The AMD Mantle Thread

[Grooveriding]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place. Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

January 30th / 2014 :

Starswarm Mantle Benchmark released on Steam : http://store.steampowered.com/app/267130/

Mantle is released in Battlefield 4 : http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/

Mantle renderer now available in Battlefield 4

The new game update for Battlefield 4 brings the Mantle renderer that DICE has developed in conjunction with AMD. With this first release of Mantle, you can expect performance increases in the game if you have the hardware to support it. In this blog post, the Technical Director for Frostbite details this exciting new step for the Battlefield series.


Hi,
My name is Johan Andersson and I’m one of the Technical Directors in the Frostbite team and I have something very exciting to share with all Battlefield players: the latest Battlefield 4 update on PC includes the long-awaited new renderer in Frostbite that is using AMD’s Mantle.
Mantle is a new low-level graphics API that we’ve been working very closely with AMD on over the last 2 years and it is a major change & improvement to how we are able to program & use modern GPUs in order to get the most out of them.


Battlefield 4 on PC is already quite heavily optimized using DirectX 11 and DirectX 11.1, but with Mantle we are able to go even further: we’ve significantly reduced CPU cost in our rendering, efficiently parallelized it over multiple CPU cores and reduced overhead in many areas.
The biggest performance gains can be seen when the game is bottlenecked by the CPU which can be quite common even on high-end machines and this was main goal to improve on with Mantle. We’ve also been able to streamline and optimize some of the GPU workload. The end result is that game performance is improved in virtually all scenarios in Battlefield 4 on both Windows 7 and Windows 8 when running with Mantle!


This update is the first release of our new Mantle renderer, and we will continue to provide more tuning for different types of configurations in future updates. Still, we are really happy with the performance improvements that we are seeing with this update and we believe you will be as well.


Read on for the full details on how to enable Mantle, and some information on the kind of performance gains you can expect.
How to enable Mantle

In order to use Mantle you will need the following:

-AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta drivers. AMD will post them here.
-AMD Radeon GPU with Graphics Core Next (Note: AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 initially supports the AMD Radeon™ R9 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and “Kaveri” APU (learn more))
-64-bit Windows (7, 8 or 8.1)


If you have the above you will see a new “Graphics API” option in the in-game Graphics Options settings after starting the game, here you can switch between using DirectX 11 and Mantle (remember to restart the game after changing).





If the “Graphics API” option is missing, that means you do not have a compatible GPU and driver and the game will use the standard DirectX 11 graphics API instead.
Performance tests

To compare performance with Mantle vs DX11 we in Frostbite have done a couple of benchmarks with Battlefield 4 on 3 different configurations & test scenes:
Test case 1: Low-end single-player
CPU/GPU: AMD A10-7850K (‘Kaveri’ APU), 4 cores @ 3.7 GHz
Settings: 720p MEDIUM settings.
OS: Windows 7 64-bit
Level: Singapore “Beach”
This area is heavy on the CPU as it is quite a lot of action going on, but the game is primarily GPU-bound both on DX and with Mantle but thanks to GPU optimizations with Mantle we get a good performance improvement.
Result: 26.6 ms/f -> 23.3 ms/f = 14% faster




Test case 2: Standard 64-player multiplayer
CPU: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
GPU: AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB (AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle’s release schedule, learn more)
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 1x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: Siege of Shanghai
Level was tested with 64 “pseudo players” that we have for our own internal testing that simulates heavy game workload that we have in multiplayer in order to get more deterministic results compared to full real multiplayer. 64 players on the large Battlefield levels is really demanding of the CPU so this test case is primarily CPU-bound.
Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster




Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs
CPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
GPU: 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 4x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: South China Sea “Broken Flight Deck”
This single-player scene is heavy on both the CPU and GPU with lots of action going on. Test was done on the highest end Intel CPU on Windows 8, which is the fastest option before Mantle thanks to DirectX 11.1. Still this CPU is not fast enough to keep the 2 290x GPUs fed at 1080p on Ultra settings so we get a significant CPU performance bottleneck which results in major performance improvement when enabling Mantle.
Result: 13.24 ms/f -> = 8.38 ms/f = 58% faster




Here is a summary of the test cases:


