The AMD Mantle Thread

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Feb 19, 2009
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They hate on it because they realize its a potential threat to their beloved NV, when they folk out massive $$ on GPUs that run slower than an AMD GPU running Mantle for much less, its painful.

As a vendor neutral person who only cares about the best bang for buck, I see these initiatives (to improve performance or enhance visual IQ without massive performance loss) as worthy endeavours.
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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http://techreport.com/review/25683/delving-deeper-into-amd-mantle-api/3

2 months manhours was pure rubbish as some previously claimed. For DICE that means 100s of people working for 2 months. No wonder DICE wanted a fat check.

For Thief alone we talk 10% higher cost to add Mantle support. In other words, 1-2 million $ if not more.

100s of people working for 2 months? Care to provide some sort, ANY sort, of rationale behind that statement?

Usually when making such an extravagant claim, it's customary to provide some sort of proof to back it up. Otherwise, it's nothing more than threadcrapping.
 
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MeldarthX

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May 8, 2010
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100s of people working for 2 months? Care to provide some sort, ANY sort, of rationale behind that statement?

Usually when making such an extravagant claim, it's customary to provide some sort of proof to back it up. Otherwise, it's nothing more than threadcrapping.


He can't and he won't - nor will he admit he's wrong.

10% of a port - of the game with budget around 40-50 million is possibly 3-5 million or each port; including PC port.....now 10% of that is 300-500k -

That is the actual cost Thief has seen to impliment mantle; and developer said; the time and money was Well worth it.

I forgot they are being paid to say this........*no they aren't* why do you think Mantle adoption is going quickly into Engines......because that's where it will make the most difference in performance.

But the hate will continue along with the lies - Mantle and rattled a few cages...
 
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BrightCandle

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Mar 15, 2007
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The team itself is actually thousands of people. If you look at the credits you will find frostbite is a few hundred but its impossible to know who is working on it. Unless they release exact man hours we won't ever know, but it's fair to assume it's significant effort because it's a really core change.
 

SiliconWars

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Dec 29, 2012
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Btw, that 20% extra performance claim from Katsman in Thief? Read again. http://techreport.com/review/25683/delving-deeper-into-amd-mantle-api/3

The APIs we have right now, they just allow us to queue synchronous workloads. We say, "draw some triangles," and then, "do some compute," and the driver can try to be a little smart, and maybe it'll overlap some of that. But for the most part, it's serial, and where we're doing one thing, it's not doing other things. With Mantle . . . we can schedule compute work in parallel with the normal graphics work. That allows for some really interesting optimizations that will really help your overall frame rate and how . . . with less power, you can achieve higher frame rates.
What we'd see, for example—say we're rendering shadow maps. There's really not much compute going on. . . . Compute units are basically sitting there being idle. If, at the same time, we are able to do post-processing effects—say maybe even the post-processing from a previous frame, or what we could do in Tomb Raider, [where] we have TressFX hair simulations, which can be quite expensive—we can do that in parallel, in compute, with these other graphics tasks, and effectively, they can become close to zero cost.
If we guessed that maybe only 50% of that compute power was utilized, the theoretical number—and we won't reach that, but in theory, we might be able to get up to 50% better GPU performance from overlapping compute work, if you would be able to find enough compute work to really fill it up.
...and then the statement -

The 50% figure is a theoretical best-case scenario, but Katsman added, "It seems quite realistic that you would get maybe 20% additional GPU performance out of optimizations like that."
So Katsman is saying that 20% extra performance is possible through using compute for optimizations alone. Just through the ability to run compute synchronized with normal GPU functions an extra 20% performance is possible - this is not including any other Mantle optimization, just the asynchronous compute.
 
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MeldarthX

Golden Member
May 8, 2010
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The team itself is actually thousands of people. If you look at the credits you will find frostbite is a few hundred but its impossible to know who is working on it. Unless they release exact man hours we won't ever know, but it's fair to assume it's significant effort because it's a really core change.


Actually the team that works on the engine would be far smaller than that itself.

