The 2014 Formula1 Thread!

[redgtxdi]

Well, if you've never experienced turbo issues first hand before, then I can't expect you'll understand. Turbos turn at a high rate of speed and are quite susceptible to bearing failures because of that. It's in their nature. You don't have to be a "tuner-dude" to have a turbo prob.

http://www.crturbos.co.uk/files/2813/4157/4016/75-78_top_ten_turbo_june.pdf

More oil lines, more heat, more moving parts, sensors, etc. Again, this HP & MPG are NOT free. This isn't panic, it's reality! Eco boost is very young & while I'm sure Ford thinks they have a winner on their hands.......just give it a few years to see how long-term maintenance works out.

Same goes for GDI. Direct Injection is more moving parts, including compressor, piston, cylinder, lines, sensors to monitor all of the above, etc. High pressure directly injected into the cylinder RIGHT next to a spark plug fighting to stay ignited is NOT free HP or MPG.

I have a little background in the arena.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Turbos are not my cup of tea either, but if the power plant is designed to produce the maximum USABLE energy from a given quantity of fuel having a turbo reclaim waste heat makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to see just what the net difference in overall efficiency is when a turbo is used to drive a generator but it can hardly be expected to lower the overall efficiency.

For the cars you and I drive on the road this turbo/generator concept is only valid in hybrid vehicles and would be most effective in a second generation hybrid that does away with the conventional drive train and instead has electric motors at each wheel so that ALL drive power/torque comes from electric motors.

The conventional hybrid still uses a more-or-less direct drive between the transmission and the wheels so the engine has to change rpm and power as needed to accelerate and maintain speed and that's not the best design for maximum efficiency. A next gen hybrid that eliminates the direct drive hardware and instead uses the battery to deliver power to the motors so that the engine can be run at a single rpm where it's most efficient. In an application like that a turbo in the exhaust could increase the efficiency by a goodly amount since the engine will always be operating a max efficient power.

Still, for F1 the effect this has on engine sound is a problem and they will need to find some solution that the fans like. I don't see this happening this year or next...


Brian

 

[redgtxdi]

I definitely agree that turbos are an efficient technology and I admire the way turbos can recycle energy to create more power. I'm just not so certain they are for the masses long-term. That 20 year old Toyota Corolla in the drive running a 1.6L sewing machine motor has gone 400,000 miles because the technology allows for it.


As for the noise in F1........I have an idea which you can already hear just a bit already. While it's certainly not as impressive as a screaming small-stroke F1 V-8, they could manipulate the impeller fins to make quite a whine if they wanted to induce the "rice-tuner" effect. Exacerbate that PLUS the pop-off sounds of waste gates opening & closing & you could have a decent-sounding engine note that would then be up to the audio experts to pick up on mics & transmit to the living room of every viewer watching.

Not an total answer, but certainly a thought!

 

[The Boston Dangler]

fans not liking the new sound, or claiming to not like it, are the product of influential people in the sport and the press banging on that drum. at least half of them have an agenda. bernie and his supporters are complaining about the sound in order to de-value f1 and buy it out cheaply, and fans are licking it up.

the v8's sound was overrated and homogeneous - they all sounded identical. i liked hearing the variety of trick exhausts and the rumble of the safety car. now you can hear different motors, different parts of the cars and the crowd.

 

[redgtxdi]

fans not liking the new sound, or claiming to not like it, are the product of influential people in the sport and the press banging on that drum. at least half of them have an agenda.

Agenda or not, it is a reality!!! I said it in 2012 when they were talking V-6. (Hell, they were talking about going V-4! Thank God that didn't happen!!!). I knew the scream would be gone & it would be like NHRA giving up Top Fuel class cars. No NITROMETHANE = NO DEAL!!! There's already a top-alcohol class, fans want to hear (and feel) the roar of Nitro!!!

The sound is a VERY real problem that F1/Speed/Fox will have to address & I'm sure they will, it'll just take a while. Racing won't always be as good as it was this weekend!

 

[thedarkwolf]

Turbos have been around for a little while and ever since water cooling them became the norm in the 80s they haven't really been a problem. I'm not saying they never die and they can be expensive when they do but they don't explode every 50k miles. The one in my car is up to 224k miles so far and even the one in my old 89 dodge caravan was fine at a 150k when I swapped in a bigger junkyard turbo for $50.

 

[_Rick_]

Living in France, I can tell you that turbos are not a reliability issue.
The number of dilapidated turbo Diesel's running in this country is insane.
While occasionally a turbo might go, I'm not convinced it is the key reason people get rid of a car.
A transmission is usually equally as expensive to replace, and often fails earlier. And by then, usually rust becomes an issue, as the cars get dinged up, suspensions fail, etc. Which people buying 15 year old cars generally don't consider fixable.

