The achievement gap

[blackllotus]

A racial achievement gap exists. This is not debatable. What is debatable is how to approach the problem, or, more fundamentally, to identify the problem. Since there is no strong evidence to suggest large intelligence differences between races, it is clear that the racial achievement gap is a problem. However what is not clear, is if the gap is actually caused by race.

Schools in poor communities tend to be poor as well, so education is likely to be worse than education in richer schools. Furthermore, while blacks may tend to do worse in school than whites, they also tend to be poorer. I find this explanation for the achievement gap to be much more plausible than the idea that racism is causing the gap. Therefore, I find that while ideas such as affirmative action have some merit, they are unsatisfactory because race is the wrong parameter to focus on. Insead of specifically focusing on bringing minority performance up, we should be focusing on establishing a satisfactory national minimum level of education.

Why? Because an achievement gap is not always bad. As long as all students meet a satisfactory level of performance, there is no problem. In other words, a bad achievement gap is one where there is a gap between poorly performing students and average performing students, not one where there is a gap betwen average students and exceptional students. I worry that by focusing so much on eliminating the achievement gap we may unintentionally limit how well students can perform. For example, are schools motivated to suceed or motivated to not fail? Theres a difference.

Sorry if I have been unclear. Here are some cliffs:
- Racial achievement gap is bad
- Race/Racism unlikely to be major cause of achievement gap
- Stop focusing on specific races in education. Create a national standard and provide aid to struggling schools (ie: do more than just label a school as dysfunctional)
- Eliminating the achievement gap should not be our goal. Minimizing poor performance should be.

I'm wide open on ideas about this issue.

 

[techs]

In fact funding has been a major cause of the achievement gap. For a couple of hundred years in America we funded schools by local property taxes. Rich areas had good schools, poor areas bad schools.
And since poor areas were predominately black thats where the underfunded schools were.
It has changed somewhat recently with some states trying to bridge the gap in funding, but there is a huge backlash from people who don't want their tax money going to any school but their local one.

 

[JD50]

In the state that I live in the inner city schools get more money than most other schools, being almost completely funded by taxpayers from the rest of the state. I don't think the problem with these schools is about money, its about the breakdown of the traditional family and good parenting.

 

[fskimospy]

The problems are a lot deeper then that. My mom is a teacher at an inner city, majority black school. She freely admits that funding is a large problem for them. They don't even have enough for an entire set of books for her classroom... much less ones for the kids to take home. So yes, disparities in funding are a problem.

You know what else she says though? When they do have enough books for the kids... her kids destroy them. A book that would have lasted 10 years at the school I went to lasts 10 months there. The problem is that her kids come from a social and cultural background that does not value education... either by cultural role models, or their own (likely non college educated) parents.

As much as everyone maligns affirmative action, I think it is precisely what is needed (and in larger, more equitably distributed amounts) in order to stop this cycle of ignorance and poverty. If your parents are college educated, regardless of race or social position... you are FAR more likely to be.

Is affirmative action fair? Nope. Is it making the best of a bad situation though? I think it is. It's not about "righting the wrongs of slavery" or any of that stupid crap, it's trying to find a way to shink the underclass that has no hope.

 

[Genx87]

I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have some of the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

They dangle the carrot out the indoctrinated sheeple. One thing I find amusing about people going after walmart and ceo's about their greediness is you never hear about the govt unions and big labor and their greediness to get people into office who will increase their bankrolls via raping the taxpayers.

At least the ceo and walmart went out and created wealth, all big labor in the public sector does is steal it.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

I 'm not saying you are wrong. However, do you have any proof to back this up? Even in New York City the schools get a lot less than schools in the rest of NY State. Is Baltimore so unique compared to other cities that they actually get more?

And to people who say it is the breakdown of the family, etc. I would like to point out that perhaps it is the other way round. That lack of education funding for todays kids parents is contributing to the lack of achievement of todays kids. And it will take time and funding to undue the damage.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

I 'm not saying you are wrong. However, do you have any proof to back this up? Even in New York City the schools get a lot less than schools in the rest of NY State. Is Baltimore so unique compared to other cities that they actually get more?

