The achievement gap

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
We know that funding for the public schools isn't the main problem either (as evidenced by people's previous posts).

From a study I quoted in a previous post.

Low-minority schools tend to be much better funded and have all-around stronger resources than do high-minority schools. The same relationship holds true for schools in low-poverty versus high-poverty areas. There is persuasive evidence that this factor contributes to the achievement gap. For example, data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress show the achievement gap between low-poverty and high-poverty schools increased throughout the 1990s.

 

[fskimospy]

I understand your point blacklotus... funding is certainly a problem. I really don't believe it is the primary factor though.

I'll look some more things up later, but for now all I can offer you is the anecdotal evidence of my mom's experience. While she desperately wishes for more money for her school, she also has said to me that even with all the money in the world, her kids would have terrible terrible problems. Money alone is not the answer.

 

[senseamp]

Segregation is the answer. We need schools for trouble kids, so they don't disrupt class for everyone else. Teachers spend too much time dealing with discipline and drama from a few troublemakers, instead of teaching kids who are there to learn. So those trouble kids need to go to special schools where they will get counseling and education, while the rest of the kids don't have to deal with their disruptions.

 

[Vic]

The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

 

[Nutz]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
The problems are a lot deeper then that. My mom is a teacher at an inner city, majority black school. She freely admits that funding is a large problem for them. They don't even have enough for an entire set of books for her classroom... much less ones for the kids to take home. So yes, disparities in funding are a problem.

You know what else she says though? When they do have enough books for the kids... her kids destroy them. A book that would have lasted 10 years at the school I went to lasts 10 months there. The problem is that her kids come from a social and cultural background that does not value education... either by cultural role models, or their own (likely non college educated) parents.

As much as everyone maligns affirmative action, I think it is precisely what is needed (and in larger, more equitably distributed amounts) in order to stop this cycle of ignorance and poverty. If your parents are college educated, regardless of race or social position... you are FAR more likely to be.

Is affirmative action fair? Nope. Is it making the best of a bad situation though? I think it is. It's not about "righting the wrongs of slavery" or any of that stupid crap, it's trying to find a way to shink the underclass that has no hope.

Affirmative action isn't the answer. Should we give everyone an equal opportunity? Yes. Beyond that its up to the individual to excel and make good for themselves. If some kid has crappy parents then you're talking about something completely different and remedies for such instances are the purview of another thread. When talking about socio-economic structures education is only part of the equation, which is why this thread is doomed to failure. Its only one piece of the puzzle, so to speak.

If you want to talk specifically about education and how it affects one's lifetime income then yes we should give kids in the public school system an even shot at bettering themselves. But beyond that I'm not willing to spend another dime. Anything more and its the fast track socialism.

As has been said a dozen times already, education isn't exactly the root of the problem. The core issue at hand is the values of inner city families and the lessons kids are learning. For the most part its going to be the stereotypical hip-hop image that gets recycled over and over again to the point where it stops being an image and is adopted into reality. And then things digress from there. Its been that way for some time now and doesn't seem to be getting any better. If you can fix that, then you'll be off to a good start at evening things out.

 

[fskimospy]

I disagree nutz. FAR more then any other factor, education can be directly correlated to future income and social status levels. College educated people are far more likely to have college educated kids... and I think that is the best way we have to make headway in increasing the social value of education and success to minorities.

My argument for affirmative action acknowledges that it isn't fair. That doesn't seem particularly relevant here though. The purpose of it is one of social stability, not fairness. (ie. we're trying to prevent the sort of permanent underclass we seem to have developed, because that sort of underclass breeds crime, disease, and social unrest).