As for F1:
Getting some experience with turbo-generators is important. This technology is way too convenient not to end up in passenger vehicles, and while it's a shame that Audi doesn't implement it for their 2k14 R18 e-tron, I'm sure we will see more of that.
It reduces turbo lag, both by giving electric torque on the initial pedal push, and by spinning up the turbo using electric power, reducing the wait time, then harvests energy while running at high power, and essentially reduces the need to a blow-off valve, as you can directly control the speed of the turbine with the generator.

Of course, complexity isn't free, but there's a point to be made in gaining experience with a technology, so that it can be reliably implemented.

An issue that might be more interesting, that's similarly being discussed is the new-found harshness of some of the steward's decision. Ricciardo's ten-place grid penalty, for example.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Yes, using the turbo generator as a motor to spool up the turbo faster or, more likely, prevent it from spooling down, will eliminate turbo lag completely. And, in addition, by harvesting the surplus energy you eliminate the waste of waste-gates/blow-offs.

I'm not real clear on the actual configuration F1 is using for turbos -- do they have one or more turbos to provide increased breathing and separate turbo(s) for energy reclamation? Or is the same turbo(s) used to force more air into the cylinders AND reclaim energy? The second option makes more sense to me but I don't know if the rules are written this way. If so I could see two turbos, one for each bank, and in each there would be: the turbo impeller, the compressor impeller, and a motor/generator.

With such a config the ECU could instruct the motor/generator to maintain turbo compressor pressure during braking and partial throttle to eliminate turbo lag. And, as the engine operates at full throttle the ECU could command the motor/generator to reclaim excess energy to maintain max pressure without blowoffs.


Brian

 

[The Boston Dangler]

I'm not real clear on the actual configuration F1 is using for turbos -- do they have one or more turbos to provide increased breathing and separate turbo(s) for energy reclamation?

they use a single turbo

 

[punjabiplaya]

Looks like Haas is getting his team

http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2...w-formula-one-team-on-friday-says-ecclestone/

 

[boomhower]

Looks like Haas is getting his team

http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2...w-formula-one-team-on-friday-says-ecclestone/

They are taking longer and longer to make the decision it's going to make it very difficult to get a hallway decent car ready for next year.

 

[punjabiplaya]

They are taking longer and longer to make the decision it's going to make it very difficult to get a hallway decent car ready for next year.

Ehhhh, it'll be Dallara made chassis or something with a motor thrown in. I know I'd rather have them have a car properly developed and what not rather than them embarrasing themselves.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Americans don't do well at F1 because we are not in it for the long haul. If we get in and are not in the top 1/3 within 2 years we pull the plug and go home. The Japanese have participated much longer and spent huge money but have only ever had impact with there engines.

F1 is almost entirely an English sport from a constructor standpoint with the only real exception being Ferrari and even they have relied heavily on English engineering talent. If Haas get's in they'll be buying a chassis and engine from someone else and about the only thing they'll have much impact on is running the operation and paying the bills. Even money that most of the engineers and techs that prepare the car and handle pit stop will also be English.

If memory serves me the last real American engineering effort in F1 was Dan Gurney and that was 40 years ago!


Brian

 

[The Boston Dangler]

holy crap!

Ferrari: Stefano Domenicali quits as boss of F1 team

Domenicali, who had been with the Italian team for 23 years in various roles, added: "This decision has been taken with the aim of doing something to shake things up."

officially he jumped, in reality he was pushed. still, it's a shame to lose a well-liked guy. even when he was forced into PR bullshit mode, i thought he tried to be as straight as possible. i'm not sure how a management change is supposed to make the technical improvement they need, but it's the same in any sport: you can't fire the entire team, so the manager pays the price.

i perceive a difference between this and mclaren's sacking of whitmarsh:
domenicali led his team through some good times, while mclaren started circling the drain as soon as ron stepped down. still, the result is the same - no title, no job.

 

[satyajitmenon]

holy crap!

Ferrari: Stefano Domenicali quits as boss of F1 team



officially he jumped, in reality he was pushed. still, it's a shame to lose a well-liked guy. even when he was forced into PR bullshit mode, i thought he tried to be as straight as possible. i'm not sure how a management change is supposed to make the technical improvement they need, but it's the same in any sport: you can't fire the entire team, so the manager pays the price.

i perceive a difference between this and mclaren's sacking of whitmarsh:
domenicali led his team through some good times, while mclaren started circling the drain as soon as ron stepped down. still, the result is the same - no title, no job.

Wow

How is the guy who ran Ferrari North America supposed to be a natural replacement for Team Principal of an F1 team? Even as a stop gap arrangement?

Now, Ross Brawn coming back to Ferrari - that would be very interesting. I'm not sure anyone can turn them around this year into a winning team, especially with how far behind their cars appear to be.