I posted it in another thread a few weeks ago, I think they were 2nd or 3rd in the state as far as money spent per student. I'd look it up again but I'm about to go in to class, if no one posts it I'll try to find it again tonight when I get home.

edit - I just googled it and didn't really read the article, just grabbed the numbers off the site.

"In FY 2001, per pupil expenses in the region averaged $7,447. Highest among the jurisdictions were Baltimore City ($8,551) and Howard County ($8,202). Harford County was the lowest ($6,772). From FY 1990 to FY 2000, per pupil expenses grew by 12.1 percent. By comparison, the statewide average increased by 3.8 percent, while nationwide expenses rose by 13.3 percent."

http://www.baltometro.org/content/view/703/478/

 

[Genx87]

And to people who say it is the breakdown of the family, etc. I would like to point out that perhaps it is the other way round. That lack of education funding for todays kids parents is contributing to the lack of achievement of todays kids. And it will take time and funding to undue the damage.

This is backwards, you cant legislate or fund a solid family structure. This is a community issue that only blacks can solve. No govt program is going to somehow save the black family.

 

[sandorski]

Social change takes time. If a Social Group(Inner City folk in this case) have had generations of spinning their wheels with a lack of Education, lack of good Job opportunities, high crime, and other negative factors, the negativism becomes ingrained into their psyche. Simply improving 1 factor isn't going to change things overnight, but with patience and persistence the outlook on the social group will gradually change. With that change will come Hope, more stable Families, and Economic Advancement.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

And to people who say it is the breakdown of the family, etc. I would like to point out that perhaps it is the other way round. That lack of education funding for todays kids parents is contributing to the lack of achievement of todays kids. And it will take time and funding to undue the damage.

This is backwards, you cant legislate or fund a solid family structure. This is a community issue that only blacks can solve. No govt program is going to somehow save the black family.

Possibly, but that isn't a valid argument AGAINST the government programs either...even the best family is going to have problems if schools are underfunded. Really the point is that money or government programs ALONE cannot do the job, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role to play. As was pointed out, in Maryland Baltimore City has the highest funding, but Howard County has the second highest, and they are widely considered to have some of the best public schools in the state...and I'm guessing their large amounts of money per student have something to do with that.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

I 'm not saying you are wrong. However, do you have any proof to back this up? Even in New York City the schools get a lot less than schools in the rest of NY State. Is Baltimore so unique compared to other cities that they actually get more?

I posted it in another thread a few weeks ago, I think they were 2nd or 3rd in the state as far as money spent per student. I'd look it up again but I'm about to go in to class, if no one posts it I'll try to find it again tonight when I get home.

edit - I just googled it and didn't really read the article, just grabbed the numbers off the site.

"In FY 2001, per pupil expenses in the region averaged $7,447. Highest among the jurisdictions were Baltimore City ($8,551) and Howard County ($8,202). Harford County was the lowest ($6,772). From FY 1990 to FY 2000, per pupil expenses grew by 12.1 percent. By comparison, the statewide average increased by 3.8 percent, while nationwide expenses rose by 13.3 percent."

http://www.baltometro.org/content/view/703/478/

This is also true of the schools in Washington, DC. They have funding levels very close to or higher than those of the surrounding suburbs but they still have a huge gap in achievement. It's not about the money, it's about the way the schools are run.

Look at the comparison graph on this web page:
http://www.parentsunited4dc.org/mrfunding_report_ii.htm

Even though Fairfax spends about the same as DC, their schools are much better.

 

[DaWhim]

anything funded by the government sucks (inefficient). voucher for private school is better for poor kids FTW.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: DaWhim
anything funded by the government sucks (inefficient). voucher for private school is better for poor kids FTW.