I can give you the exact number of people that's worked on Frostbyte engine - its 50......do you think it took all 50 of them to impliment Mantle?

don't believe me...

http://www.frostbite.com/team/all-of-us/
 

stahlhart

Super Moderator Graphics Cards
Dec 21, 2010
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Just to point out the obvious, you're pulling imaginary numbers out of your personal nether dimension that are not only un-linkable, but are utterly unrelated to any semblance of logic or common sense.

Stop the disruptive font enhancements now, or your posts are going to be removed from this forum.
-- stahlhart
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
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http://techreport.com/review/25683/delving-deeper-into-amd-mantle-api/3

2 months manhours was pure rubbish as some previously claimed. For DICE that means 100s of people working for 2 months. No wonder DICE wanted a fat check.

Not even close, this doesn't even make sense I doubt there are even close to 100 people working on the development of the engine.


For Thief alone we talk 10% higher cost to add Mantle support. In other words, 1-2 million $ if not more.

Yeah you mean nothing close to that cost, they are talking about the development cost of the PC port. That has nothing to do with all the other costs that go into making, advertising, selling,... a game. I would be surprised if it cost even 50k.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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They hate on it because they realize its a potential threat to their beloved NV, when they folk out massive $$ on GPUs that run slower than an AMD GPU running Mantle for much less, its painful.

As a vendor neutral person who only cares about the best bang for buck, I see these initiatives (to improve performance or enhance visual IQ without massive performance loss) as worthy endeavours.

There is no hate for Mantle, but I and I'm sure others are rather annoyed at all the over the top expectations of Mantle.

There is also slight concern that it could be a negative impact for DX gaming, which most will still be using.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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There is no hate for Mantle, but I and I'm sure others are rather annoyed at all the over the top expectations of Mantle.

There is also slight concern that it could be a negative impact for DX gaming, which most will still be using.

Some of us are tired of certain people running around claiming Mantle is the second coming of Christ and how it will ridicule things.

The fact is, nobody has any real information and all these claims being made are completely unsubstantiated. It would be rather easy to come out with a tech demo using Mantle and DX and show the theoretical improvements, however AMD has yet to do that.

When we get some real information, perhaps people will not "hate" Mantle as much.
 

SiliconWars

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Dec 29, 2012
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If AMD came out with that demo you'd all just line up to shoot it down for not being an independent source or a real game.

I'm quite certain that when the BF4 patch launches with spectacular performance gains you'll say it was all because AMD spent $8 million and that the average improvement will be much lower.
 

Minkoff

Member
Nov 7, 2013
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I'm quite interested in what has been said and quoted by Techreport-> Mantle support coming to third-party GPUs would be not for technical reasons, but for political ones. -> for the political reason we are all aware of but I'm not sure what he means by "technical reasons"
And "AMD .... is "fairly open to working with other [independent hardware vendors]," and ....Mantle has been "purposely structured . . . in such a way that it's as clean as possible, as transferable to other vendors as possible."

So, could this mean that Mantle covers common feature set for Nvidia and is ready for specific ones?
For me, it's almost clear that in order to keep Mantle not bloated older generation GPU's will probably not see Mantle support but future ones...
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
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So Katsman is saying that 20% extra performance is possible through using compute for optimizations alone. Just through the ability to run compute synchronized with normal GPU functions an extra 20% performance is possible - this is not including any other Mantle optimization, just the asynchronous compute.

agreed
 
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bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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If AMD came out with that demo you'd all just line up to shoot it down for not being an independent source or a real game.

I'm quite certain that when the BF4 patch launches with spectacular performance gains you'll say it was all because AMD spent $8 million and that the average improvement will be much lower.

Demos are not games. There have been demos with a lot of different tech, which show them in their greatest light, but once you build a full game around the tech, they always have to dial things back as there are other things that need to utilize the resources.

So yeah, a demo would not impress me, unless it showed things we've never seen before. Performance doesn't mean much to me, when it comes to demos.
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
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Stop the disruptive font enhancements now, or your posts are going to be removed from this forum.
-- stahlhart

???