 

[boomhower]

Wow

How is the guy who ran Ferrari North America supposed to be a natural replacement for Team Principal of an F1 team? Even as a stop gap arrangement?

Now, Ross Brawn coming back to Ferrari - that would be very interesting. I'm not sure anyone can turn them around this year into a winning team, especially with how far behind their cars appear to be.

Pretty much what I was thinking. They couldn't find anyone better that a high ranking sales manager with from what I can tell zero F1 credentials? This is going to be a disaster. I can certainly see Alonso leaving at the end of this year.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Pretty much what I was thinking. They couldn't find anyone better that a high ranking sales manager with from what I can tell zero F1 credentials? This is going to be a disaster. I can certainly see Alonso leaving at the end of this year.

Yeah but where would Alonso go that would be any better? Ferrari was a mid pack team for decades until Shuey and Brawn came along and with them gone they're once again a mid pack team.


Brian

 

[JulesMaximus]

Americans don't do well at F1 because we are not in it for the long haul. If we get in and are not in the top 1/3 within 2 years we pull the plug and go home. The Japanese have participated much longer and spent huge money but have only ever had impact with there engines.

F1 is almost entirely an English sport from a constructor standpoint with the only real exception being Ferrari and even they have relied heavily on English engineering talent. If Haas get's in they'll be buying a chassis and engine from someone else and about the only thing they'll have much impact on is running the operation and paying the bills. Even money that most of the engineers and techs that prepare the car and handle pit stop will also be English.

If memory serves me the last real American engineering effort in F1 was Dan Gurney and that was 40 years ago!


Brian

Do F1 teams supply chassis to other teams? I don't think they do.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Do F1 teams supply chassis to other teams? I don't think they do.

they'll buy it from someone that isn't an f1 team. since lola is gone, it'll almost certainly be dallara, whose last f1 customer was HRT. some of any f1 car is spec-issue (computers, safety and regulatory parts), some is bought off the shelf (brakes, power trains, connectors, hoses, etc), some comes specially made from partners (oil, fuel, wheels, support hardware and software, even the chassis) and some is made in-house (seat, steering wheel, aero things, special tools).

even if the vast majority of a car's construction is contracted out, it's still the team's unique design they are fielding.

i think it would be best if f1 re-instated customer cars.

 

[JulesMaximus]

they'll buy it from someone that isn't an f1 team. since lola is gone, it'll almost certainly be dallara, whose last f1 customer was HRT. some of any f1 car is spec-issue (computers, safety and regulatory parts), some is bought off the shelf (brakes, power trains, connectors, hoses, etc), some comes specially made from partners (oil, fuel, wheels, support hardware and software, even the chassis) and some is made in-house (seat, steering wheel, aero things, special tools).

even if the vast majority of a car's construction is contracted out, it's still the team's unique design they are fielding.

i think it would be best if f1 re-instated customer cars.

It would certainly be cheaper.

What I meant was do any of the teams sell their chassis to other competitors? I'm pretty sure they do not... like almost 100% positive.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

nope, that is specifically against the rules.

 

[Brian Stirling]

It would certainly be cheaper.

What I meant was do any of the teams sell their chassis to other competitors? I'm pretty sure they do not... like almost 100% positive.

If they buy from Dalara and they are there only customer then as far as I know no rules will have been broken. Any team that builds their own chassis will farm out some of the work to various suppliers anyway so it would be only a technicality. Ultimately, a first time chassis builder will likely have to rely on others to help them.


Brian

 

[Z15CAM]

My enthusiasm for F1 died the day Senna was killed and the days of the v10 and 12's where over.

It was something Hunt said that struck me about his willingness to put his life on the line to win and if you take that away you kill the sport. Many F1 drivers did that and many of them died back then.

 

[_Rick_]

Well, Hunt was always something of a self-important twat, to be honest

I for one am happy, that F1 has moved beyond being a simple blood sport. It means that you find more intelligent racing drivers, who otherwise would shy away from the risk.
I prefer a sport to be about skill and intelligence, rather than about skill and disregard of obvious danger and value of one's life.

 

[boomhower]

From some more reading I did on the interview today it certainly looks like they will be buying Dallara's to start. But he's said he wants his people there along side learning with the goal of becoming an in house constructor down the road. I'm curious as to the big interest in Ferrari. It's pretty darn clear who has the best power unit and with them locked down I don't see that changing anytime soon with the possible exception of Honda, unless they are going to open it back up this off season to upgrades.

Yeah but where would Alonso go that would be any better? Ferrari was a mid pack team for decades until Shuey and Brawn came along and with them gone they're once again a mid pack team.


Brian

McLaren would be the only possibility I can think of. Currently they are fairly comparable but depending on how the season unfolds it could go either way. They would dump on of their drivers if Alonso came knocking.