The voucher system is silly, at least from the perspective of helping poor kids...that's just cover for upper-middle class folks who are sending their kids to private school anyways, but think the government should help them out. The problem is that vouchers will not even come close to paying for the vast majority of private schools, so we'll have scrapped the public school system without leaving ANYTHING in its place.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87

And to people who say it is the breakdown of the family, etc. I would like to point out that perhaps it is the other way round. That lack of education funding for todays kids parents is contributing to the lack of achievement of todays kids. And it will take time and funding to undue the damage.

This is backwards, you cant legislate or fund a solid family structure. This is a community issue that only blacks can solve. No govt program is going to somehow save the black family.

Possibly, but that isn't a valid argument AGAINST the government programs either...even the best family is going to have problems if schools are underfunded. Really the point is that money or government programs ALONE cannot do the job, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role to play. As was pointed out, in Maryland Baltimore City has the highest funding, but Howard County has the second highest, and they are widely considered to have some of the best public schools in the state...and I'm guessing their large amounts of money per student have something to do with that.

It may and it may not, there is a clear disconnect between funding and quality of education in this country.

 

[fskimospy]

Man, it's not the administration... it's not the funding (for the most part). It's the KIDS. Vouchers won't solve it. (honestly, vouchers solve nothing.. period. what a horrible idea)You need to affect cultural change.

 

[blackllotus]

Link

Community influences do play a significant role in the education gap, however there are plenty of school related factors as well that we need to fix. Interesting case study on Forced Busing vs. Free Choice

Furthermore, Poverty does play a role in student performance.

Resource disparities handicap schools. Low-minority schools tend to be much better funded and have all-around stronger resources than do high-minority schools. The same relationship holds true for schools in low-poverty versus high-poverty areas. There is persuasive evidence that this factor contributes to the achievement gap. For example, data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress show the achievement gap between low-poverty and high-poverty schools increased throughout the 1990s.

 

[newmachineoverlord]

Disparities of funding are a big piece, and sending more money to districts that are underfunded will help, and is necessary for any real progress. In the modern world blatant racial discrimination has shifted to blatant economic discrimination. Disparate funding of schools is not the only problem, as children from impoverished families will still have disadvantages beyond those reflected in school funding. Poverty often comes with malnutrition, lack of parental involvement (both parents may have multiple jobs), lack of electricity, running water, heat, beds, and lack of effective shelter. Impoverished parents may also have lower quality of prenatal care and prenatal nutrition, and might be more likely to exhibit violence towards the children. Each of these problems will have a negative impact on performance in school. Don't pretend that just because the school has money, that poverty won't affect the children who attend it. Simply pointing to a well funded school that does poorly proves nothing. Also, be sure to exclude money spent on sports from your accounting of school spending per student.

Part of the problem is also the drug war. Testing students as a prerequisite for involvement in actvities leads to reduced involvement in approved activities, and greater overall drug use as people abandon school sponsored activities in favor of doing drugs. Discriminatory prosecution also makes it far more likely that a poor kid's parents are in jail than a rich kid's parents if both sets of parents committed the same offense. I know of someone whose parents wanted her locked up because they were mad at her, and her appointed lawyer didn't do or say a damned thing during the hearing.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: DaWhim
anything funded by the government sucks (inefficient). voucher for private school is better for poor kids FTW.

The voucher system is silly, at least from the perspective of helping poor kids...that's just cover for upper-middle class folks who are sending their kids to private school anyways, but think the government should help them out. The problem is that vouchers will not even come close to paying for the vast majority of private schools, so we'll have scrapped the public school system without leaving ANYTHING in its place.

Not neceassarily, most voucher programs dont come close to reimbursing the cost of a child. So while a parent may get a 3000 tuition voucher the district is still recieving the difference in total funding without having to actually fund that child.

For an example the Minneapolis district which I believe is sitting at a bloated 11,600 per pupil. The minneapolis district still recieves the difference of 8,600 and doesnt even have to put the kid through school.