Test case 1: Low-end single-player 2: 64-player multi-player 3: Multi-GPU single-player CPU AMD A10-7850K (‘Kaveri’ APU), 4 cores @ 3.7 GHz AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz GPU N/A AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB Settings 720p Medium Ultra 1080p Ultra 1080p 4x MSAA OS Windows 7 64-bit Windows 8 64-bit Windows 8 64-bit Level Singapore Siege of Shanghai South China Sea DX11 avg 26.6 ms/f (37.6 fps) 18.87 ms/f (52.9 fps) 13.24 ms/f (78.4 fps) Mantle avg 23.3 ms/f (43 fps) 15.08 ms/f (66.3 fps) 8.38 ms/f (121.5 fps) Improvement 14% faster 25.1% faster 58% faster
These results are concrete examples of what we have seen in heavy scenarios. But it is important to point out that on PC there are of course many different types of CPU, GPU and OS configurations as well as the workload in the game is highly varying throughout both single-player and in multi-player, so one can’t say say a single fixed number of how much faster it is.


Fortunately there are a quite a few PC hardware review sites that are planning to do their own benchmarks of Battlefield 4 running with Mantle to compare a much wider set of PC configurations and gameplay situations, and I’m sure a lot of Battlefield players will do the same and share.
Performance tools

To simplify measuring performance in the game we’ve added a new tool to the in-game console to record frame times for later analysis. Simply run “PerfOverlay.FrameFileLogEnable 1″ to start saving frame times and “PerfOverlay.FrameFileLogEnable 0″ to stop. The resulting .csv file will be located in Documents/Battlefield 4 which can be opened & graphed by Excel or other applications for viewing.Another in-game tool that is useful to use is “Render.DrawScreenInfo 1″ that will now show additional on-screen information about your CPU & GPU config, resolution and as well as if Mantle or DirectX 11 is used for rendering.



Feedback

If you try out Mantle in BF4 we would really like to hear your feedback about it! If you have any feedback about performance or your experience in general with Mantle in Battlefield 4, please post on the Battlelog forums or in the comments section below.


If you are having any technical problems when running with Mantle, please let us know by posting on answers.ea.com and we’ll look into it. It is still possible to switch back to the existing DirectX 11 rendering.


This patch is the first release of our Mantle renderer. We will continue to add improvements, based on your feedback, in upcoming Battlefield 4 updates as well. In particular we plan to focus next on adding multi-GPU frame pacing and a few additional GPU performance and memory optimizations.


I hope you are as excited as we are about the release of the new Mantle renderer. If you have any questions, ask them below and we’ll do our best to answer them.

Since we appear to have a ton of duplicate Mantle threads, I'm stickying this one.

Super Moderator BFG10K.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. Specially with the absense of any direct performance benefits. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.

Is that another ShintaiDK forecast?

So you really believe that consoles get that kind of performance from ultra crappy hardware by running only on something like the APIs that exist in the PC?

And it isn't something that will run on BF4 - it is something that will run on the frostbite engine.

From the same anandtech article from the OP

At the same time, when it comes to writing APIs we also have to briefly mention the fact that unlike the PC world, the use of both high level and low level APIs are a common occurrence in console software. High level APIs are still easier to use, but when you’re working with a fixed platform with a long shelf life, low level APIs not only become practical, but they become essential to extracting the maximum performance out of a piece of hardware. As good as a memory manager or a state manager is, if you know your code inside and out then there are numerous shortcuts and optimizations that are opened up by going low level, and these are matters that hardcore console developers will chase in full. So when we talk about AMD writing APIs for the new consoles, we’re really talking about AMD writing two APIs for the new consoles: a high level API, equivalent to the likes of Direct3D and OpenGL, and a low level API suitable for banging on the hardware directly for maximum performance.

If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.

 

[Grooveriding]

PS4 supports OpenGL, as well as DX11 and makes use of a low-level API. Much like the 360 and PS3 allow developers to do the same at a low-level. If you read Ryan's article it helps to explain. I think they basically have to go this way with consoles with their long shelf-life and static hardware set to keep getting as much performance out of them as possible.

http://www.geek.com/games/sony-iimprove-directx-11-for-the-ps4-blu-ray-1544364/

Those improvements include better shader pipeline access, improved debugging support features out the box, and much lower level access to the system hardware enabling developers to do “more cool things.” That’s achieved not only through an modified DirectX 11.1 API, but also a secondary low-level API specifically for the PS4 hardware.

