The AMD Mantle Thread

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SiliconWars

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Dec 29, 2012
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Some people have argued that theres no way out of this for Nvidia, not with steam box, not with creating their own API(as AMD have such a hold in the console market) and theres no way they catch up on performance with Direct X.

So what if Nvidia designed a massively multicore processor deisgned for feeding the mantle API, and designed to dominate in games, rather than compete with intel for general purpose performance.

It would take years for the first chip to be seen, by then it'll be far too late.

The only likely way out for them is by designing their own API, which is still at least a 2-3 year project, by which stage Mantle should have put AMD firmly in the driving seat. Even then they have the issue of not having their own APU which can be used in combination with discrete graphics, so they'll always be lagging anyway.

It's pretty bad. They're mostly just waiting and hoping the damage isn't a knockout blow, imo. The silence coming out of NVHQ is deafening.

I would worry about Microsoft!

If they were that worried (or even cared so much now) they'd just buy AMD and take it for themselves. I reckon a few heavy hitters might be looking at that option though, so it won't be cheap.
 
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psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
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The only likely way out for them is by designing their own API, which is still at least a 2-3 year project, by which stage Mantle should have put AMD firmly in the driving seat. Even then they have the issue of not having their own APU which can be used in combination with discrete graphics, so they'll always be lagging anyway.

It's pretty bad. They're mostly just waiting and hoping the damage isn't a knockout blow, imo. The silence coming out of NVHQ is deafening.

Agreed.

From the presentations it's pretty obvious EA sees lots of $$$ in them thar Mantle hills. What EA sees, other developers and publishers will also.

According to Charlie D Nvidia has decided to exit a major market (over the next several years). My guess is it's x86 OEM and consumer graphics business.
 

Slomo4shO

Senior member
Nov 17, 2008
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My guess is it's x86 OEM and consumer graphics business.

I see no reason why they would want to remain in this sector. Discrete graphics solutions have been on a decline and will continue to decline in favor of integrated solutions. Nvidia has a mobile integrated solution in their Tegra lineup and this is the market with growth potential. It isn't realistic for Nvidia to come in with a x86 intergrated solution in the near future and the best possible option would be to expand upon their ARM based Tegra APUs.
 

sonofhendrix

Junior Member
Dec 8, 2013
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So it really could be very bad for Nvidia in the PC market. wow.

I think its a great market for AMD to be in, especially with a new generation of games for the new consoles being ported across to PC. Its still a strong industry with plenty of demand, especially if AMD gets to hog all of it. Steam box should also switch to AMD GPU. its the only thing that makes sense.
 

RaulF

Senior member
Jan 18, 2008
844
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So it really could be very bad for Nvidia in the PC market. wow.

I think its a great market for AMD to be in, especially with a new generation of games for the new consoles being ported across to PC. Its still a strong industry with plenty of demand, especially if AMD gets to hog all of it. Steam box should also switch to AMD GPU. its the only thing that makes sense.

Yeah that would suck. I hope they can come out with something to stay relevant.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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Competition is good. NV-haters should remember this. You won't appreciate NV until it's gone from consumer PCs and AMD will have monopoly pricing power on discrete cards.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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If they were that worried (or even cared so much now) they'd just buy AMD and take it for themselves. I reckon a few heavy hitters might be looking at that option though, so it won't be cheap.

Microsoft is already in the process of porting over the Xbox One's Direct3D implementation to Windows. So Windows will eventually get a console like API from Microsoft, without the GCN only limitations of Mantle.

When it does, Mantle will be another footnote in history.. I have to congratulate AMD though, because without pressure from Mantle, Microsoft would likely never have considered porting over the Xbox One's API to Windows.
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
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Microsoft is already in the process of porting over the Xbox One's Direct3D implementation to Windows. So Windows will eventually get a console like API from Microsoft, without the GCN only limitations of Mantle.

When it does, Mantle will be another footnote in history.. I have to congratulate AMD though, because without pressure from Mantle, Microsoft would likely never have considered porting over the Xbox One's API to Windows.

Source?
 

RaulF

Senior member
Jan 18, 2008
844
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Will be real nice is Mantle lets me run BF4 with everything max at 1080.

And by everything, i mean msaa 4x and resolution scaling at 200%.

Right now i am at 100% and 2x for msaa. Everthing else is maxed out, i barely go under 60 fps.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
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Microsoft is already in the process of porting over the Xbox One's Direct3D implementation to Windows. So Windows will eventually get a console like API from Microsoft, without the GCN only limitations of Mantle.

When it does, Mantle will be another footnote in history.. I have to congratulate AMD though, because without pressure from Mantle, Microsoft would likely never have considered porting over the Xbox One's API to Windows.

Yeaa. What do you think Xbox one (in)dIreCt3d is? Ask eg. Johan. lol.

So now MS is porting "mantle" (goes under different names in the consoles but uses similar if not compatible code) with cache support and CGN support to mantle without cache and GCN support??? What a great job. Except AMD already did it better.

Who wants to use an API that is further away from the consoles than Mantle? its only added cost for the devs. Its added cost to MS for no return.

It makes no financial sense from either dev or MS viewpoint.

And yes btw, will it run win 7? lol.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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Microsoft is already in the process of porting over the Xbox One's Direct3D implementation to Windows. So Windows will eventually get a console like API from Microsoft, without the GCN only limitations of Mantle.

When it does, Mantle will be another footnote in history.. I have to congratulate AMD though, because without pressure from Mantle, Microsoft would likely never have considered porting over the Xbox One's API to Windows.

XBox One is GCN also. Seems if M$ was to port the console API to Windows it would have to be as GCN specific as Mantle is until others adopted the minimum feature set, which they might already support, and joined on.