Isn't that why we are worried about the achievement gap? I doubt that most people are worried about it because others not making as much money as them makes them sad.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Vic
The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

Essentially, this is the primary issue. As long as black births are ~70% illegitimate, blacks (or any other ethnic group predominated by unstable families) will be on the short end of the achievement gap. Dysfunctional families are a very poor springboard for success. By contrast, my extensive family of first-generation Asian in-laws are all middle or upper class, despite their parents coming to this country barely speaking the language and poor as church mice. But thier parents were married, stable, and very traditional, stressing education above all. Now, their kids have all have college degrees and financial abundance, if not at least stability. Almost all the Asians I know (quite a few) are like that within a generation or two.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Vic
The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

Essentially, this is the primary issue. As long as black births are ~70% illegitimate, blacks (or any other ethnic group predominated by unstable families) will be on the short end of the achievement gap. Dysfunctional families are a very poor springboard for success. By contrast, my extensive family of first-generation Asian in-laws are all middle or upper class, despite their parents coming to this country barely speaking the language and poor as church mice. But thier parents were married, stable, and very traditional, stressing education above all. Now, their kids have all have college degrees and financial abundance, if not at least stability. Almost all the Asians I know (quite a few) are like that within a generation or two.

I would agree that is a major driving force for the problems in the community, but the rest of the country isn't doing that great either, I think on CNN today they state that 4/10 births in 2005 were to single moms.

Welfare is still in need of dire reform in my opinion, I believe that these entitlement programs have done a lot to disrupt the notion of families in the black community. I read an article a year or so ago that stated that prior to these programs that black employment rates and the percentage of children born to two parent households was comparable to whites.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Vic
The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

Essentially, this is the primary issue. As long as black births are ~70% illegitimate, blacks (or any other ethnic group predominated by unstable families) will be on the short end of the achievement gap. Dysfunctional families are a very poor springboard for success. By contrast, my extensive family of first-generation Asian in-laws are all middle or upper class, despite their parents coming to this country barely speaking the language and poor as church mice. But thier parents were married, stable, and very traditional, stressing education above all. Now, their kids have all have college degrees and financial abundance, if not at least stability. Almost all the Asians I know (quite a few) are like that within a generation or two.

I would agree that is a major driving force for the problems in the community, but the rest of the country isn't doing that great either, I think on CNN today they state that 4/10 births in 2005 were to single moms.

Welfare is still in need of dire reform in my opinion, I believe that these entitlement programs have done a lot to disrupt the notion of families in the black community. I read an article a year or so ago that stated that prior to these programs that black employment rates and the percentage of children born to two parent households was comparable to whites.

There was a book put out a couple of years ago by a prominent black researcher that confirms what you just said. I dont remember the name of her or her book. But what it showed was the black family while in a lower income class demographic compared to whites had nearly the same marriage and divorce rates and the family unit was intact for the most part. Unemployment was alos much more in line with whites.

What happened in the mid 1960s was the govt came in and told them none of that mattered anymore, we will take care of you, you are victims. Within a decade the family situation broke down and it has only got worse since.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Vic
The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

Essentially, this is the primary issue. As long as black births are ~70% illegitimate, blacks (or any other ethnic group predominated by unstable families) will be on the short end of the achievement gap. Dysfunctional families are a very poor springboard for success. By contrast, my extensive family of first-generation Asian in-laws are all middle or upper class, despite their parents coming to this country barely speaking the language and poor as church mice. But thier parents were married, stable, and very traditional, stressing education above all. Now, their kids have all have college degrees and financial abundance, if not at least stability. Almost all the Asians I know (quite a few) are like that within a generation or two.

I would agree that is a major driving force for the problems in the community, but the rest of the country isn't doing that great either, I think on CNN today they state that 4/10 births in 2005 were to single moms.

True, and the rest of our society which decides to raise its children in less than ideal homes will likewise have to deal with the consequences. Any ethnic group which turns its back on marriage will have these issues.

Welfare is still in need of dire reform in my opinion, I believe that these entitlement programs have done a lot to disrupt the notion of families in the black community. I read an article a year or so ago that stated that prior to these programs that black employment rates and the percentage of children born to two parent households was comparable to whites.

