissions burning that fuel so let them burn it as they see fit.
 

tweakmonkey

Senior member
Mar 11, 2013
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But if they do that they will run out of fuel. Let them make as much power as they want when they want. They only have so much fuel. Just leave it to them as strategy. They will make the same amount of emissions burning that fuel so let them burn it as they see fit.

I am guessing they do it this way so the teams can't switch from 700 HP to 1200 HP (etc.) on the fly and pass someone, then go back to low fuel use mode in a better track position. Also it limits power during qualifying.
 
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Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,437
1,659
136
i like the way the cars sound. there's more variation and details now instead of just hairdryers, and being able to hear other things adds atmosphere.
It's like the old beer adage more filling versus better taste.

I, besides not being numbingly loud, like the new engines just sound much much more active. And with so many sounds you could probably be able to identify why the engine is acting up. Instead of saying well that doesn't sound right 10 seconds before it gives up the ghost like in the V10 days.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,544
923
126
I am guessing they do it this way so the teams can't switch from 700 HP to 1200 HP (etc.) on the fly and pass someone, then go back to low fuel use mode in a better track position. Also it limits power during qualifying.

I suspect that's why Daniel Ricciardo had so much more pace than his teammate did. You have to wonder if they (Red Bull) did it just for the press coverage to keep their sponsors happy and it didn't hurt having a rookie and native Australian finish on the podium either.

<--Ever skeptical. :sneaky:
 
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Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,027
0
76
Can someone ELI5 why one car in a team (e.g. Mercedes, Red Bull) will be so lacking in power, but the other one will be running at a competitive pace? Is it a technical difference in terms of tuning and setup, or does one have a random software issue?

Awesome qualifying session! Great result for Riccardo and Hamilton. I love Vettel's result too.

It's a tragedy. It helps nobody that Vettel is not competitive, and it would be a more exciting season IMO if he were properly competitive.
 
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