 

[ShintaiDK]

PS4 supports OpenGL, as well as DX11 and makes use of a low-level API. Much like the 360 and PS3 allow developers to do the same at a low-level. If you read Ryan's article it helps to explain. I think they basically have to go this way with consoles with their long shelf-life and static hardware set to keep getting as much performance out of them as possible.

http://www.geek.com/games/sony-iimprove-directx-11-for-the-ps4-blu-ray-1544364/

The PS4 doesnt run Windows, meaning no DirectX. And DirectX emulation is far from high performance.

 

[MeldarthX]

Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. Specially with the absense of any direct performance benefits. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.

One saying its used on X1 - now another saying its very similar to one used on PS4....

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-could-amd-mantle-revolutionise-pc-gaming


Gee I'd say you're batting a 1000 in your predictions their Shin......


This looks to be the low level API that unites at least 3 platforms.......along with a 4th around the corner.

 

[exar333]

We could very well be seeing the 'new' DirectX standard here guys. If this is truly be used for both the XBOne and PS4, and soon for AMD Desktop, there is no reason this couldn't just be the new standard.

Obviously AMD worked with MS on this for the XBOne, and it very well may be why MS has been so quiet on the DX front, because they see this as future.

 

[Arkadrel]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-could-amd-mantle-revolutionise-pc-gaming

However, it's in the performance side of things that we should see potentially radical improvements. Mantle offers developers direct access to graphics RAM for the first time (currently everything is left to the DirectX API), and we are promised a 9x increase in draw calls issued from the CPU. One of the biggest bottlenecks of all, draw calls are very expensive to process, leading many developers to pre-compute elements like environmental detail in order to reduce the number of calls. The vast increase in draw call throughput could have a profound effect on conventional rendering performance, but also offers the potential to more readily bypass pre-computation, resulting in more dynamic, richer, more immersive worlds.

This mantle stuff is really cool and could drastically change PC gameing, as it is today.

Frostbite itself is one of the more advanced DX11 engines in play today - with Mantle handling the super-advanced Battlefield 4, the API couldn't really get a better stress test. Andersson himself promises "more performance and a better gaming experience" from the Mantle version of Battlefield 4 on PC.

Potentially, we could see key games on AMD graphics cards significantly out-performing the same software running on more expensive Nvidia products.

Imagine seeing people with 7870's getting higher FPS than people that bought Nvidia GTX Titan,
the [redacted] storm this could kick up......

By partnering with DICE and integrating into Frostbite, AMD is practically guaranteed support across the range of EA's most technologically advanced games - all of which use the engine.

Doesnt sound like its just 1 game, it ll be alot of games in the near future.
Doesnt sound like its only DICE either thats behinde it, this could actually see decent traction.

Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
-- stahlhart

 

[Meekers]

I just think it is funny that most people saw something like this coming when AMD got xbox+ps yet there were a few people who were incredibly vocal in insisting that AMD would not get any optimizations out of it.

If this pans out do you think NVIDIA will still say that consoles were not worth the effort?

 

[wand3r3r]

We could very well be seeing the 'new' DirectX standard here guys. If this is truly be used for both the XBOne and PS4, and soon for AMD Desktop, there is no reason this couldn't just be the new standard.

Obviously AMD worked with MS on this for the XBOne, and it very well may be why MS has been so quiet on the DX front, because they see this as future.

That is probably the best point I've seen yet. If MS knows about this you think there is no way they'd willingly give up directx and lose those windows sales. They have to know and it will be interesting to know if this is part of the future plans. There's no way they'd donate effort and give away the xbox source code to allow this otherwise.

 

[MarkLuvsCS]

I'd take this with a grain of salt. As mentioned in the anandtech article Glide was a great alternative to d3d created by the juggernaut at the time 3dfx. AMD does have the consoles so it's not hard to see Mantle exist if for no other reason than that, but in the PC space it's going to require developers to manage two code paths for the near future. None the less, there hasn't been anything quite so interesting in the graphics rendering in quite some time. Sadly OpenGL has never been able to rock the boat so to speak. I'm glad to see new ideas and competition this will bring to our graphics engines.

 

[KingFatty]

Wait a minute, so then software will come in a "Mantle" version, and then a plain vanilla version?

That would suck. I don't want to buy software that has vendor-specific code cooked in. They should follow NVidia's lead and make Mantle a selectable feature, so you can buy one game software, and run it on whatever, and if you have the supported features, it will take advantage of them. Don't tie me down to a mantle-specific version of a game, because who knows what my next video card will be?

