The abortion debate and 'life begins at conception'

[Moonbeam]

Which is why my argument in the OP is asking the pro-lifer why they think that humans deserve rights that another lifeforms on this planet don't. One's opinion on the topic (and the prevailing view in society) should have a logical base that scales well throughout the stages of human life.



This is a really long way to say "nuh-uh". While I'm absolutely certain that some people won't bother to honestly engage my counter-argument, that I won't successfully cause every (many... some?) pro-lifer to reconsider their opinion with my argument, it's not helpful to just say "some people won't be swayed" or "this doesn't phase me". I wanted constructive feedback on the quality of the argument. I'm not sure why you're defending Greenman either, just like Jubilex he missed the point entirely.

Except that I don't think he missed the point. I was just saying that no argument can persuade anybody who thinks that human life is sacred and that a unique human being exists at the moment that intentionally killing it as anything but murder.

If you want an argument that persuades people that murder of an unborn human fetus isn't murder you will need one that justifies such a murder. I would suggest that half of the population purely by chance is female and that because conception is the result of sperm fertilizing a ovum with or without conscious intent, half of the population can become pregnant without actual intent. But because the human animal was able to compete and get to the top of the food chain as a result of brain power it is inevitable that brain power would be applied to overcoming this fact of our nature. The Jews simply decided that the soul does not exist in a fetus until sometime after birth allowing for both abortion and the horrible psychological pain at the thought of losing an unborn soul in utero through accidental death.

Alternately, you can view the fact that the right of women to decide who will be used by their bodies as an incubator is absolute and the right to life is also absolute, when two absolutes clash it is up to intelligent people to form their own opinions as to which absolute takes precidence in their individual case.

In short, and in my opinion, I have nothing to say about abortion because I am not a female. It is purely a woman's issue and should never be a decision only so called religious people of any gender get to make.

I could only tell you how I react to your argument. Maybe some would find it appealing, but I can't make myself believe that. Sorry if that is discouraging. It wasn't meant to be personal.

 

[Moonbeam]

Logically speaking, "all human life has a right to exist" doesn't necessarily mean "all human life has equal value".

I don't know why I'm so compelled to play devil's advocate here.

I don't know either but you have always struck me as being pathologically honest.

 

[Moonbeam]

Right, but we aren't talking about equal value. If both embryos and babies were human life and a baby was just a 'more valuable' form of human life then logically there would be a point where preserving a sufficient number of embryos would be the equivalent of a single baby. The thing is we know there is no number - none - where that is the case. This indicates we view embryos as a categorically different thing.

Pretty hard to supply large numbers of cases where this has been tested. Personally, I have never devoted a single second to such an evaluation.

 

[UNCjigga]

As far as the state should be concerned, life begins when live birth is recorded at the hospital for your birth certificate, and your social security number is issued. Anything that happens before live birth is in the mother’s domain.

 

[biostud]

fify. if people were really pro rights/autonomy both this and the recent gun bill would be negatives. what is obvious is that the government has gone too far on many fronts, but loves to keep us fighting about this crap while they keep making all of us more dependent and consolidating power and wealth at the top. anything for those ends, and keeping us throwing mud at each other keeps us from realizing what we are loosing.

i'm 100% pro choice. in fact, 100% pro autonomy and rights.

My point was that for many pro lifers it is ok to take the life of another human, as long as it is done with a assault rifle. So the human life is apperently not that "holy" if it interferes with the 2nd amendment.

 

[HomerJS]

My point was that for many pro lifers it is ok to take the life of another human, as long as it is done with a assault rifle. So the human life is apperently not that "holy" if it interferes with the 2nd amendment.

Republicans are full of shit like this.

They won't let a 13 year old girl adopt a baby yet if she is raped and becomes pregnant, they will force her to give birth

 

[Linux23]

Not sure why I read Life begins at constipation.

 

[fskimospy]

Pretty hard to supply large numbers of cases where this has been tested. Personally, I have never devoted a single second to such an evaluation.

Well you definitely still r more time to writing this post than it takes to evaluate this situation as everyone knows the answer is you choose the real baby.

 

[VRAMdemon]

If life begins at conception, then that's when the child support should start. And SSN should be issued at this time for tax deduction purposes. And Conceived citizenship. Count the citizen fetuses on the census at conception also. If it has a heartbeat it must be a citizen. And the fetus should get paid when the pregnant person is at work. All sex with a pregnant woman should result in sex with a minor/Indecent exposure to a minor. If you fly while pregnant the fetus should get frequent flyer miles Don't forget that if the mother ends up in prison, then you have a clear case of wrongful imprisonment on behalf of the fetus. Cue the lawyers

Because people are only really people if you can collect money for them, get them federal benefits or insure them. Don't like it? The fetus is free to leave whenever it wishes or drive in the carpool lane

 

[kt]

Cake batter. Not a cake

So basically, pro-life conservatives see a woman as nothing more than an oven that they put their cake batter in and 9 months later they have a cake? No wonder they keep insisting that women belong in the kitchen.

 

[abj13]

I think you have mentally substituted science for god in that argument. Science is an observation and understanding of things, it's not something that cares. Science shows you stuff goes wrong, in fact it guarantees death - we all die, some younger then others. It is simply scientific fact that a human with it's full dna exists from conception. The fact that it's not fully grown yet and might not make it to a good age for a human does not stop it being human.

Yes, any medical journal given the picture of a human embro such as I guess the one above is would label it a human embro because it's a human in it's embrotic state. Importantly it's not something that might turn into any human, it will turn into the particular human that DNA chain unique to that embro has. All it takes is the right enviroment to grow in just the same as required by the baby in the other picture which would die without support.