The cause is much more than welfare, although that didn't help. The sexual revolution did the poor, especially minorities, no favors.

 

[fskimospy]

Your statements about welfare are at best unsubstantiated. If you look at this period since the 60's, yes... illigitimacy for black children did massively increase. (from 23.6% to about 70% now). Unfortunately, illegitimacy for whites increased nearly tenfold (from 3% to over 30%). Since blacks are per capita far more likely to receive benefits from welfare as compared to whites, and considering there are about a zillion other factors that could relate to that rise, I think tying the welfare state to illegitimate families is diningenuous.

This article is an interesting analysis of whether or not welfare programs cause poverty or not. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarepoverty.htm

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Vic
The problem has nothing to do with money, school funding, rich/poor, etc. If it did, the Asians would still be on the bad side of this supposed gap. The problem is a culture that doesn't properly encourage educational achievement.

Essentially, this is the primary issue. As long as black births are ~70% illegitimate, blacks (or any other ethnic group predominated by unstable families) will be on the short end of the achievement gap. Dysfunctional families are a very poor springboard for success. By contrast, my extensive family of first-generation Asian in-laws are all middle or upper class, despite their parents coming to this country barely speaking the language and poor as church mice. But thier parents were married, stable, and very traditional, stressing education above all. Now, their kids have all have college degrees and financial abundance, if not at least stability. Almost all the Asians I know (quite a few) are like that within a generation or two.

Yep. My boss is 2nd generation Asian. His parents came here with absolutely nothing and worked their butts off to put 5 kids through college. All of them became successful.

I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

Well how do you reconcile that with what has occurred over the past 50 years? Certainly something has changed. There has to be more to the story than cultural differences, otherwise the culture has done a complete 180 over this period of time.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

Well how do you reconcile that with what has occurred over the past 50 years? Certainly something has changed. There has to be more to the story than cultural differences, otherwise the culture has done a complete 180 over this period of time.

What complete 180? You realize that, given the widespread prosperity in this nation, it is absolutely ridiculous to argue that things are worse now than they were 50 years ago, right? I know people like to look back on the "good ol' days" with rose-colored glasses, but it ain't so.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

Well how do you reconcile that with what has occurred over the past 50 years? Certainly something has changed. There has to be more to the story than cultural differences, otherwise the culture has done a complete 180 over this period of time.

What complete 180? You realize that, given the widespread prosperity in this nation, it is absolutely ridiculous to argue that things are worse now than they were 50 years ago, right? I know people like to look back on the "good ol' days" with rose-colored glasses, but it ain't so.

As in the increase in births to single mothers, increases in unemployment rates. Some of these are trends in our society as a whole, but they are exponentially worse in the black community.

You are making the argument that it's strictly a cultural difference, well 50 years ago these numbers were in line with whites but have declined steadily since then, so what about the culture changed between then and now? What outside forces have encouraged these changes?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

Well how do you reconcile that with what has occurred over the past 50 years? Certainly something has changed. There has to be more to the story than cultural differences, otherwise the culture has done a complete 180 over this period of time.

What complete 180? You realize that, given the widespread prosperity in this nation, it is absolutely ridiculous to argue that things are worse now than they were 50 years ago, right? I know people like to look back on the "good ol' days" with rose-colored glasses, but it ain't so.

As in the increase in births to single mothers, increases in unemployment rates. Some of these are trends in our society as a whole, but they are exponentially worse in the black community.

You are making the argument that it's strictly a cultural difference, well 50 years ago these numbers were in line with whites but have declined steadily since then, so what about the culture changed between then and now? What outside forces have encouraged these changes?

No outside forces, simply the relaxation of societal mores, along with increased enforcement of the drug prohibition that has put a significant percentage of the available black fathers in prison for extended terms.
I would like to see numbers regarding this increase in unemployment rates, as I find that unlikely. 50 years ago was the immediate post-war era, and this country was in a rather severe recession. In addition, discrimination was still legal at that time. So, I think you're making that one up.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: JD50
In the state that I live in the inner city schools get more money than most other schools, being almost completely funded by taxpayers from the rest of the state. I don't think the problem with these schools is about money, its about the breakdown of the traditional family and good parenting.