 

[Genx87]

It all depends if developers put in the effort to code for a lower level API. If this is used on consoles one would think they could put the effort in on the PC side. But at the same time they will be doing a special rendering path for a company that owns a small part of the market. Time will tell. I wouldnt be against such a thing. More performance is always welcome. I am just skeptical AMD is the company to get it done. I am still waiting on GPU-Physics on their cards via Havok 7 years later.

 

[Face2Face]

Wait a minute, so then software will come in a "Mantle" version, and then a plain vanilla version?

That would suck. I don't want to buy software that has vendor-specific code cooked in. They should follow NVidia's lead and make Mantle a selectable feature, so you can buy one game software, and run it on whatever, and if you have the supported features, it will take advantage of them. Don't tie me down to a mantle-specific version of a game, because who knows what my next video card will be?

Sounds like it's going an update supplied by the game developers, almost like a patch.

 

[tviceman]

Mantle is a really, really great idea but Ryan Smith said it best with the front page article "A lot of press – ourselves included – immediately began comparing Mantle to Glide."

AMD might have a little bit more leverage than 3dfx did at the time (although 3dfx was THE only real 3D accelerator to own until basically the TNT, and even then still remained highly popular), but the fact is Intel's IGP has huge proliferation, Nvidia has a larger discrete share of graphics cards, and developers are already splitting time between different API's. I see physx-like adoption for Mantle. It won't fail, but it's going to take several years for any real traction and even then I will question how well it will work when XB1 and PS4 are two generations removed from what AMD will have on the market.

 

[RussianSensation]

When PS4/XB1 start running out of GPU power, which is inevitable, developers will realize that there is a Mantle API that can give the consoles an additional 2-3 year life. What's being missed here is:

From AT's overview:

"More than anything else about Mantle, this is the point AMD has been trying to drive home, as they are well aware of the potential controversy Mantle would bring. Mantle doesn’t just exist because AMD wants to leverage their console connection, but Mantle exists because developers want to leverage it too."

PhysX was a prioprietory solution no one really begged for. Otoh, developers specifically asked AMD to create a lower-level API. If the developers asked AMD to do it, why would they not use it? It defeats the purpose of asking. For years developers kept criticizing DX API overheads. Now they are getting what they asked for.

Get this, if you start using lower-level API on PS4/XB1, your performance will fly. That means more development time upfront as you learn it but over time you get way better graphics and performance which is key for AAA titles. For major game developers to not use Mantle for PS4/XB1 would be absolutely insane when it could give them "free" performance. MS even said they are committing to using this API to speed up performance of their console. Also, if you develop a game with Mantle from the start and port it to PC, you don't have to worry about your game running like garbage when it's ported (RAGE, GTAIV, etc.). It will save developers time for porting games to the PC from XB1 for example.

"Mantle also assists game developers in bringing games to life on multiple platforms by leveraging the commonalities between GCN-powered PCs and consoles for a simple game development process." If someone told you look you can use this lower-level API and get games to run 2-3x faster on XB1, once you learn that code, why would you want to go back and code games for XB1 using DX and then spend millions of dollars working backwards to optimize a shoddy console port/console gaming performance?

What about IQ?

"Johan described this API similar to the one found on consoles where programmers are able to code to the metal. Moreover, Mantle enables higher graphics performance with direct access to all GPU features and brings some new rendering techniques (which AMD will most probably reveal at the AMD Developer Summit in November 11-14, 2013 in San Jose).

Mantle is compatible with DirextX HLSL for simplified porting, will works with all GCN GPUs, and Battlefield 4 will be the first game supporting it."
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-a...-radeon-cards-offering-9x-better-performance/

 

[SiliconWars]

AMD has guys at every gaming studio - they could even code for Mantle if needed.

At worst it's going to cost AMD money to bribe the devs. Maybe a lot of money? Who knows, but in the end that's what Nvidia has been doing for years, and if it's worth it for AMD to pay for Mantle, that's what they'll do. How many really big games (that are always benchmarked) are there per year? 20? So AMD has to pay a couple of million for each game, that's nothing compared to what they'll gain in sales.

 

[exar333]

That is probably the best point I've seen yet. If MS knows about this you think there is no way they'd willingly give up directx and lose those windows sales. They have to know and it will be interesting to know if this is part of the future plans. There's no way they'd donate effort and give away the xbox source code to allow this otherwise.