You appear to be saying it's not okay to use the posting tools provided by this site to compose messages.

I checked the forum rules and could find nothing that would proscribe such use.

So ... this is based on your arbitrary interpretation of HOW I use those tools as being or not being disruptive?

Is ANY use of the tools - fonts, colors, bold, italics, underline or size - permissible?


Moderator callouts are against the forum rules. You should know you need to take this to Moderator discussions.
-Rvenger
 
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Obsoleet

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Oct 2, 2007
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I don't think so but would imagine Microsoft's API would mature and be more efficient moving forward.

I'm on the Mantle Lovin' side of things here. As I have held NV in disdain since their driver quality went so far downhill they were killing cards (3 or 4 times...)

But I think we can all agree on one thing: thank you AMD for pushing the industry forward. We're going to probably get a better D3D, and more importantly- a better OGL.

While Nvidia's tech (Physx/Gsync) has done nothing for the overall betterment of our hobby, AMD has continually improved the entire industry. Their APUs probably being the #1 factor in Intel improving theirs, which affects all of us including our games' lowest-common-denominator (Intel HD graphics).

Reconsider putting down the Nvidia card next time, AMD does us all a lot more good and that's no exaggeration. AMD is just more relevant than Nvidia in every way, support them.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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While you may not like PhysX, how can you say Gsync is not for the betterment of gaming or PC use in general. It is such an important step that needed to be done, since the death of CRT's. There is no way AMD will not follow. It is too important and too big of an improvement to pass up.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,980
595
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Some of us are tired of certain people running around claiming Mantle is the second coming of Christ and how it will ridicule things.

The most enthusiastic voices are actually from the game developers.
???

You appear to be saying it's not okay to use the posting tools provided by this site to compose messages.
I was thinking the same thing, the options are there but we can't use them?
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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Nope. They target 2 completely different things with different results.

Different how? According to the Anandtech preview the performance was the same above 60 fps, but on dropping below 60 fps was where Gsync looked a lot better.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7436/nvidias-gsync-attempting-to-revolutionize-gaming-via-smoothness

The first demo was a swinging pendulum. NVIDIA's demo harness allows you to set min/max frame times, and for the initial test case we saw both systems running at a fixed 60 fps. The performance on both systems was identical as was the visual experience. I noticed no stuttering, and since v-sync was on there was no visible tearing either.
AMD says this about Mantle - http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1807817&postcount=677

There are at least three areas where Mantle can help with frame latency or stuttering issues.
The first is generally higher performance, meaning a higher percentage of frames (or all frames depending on workload/HW configuration) rendered at or above the monitor's refresh rate. The more time spent above 60 Hz the more stability in frame rate.
The second is what Jurjen from Nixxes mentioned in his presentation: no stuttering due to runtime shader compilation or similar events that would usually be triggered by the DX runtime. (Some of it can be alleviated by pre-warming your shader cache in DX but in practice catching all shader permutations is difficult for an engine).
The third is multi adapter support, namely the ability for more than one GPU/APU to process graphics or compute workload for the same frame (as opposed to current Alternate Frame Rendering Multi-GPU solutions that increase input lag).
Seems like 2 different ways to get to the same result to me.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Different how? According to the Anandtech preview the performance was the same above 60 fps, but on dropping below 60 fps was where Gsync looked a lot better.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7436/nvidias-gsync-attempting-to-revolutionize-gaming-via-smoothness

AMD says this about Mantle - http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1807817&postcount=677

Seems like 2 different ways to get to the same result to me.

Mantle will not change this issue at all:

In traditional setups a display will refresh the screen at a fixed interval, but in a G-Sync enabled setup the display won't refresh the screen until it's given a new frame from the GPU.

NVIDIA then dropped the frame rate on both systems down to 50 fps, once again static. The traditional system started to exhibit stuttering as we saw the effects of having a mismatched GPU frame rate and monitor refresh rate. Since the case itself was pathological in nature (you don't always have a constant mismatch between the two), the stuttering was extremely pronounced. The same demo on the g-sync system? Flawless, smooth.
2 completely different things.
 
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