Here's a consideration. What if M$ couldn't adapt DX to what the Devs. wanted? Possibly because they couldn't break backward compatibility. AMD has said that there was a dialog with M$ concerning Mantle. The quote was something to the effect that they wouldn't do anything to damage the relationship they have with M$. They aren't blindsiding M$ with Mantle. M$ could have needed a way out of DX moving forward and Mantle and the Xbox1 API could be a means of doing it?
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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How so? Worry that they are going to do something, or worry they'll have no response for it?

DirectX is more the competition to Mantle -- not Intel or nVidia! nvidia or Intel could offer their own closer to the metal API but that would be added resources and fragmentation for the PC.

If DirectX matures more and offers closer to the metal efficiency, while being hardware agnostic would offer intense competition for AMD's Mantle and may not be worthwhile investing resources on it.

Curious to see how much of a competitive advantage AMD may muster here with Mantle and how long?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
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XBox One is GCN also. Seems if M$ was to port the console API to Windows it would have to be as GCN specific as Mantle is until others adopted the minimum feature set, which they might already support, and joined on.

Here's a consideration. What if M$ couldn't adapt DX to what the Devs. wanted? Possibly because they couldn't break backward compatibility. AMD has said that there was a dialog with M$ concerning Mantle. The quote was something to the effect that they wouldn't do anything to damage the relationship they have with M$. They aren't blindsiding M$ with Mantle. M$ could have needed a way out of DX moving forward and Mantle and the Xbox1 API could be a means of doing it?

What's up with the "M$" stuff? Is it 1999 again? Is that still cool or something? Like it or not Win7/8 and DirectX are by far the biggest gaming platforms on the PC and are, and will remain, ubiquitous for PC gaming. Even titles that potentially have Mantle support such as BF4, DX11 support will be there as well. Conversely, while I don't "dislike" OGL, there has been like, 1 openGL title of note in the past 5 years (non indie title) and that one was a bust - Rage. Obviously DX is and always will be the biggest PC gaming platform and MS is taking steps to improve it.

This hyperbole about Mantle "killing" DX is just ridiculous because we have Mantle here that might have 1 title in December. (Not you in particular, but others have stated this, and it is ridiculous) Meanwhile, everything is on DX and it will remain that way for years. Not sure what your issues with the whole "M$" thing is either, it isn't 1999 anymore. Now, all that said, I do welcome Mantle and i'm eager to see what it brings in terms of performance particularly with BF4. It could be great. We'll just have to wait and see. But Mantle is going to be a game changer because the biggest as of yet multiplatform engines will not be supporting Mantle directly unless a developer rewrites the engine from scratch (ie Unreal Engine 4).
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
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What's up with the "M$" stuff? Is it 1999 again? Is that still cool or something? Like it or not Win7/8 and DirectX are by far the biggest gaming platforms on the PC. There has been like, 1 openGL title of note in the past 5 years (non indie title) and that one was a bust - Rage.

This hyperbole about Mantle "killing" DX is just ridiculous because we have Mantle here that might have 1 title in December. Meanwhile, everything is on DX. Not sure what your issues with the whole "M$" thing is either, it isn't 1999 anymore.

Looks like you have the issue with the M$ thing. You're acting like I'm using profanity, or something.

I'm not talking about liking something or not. I was talking about M$ porting the Xbox1 API to Windows, and people thinking AMD was somehow threatening M$ with Mantle. They said that they had spoken to M$ about Mantle and that they maintained a valued relationship with M$.
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
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7-22-2011 ... "NVidia's long time cash cow mobile and mass market OEM graphics business and low end discrete board market will be pretty much dead in the water by this time next year and AMD owning the next generation consoles will eventually dry up their upper range discrete board sales. Why buy nVidia graphics when you know nearly all PC games are ported console games and ALL console games will be optimised for AMD graphics?

Where's the future for nvidia in x86 computer graphics? "

My goodness, this was nearly two and a half years ago! This psoomah is an astounding prognosicator!!!!!
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
0
0
Microsoft is already in the process of porting over the Xbox One's Direct3D implementation to Windows. So Windows will eventually get a console like API from Microsoft, without the GCN only limitations of Mantle.

When it does, Mantle will be another footnote in history.. I have to congratulate AMD though, because without pressure from Mantle, Microsoft would likely never have considered porting over the Xbox One's API to Windows.

DICE/EA made it a point to put on slide 31 of their APU13 presentation:

Mantle and PlayStation 4 will drive our future Frostbite designs & optimizations

‒ PS4 graphics API has great programmability & performance as well
‒ Share concepts, methods & optimization strategies
.........................
Microsoft's not invited to participate in their future plans.

Mantle operates cross platform, cross OS, cross everything. Every developers and publisher will be acutely aware Microsoft is simply trying to keep them on their leash. Mantle provides a tool to cut that leash. DICE/EA are blazing a path here that all developers and publishers will be interested in. Who in their right mind want's to stay under Microsoft's thumb?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Yep, nvidia is dead in the water with 65% desktop discrete market share and nearly 90% mobile discrete market share paired with Haswell ULV ultrabooks.
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
0
0

6-24-2013: "Any game publisher's HOLY GRAIL is for all the platforms it supports being locked down and running on nearly identical, very easy to program for hardware, substantially minimizing the time, money and manpower to develop their games and port them to those platforms and maximizing their profits.

In other words a Unified Gaming Strategy. That is the vision AMD is presenting to developers and publishers - and what a compelling and seductive vision it is. Strategically there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by supporting that vision."

This five months before Mantle was revealed??? Holey Moley, what kind of dangerous entrail reading witch IS this psoomah entity?

I say we BURN it!!!
 
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