Exactly.

Anyone think this MS announcement this week is also a coincidence?

http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+Looks+to+Unify+Development+for+Xbox+Windows+and+Windows+Phone/article33415.htm

 

[beginner99]

But at the same time they will be doing a special rendering path for a company that owns a small part of the market.

Nope, AMD will own a big part of the gaming market, namely XB1, PS4 and the share of PCs with GCN cards.

A game coded for mantle as far as i understood would not have to be ported at all to run on a PC with a GCN GPU. The port to D3D then is only required for NV cards and older AMD cards.

 

[Silverforce11]

They dont need to bribe devs, if you are a big studio with an intention of making cross-platform games, you would kill to have an API thats easily portable to and from XBONE, PS4 and PC, one that is highly optimized to extract the best performance from the hardware. On the PC side, it just enables a different mode that allows the game to run much faster. Its there, why would you not use it if you make cross-platform games?

@ Meekers: "I just think it is funny that most people saw something like this coming when AMD got xbox+ps yet there were a few people who were incredibly vocal in insisting that AMD would not get any optimizations out of it."

Exactly. People who think there wont be significant gains for PC radeons is fooling themselves. The entire point of the AMD focus on graphics and their acquisition of ATI is about this, making a killer APU that is the core of gaming for years to come, and leverage that to dominate on the PC sector with their discrete as well as APUs. AMD as a CPU only company has no chance to compete with Intel, they are doomed.

 

[exar333]

They dont need to bribe devs, if you are a big studio with an intention of making cross-platform games, you would kill to have an API thats easily portable to and from XBONE, PS4 and PC, one that is highly optimized to extract the best performance from the hardware. On the PC side, it just enables a different mode that allows the game to run much faster. Its there, why would you not use it if you make cross-platform games?

@ Meekers: "I just think it is funny that most people saw something like this coming when AMD got xbox+ps yet there were a few people who were incredibly vocal in insisting that AMD would not get any optimizations out of it."

Exactly. People who think there wont be significant gains for PC radeons is fooling themselves. The entire point of the AMD focus on graphics and their acquisition of ATI is about this, making a killer APU that is the core of gaming for years to come, and leverage that to dominate on the PC sector with their discrete as well as APUs. AMD as a CPU only company has no chance to compete with Intel, they are doomed.

Great point. Hopefully this will help further simplify dev for consoles/PC platforms as a whole. That means sooner releases and better performance (especially on the PC). Crappy ports may well be more of the exception, rather than the rule. A guy can dream.

Edit: Also lowers the bar a little for PC gaming. 20% boost (let's just say) may not mean a 'lot' on the mid to high end, but it's HUGE for integrated graphics. That bumps 30fps to 36, 25fps to 30 fps, etc. More hardware capable of playing games means a larger market to sell to. That's a great thing for the PC market.

 

[OCGuy]

I've never seen PC gamers admire console graphics so much.......

 

[Silverforce11]

I've never seen PC gamers admire console graphics so much.......

Are you kidding? For the past several generations, we all lamented at the fact that the consoles are "holding back" gaming..

Now AMD comes out with a solution, optimize your game on console, and it will run optimized on the PC. Its a fact that console cycles dominate gaming development, because making games is so expensive, studios need to go where the $$ is.

 

[Stuka87]

One of the things I see as being a big deal with Mantle is video memory usage. Consoles have always had less member than PC's, yet have gotten similar visuals.

Direct X (Like most API's that manage their own memory) can be very inefficient with the way things are stored. .NET is notorious for this. Memory fragmentation is a very real thing.

With mantle, and developers being able to make direct memory calls, the speed and efficiency increase could be huge.

 

[blackened23]

I've never seen PC gamers admire console graphics so much.......

Well the truth of the matter is that consoles provide the greatest amount of revenue, by far, to developers - so consoles are always the first and foremost consideration when developing a multi platform game. This obviously has effects on PC versions of games as well since the PC is generally an afterthought, or the better PC ports will have specific DX11 features thrown in. But, again, console versions of multiplatform games are always the primary consideration due to revenue.

I think at this point, it should be fairly obvious that console gaming affects PC gaming as well. Some developers will add a few PC specific DX11 features - but, again, their primary consideration for revenue are consoles.