So to be clear, you think a molar pregnancy is a human being? For a response that contains about 100 words, you sure seem want avoid addressing the question.

Based on your other post, are identical twins one or two human beings? They don't have "DNA chains" that are "unique" to each other. So are they one or two humans beings? What about identical triplets? Three human beings or just one?

Seems to me, with all this talk about what science says, your statements are completely inconsistent with what is scientifically known. Why is that?

 

[Pens1566]

Not sure why I read Life begins at constipation.

Sometimes it feels like giving birth ...

 

[Linux23]

So basically, pro-life conservatives see a woman as nothing more than an oven that they put their cake batter in and 9 months later they have a cake? No wonder they keep insisting that women belong in the kitchen.

Ssssh. Women have a way of shutting down that oven if need be. 😉😳

 

[Linux23]

Sometimes it feels like giving birth ...

I'm guilty of putting out some 7 pounders myself...🫢🥺

 

[ch33zw1z]

So basically, pro-life conservatives see a woman as nothing more than an oven that they put their cake batter in and 9 months later they have a cake? No wonder they keep insisting that women belong in the kitchen.

um, yea, that’s how women were treated thru most of history. MAGA

 

[Gardener]

Women have the inherent right to do what they wish with their bodies. Fetuses have the potential for life, but they aren't alive.

Certain men, those of an authoritarian bent, want control over women. Their wives may tolerate them, but their daughters, or grand-daughters, won't. And the rest of us, "Team Normal", won't. Enjoy your time in the sun, rightwingers, it will be short.

 

[Mai72]

The bible can be interpereted in many ways which makes it problematic. This is why there over 42,000 Christian denominations world wide. It is also why verses like Exodus21 was used in the past as justification for the slave trade. God commands owning slaves and servants. And, we can beat them if they disobey. They can be beat within an inch of their life, because it's in the bible. In regard to abortion there there are no passeges in the bible that say anything about it. There are passages that many Christians allude to and they interperet those passages to mean that abortion is immoral. These are the same people who endorse murdering death row inmates. Even the ones who have been found innocent after they were executed. Opps... I guess God works in mysterious ways. That innocent death row inmate is with god now.

Yea. When we get to heaven we can hang out with Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.

 

[nakedfrog]

The bible can be interpereted in many ways which makes it problematic. This is why there over 42,000 Christian denominations world wide. It is also why verses like Exodus21 was used in the past as justification for the slave trade. God commands owning slaves and servants. And, we can beat them if they disobey they can be beat within an inch of their life, because it's in the bible. In regard to abortion there there are no passeges in the bible that say anything about it. There are passages that many Christians allude to and they interperet those passages to mean that abortion is immoral. These are the same people who endorse murdering death row inmates. Even the ones who have been found innocent after they were executed. Opps... I guess God works in mysterious ways. That innocent victim is with god now.

Yeah, the important thing is that legal precedent wasn't harmed.

Oops... guess that one's gone now too.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well you definitely still r more time to writing this post than it takes to evaluate this situation as everyone knows the answer is you choose the real baby.

You seem to be implying by 'everyone knows' that there is something instinctual or inalienable about how a normal person would make such decisions, as if in reality there is nothing about choice that is actually involved. In my opinion, that is the side of an argument I find myself making to you in our occasional disputes and that forms the basis of my definitive certainty.

So I will admit that were I to find myself in a situation where children were at risk my intention would be to save them rather than frozen fetuses, but that decision would be tempered, were there were others saving them, and I was driving a mobile cryogenic van. Not just anybody could save them and people are practical in such matters I think.

 

[zinfamous]

If they found a single cell of a fetus on the planet Mars, NASA would proclaim they found life on Mars. A single living cell is LIFE...

Stop being retarded.

lol! that's fucking insane.

Question for you people with this same type of low-level, anti-science thinking: Are HeLa cells a living human?

 

[JD50]

If they found a single cell of a fetus on the planet Mars, NASA would proclaim they found life on Mars. A single living cell is LIFE...

Stop being retarded.

Better stop jerking off and taking millions of lives then.

 

[fskimospy]

You seem to be implying by 'everyone knows' that there is something instinctual or inalienable about how a normal person would make such decisions, as if in reality there is nothing about choice that is actually involved. In my opinion, that is the side of an argument I find myself making to you in our occasional disputes and that forms the basis of my definitive certainty.

So I will admit that were I to find myself in a situation where children were at risk my intention would be to save them rather than frozen fetuses, but that decision would be tempered, were there were others saving them, and I was driving a mobile cryogenic van. Not just anybody could save them and people are practical in such matters I think.

You’re adding additional conditions to create uncertainty. If given the simple choice 100% of people would save the baby.

 

[Jaskalas]

In short, and in my opinion, I have nothing to say about abortion because I am not a female. It is purely a woman's issue and should never be a decision only so called religious people of any gender get to make.

You are not female.
You are also not other people.
Yet you grant other people the right to life, and act against their murder.
But what happens to others is also none of your business....

The whole "their choice" notion falls short on the subject of murder.
If people want to protect the baby, you're not going to convince them.

 

[Motostu]

My wife's an embryologist. I guess she's going to hell according to some people.

We're keen to see how crazy some states will go with their laws and how it will impact the fertility clinics and those that need assistance to have children.

 

[HomerJS]

Anyone remember the Terry Schivo case? A bunch of white Republicans in the Senate insisted Terry was alive. The husband and his doctors said she was essentially brain dead with no hope of recovering. By law the decision to take her off life support belonged to the husband and he said they discussed it and didn't want extraordinary means to keep her alive.

Republicans made this a public spectacle but eventually the husband won out. When they did the autopsy turned out the husband was 100% right

This is why the pro choice position is the correct position