What are you going to do about it, legislate traditional family values ?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: JD50
In the state that I live in the inner city schools get more money than most other schools, being almost completely funded by taxpayers from the rest of the state. I don't think the problem with these schools is about money, its about the breakdown of the traditional family and good parenting.

What are you going to do about it, legislate traditional family values ?

Obviously, that should not be done. What would be better would be if we stopped rewarding these negative behaviors.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not going to, however, blame marriage, sexual revolution, lack of traditional values, welfare, or any of that. It is simply the difference between a culture that emphasizes acheivement and one that discourages it.

Well how do you reconcile that with what has occurred over the past 50 years? Certainly something has changed. There has to be more to the story than cultural differences, otherwise the culture has done a complete 180 over this period of time.

What complete 180? You realize that, given the widespread prosperity in this nation, it is absolutely ridiculous to argue that things are worse now than they were 50 years ago, right? I know people like to look back on the "good ol' days" with rose-colored glasses, but it ain't so.

As in the increase in births to single mothers, increases in unemployment rates. Some of these are trends in our society as a whole, but they are exponentially worse in the black community.

You are making the argument that it's strictly a cultural difference, well 50 years ago these numbers were in line with whites but have declined steadily since then, so what about the culture changed between then and now? What outside forces have encouraged these changes?

No outside forces, simply the relaxation of societal mores, along with increased enforcement of the drug prohibition that has put a significant percentage of the available black fathers in prison for extended terms.
I would like to see numbers regarding this increase in unemployment rates, as I find that unlikely. 50 years ago was the immediate post-war era, and this country was in a rather severe recession. In addition, discrimination was still legal at that time. So, I think you're making that one up.

Here's some stats on unemployment, divorce rates, etc.

Here's a link for precisely what we are talking about

Taken from the second link:

"In 1954, the Black male E/P ratio was only two percentage points below that of Whites and remained in the 2 to 4 percentage point range through the remainder of the 1950s. In the labor market boom years of the mid to late 1960s, the E/P rate of young Black male adults achieved parity with that of Whites.5 By the late 1970s, however, very large gaps had opened up, with the Black E/P ratio falling 17 to 18 percentage points below that of Whites."

 

[Vic]

So what exactly is it that you're saying? That discrimination has increased since the passage of anti-discrimination laws? :roll:

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Vic
So what exactly is it that you're saying? That discrimination has increased since the passage of anti-discrimination laws? :roll:

No, not at all. I just don't believe it's inherent in the black culture not to succeed, or that the current trends are because there is less emphasis to succeed; if that were the case then the historical figures would be more in line with what is happening now, there are other factors.

I also wanted to defend myself since you were claiming I was making it up, :Q

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Vic
So what exactly is it that you're saying? That discrimination has increased since the passage of anti-discrimination laws? :roll:

No, not at all. I just don't believe it's inherent in the black culture not to succeed, or that the current trends are because there is less emphasis to succeed; if that were the case then the historical figures would be more in line with what is happening now, there are other factors.

I also wanted to defend myself since you were claiming I was making it up, :Q

Well, I think the misunderstanding in this regard is that there is no single black culture anymore than there is a single white culture.

 

[fskimospy]

You are making the argument that it's strictly a cultural difference, well 50 years ago these numbers were in line with whites but have declined steadily since then, so what about the culture changed between then and now? What outside forces have encouraged these changes?

That's the thing though, they weren't ever in line with whites. 50 years ago black babies were approximately 23% illegitimate vs. white babies being 3%. Now it is 70% black and 30% white. While the gap has increased percentage wise, the number of illegitimate black babies has about tripled, while the number of illegitimate white babies has increased tenfold.