The voucher program is more about creating a sense of competition among the schools as it allows parents to put their children into quality education.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think sometimes we look at the gap's instead of looking at the progress.
The amount of Blacks % wise going into college is nearly as high as whites now. The latest numbers I heard was 41% of blacks are going onto higher education while 47% of whites are. Asians and Whites are identical for the most part on nearly everything.

I think the biggest problem isnt the amount of funding like the teacher's unions would tell you. It is the home life, and this is where blacks fall behind in a big way compared to whites.

btw in Minnesota the inner city predominately black districts have the highest per capita spending, yet some of the worst dropout rates. Money isnt the answer.

Agreed, Baltimore City schools get some of the most money in the state compared to other schools, yet they have the worst performance. Common sense would tell you that money is not the answer.

I find it interesting that Democrats have been running that city for years and failing miserably, yet they keep getting voted into office. I'm not saying Republicans could do any better, just thought that it was interesting.

I 'm not saying you are wrong. However, do you have any proof to back this up? Even in New York City the schools get a lot less than schools in the rest of NY State. Is Baltimore so unique compared to other cities that they actually get more?

I posted it in another thread a few weeks ago, I think they were 2nd or 3rd in the state as far as money spent per student. I'd look it up again but I'm about to go in to class, if no one posts it I'll try to find it again tonight when I get home.

edit - I just googled it and didn't really read the article, just grabbed the numbers off the site.

"In FY 2001, per pupil expenses in the region averaged $7,447. Highest among the jurisdictions were Baltimore City ($8,551) and Howard County ($8,202). Harford County was the lowest ($6,772). From FY 1990 to FY 2000, per pupil expenses grew by 12.1 percent. By comparison, the statewide average increased by 3.8 percent, while nationwide expenses rose by 13.3 percent."

http://www.baltometro.org/content/view/703/478/

Actually that sort of proves my point. How much more expensive are teachers, land, services in Baltimore than in the rural areas?
For intstance in New York City things like rent and average house prices are twice what they are in say, Schoharie county upstate. Yet New York doesn't spend twice as much on each student.
Plus, large cities have greater costs in education. Large cities have a larger proportion of disabled kids, foreign language speaking kids, kids with special needs. So they would need even more than rural schools just to stay even. Then you have to add in the increased costs of big cities over rural areas.
In fact in New York state their is a big lawsuit by NY City against the state since the NY state constitution guarantees a competent education. And despite NY spending far more than rural NY state the state supreme Court has already decided NY doesn't get enough and the only issue at this point is how much more the state has to give NY just to provide a minimum level of education and not even one equal to the rural and suburbs of NY state.

 

[piasabird]

Study harder.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Study harder.

Ignorance is bliss

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: DaWhim
anything funded by the government sucks (inefficient). voucher for private school is better for poor kids FTW.

The voucher system is silly, at least from the perspective of helping poor kids...that's just cover for upper-middle class folks who are sending their kids to private school anyways, but think the government should help them out. The problem is that vouchers will not even come close to paying for the vast majority of private schools, so we'll have scrapped the public school system without leaving ANYTHING in its place.

Yes we all know the right the thing to do is to keep poor minorites trapped in bad schools. Vouchers would help those that need it the most.

And as far as vouchers destroying the public school system, that is in false. The few places that do have vouchers, the public schools are still very much intact and have improved because of the competition with private schools. This is in fact the truth. Most public schools are good, but there are still too many bads one that just need to be shut down/massively reformed.

 

[fskimospy]

I really think people here are misunderestimating the problem. It's not screwed up schools. (at least not mostly) Look at the demographics of the areas with poorly performing schools. It's not luck that has placed all the crappy schools in the middle of poor and urban areas. We know that funding for the public schools isn't the main problem either (as evidenced by people's previous posts).

So what is the problem? The culture of the students. That is what we should be focusing on changing. Vouchers aren't going to solve that problem. More money for the public schools isn't going to solve that problem. Changing out school administrations won't either. Does anyone else have ideas for what you would need to do in order to make these kids value education? I said greater affirmative action... by no means a perfect solution, but it's the best one I've got.