The AMD Mantle Thread

[chimaxi83]

You're completely incorrect here. 3d surround audio takes virtually ZERO CPU utilization these days, maybe you're thinking of like, 1998 or something. 1998 has come and gone.

You can use CMSS 3D now and the effect on CPU utilization is zero. You can also use dolby surround. CPUs are so fast now that these things have absolutely zero effect on framerate.

True audio does absolutely nothing differently than what current 3d audio standards do, and CPU utilization is an incorrect argument. CPU became so fast 8-10 years ago that 3d hardware accelerated audio became a moot point. Again, you're thinking of 1998 or something when hardware 3d audio mattered. 3d audio has zero effect on cpu utilization currently. Why do you think Directsound stopped supporting hardware 3d audio? It's because it isn't needed. I've sat down and watched CPU utilization on a 3770k with SBX surround, and to say that nothing happened in terms of CPU use would be an understatement, again - it isn't 1998. Intel CPUs are so fast now that this has absolutely ZERO. ZERO effect on framerate.

Who cares? It's pretty obvious that

I don't get it..

and you never will, so why are you so serious about downplaying whatever TrueAudio ends up being? It's an enhancement. It's just like Gsync or PhysX. Both absolutely unnecessary, but very welcome enhancements.

 

[Will Robinson]

Seeing this is the Mantle thread....Perhaps the new TA hardware allows "close to the metal" audio programming ala Mantle?

 

[Stuka87]

You can use CMSS 3D now and the effect on CPU utilization is zero. You can also use dolby surround. CPUs are so fast now that these things have absolutely zero effect on framerate.

Zero effect? Really?! Wow, we need to get the guys that designed current software controlled audio to work on some other projects. Maybe we can get graphics to use zero percent CPU too!

The point of TrueAudio is not to lower CPU overhead, thats just an added benefit. The point is to have better audio with better spacial accuracy.

 

[Stuka87]

Am I supposed to be on the lookout (or hear-out) for anything in particular re: Lichdom? The comments to that youtube video are that many people can't tell the difference?

YouTube video and audio is compressed, and forced to stereo. NEVER use a youtube video to judge audio quality (Or video).

 

[Erenhardt]

New Killzone3 game uses some andvanced audio features.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-making-of-killzone-shadow-fall
I don't think it runs on CPU

 

[MeldarthX]

So do you concede that in terms of actual positional audio, that true audio doesn't do anything different? And changing the argument to "cpu utilization"? Not trying to be facetious or anything, i'm just making sure i'm understanding you here. Because if that is the implication, you're completely incorrect about cpu usage. 3d surround audio takes virtually zero CPU utilization these days, maybe you're thinking of like, 1998 or something. 1998 has come and gone. When aureal was around, this type of thing mattered. 3d hardware audio *had* a tangible and appreciable benefit that could be measured, that is no longer the case.

You can use CMSS 3D now and the effect on CPU utilization is zero. You can also use dolby surround. CPUs are so fast now that these things have absolutely zero effect on framerate. CPUs became so fast 8-10 years ago that 3d hardware accelerated audio became a moot point. Again, you're thinking of 1998 or something when hardware 3d audio mattered. 3d audio has zero effect on cpu utilization currently. Why do you think Directsound stopped supporting hardware 3d audio? It's because it isn't needed. I've sat down and watched CPU utilization on a 3770k with SBX surround, and to say that nothing happened in terms of CPU use would be an understatement, again - it isn't 1998. Intel CPUs are so fast now that this has absolutely ZERO. ZERO effect on framerate or CPU utilization.

Prove it has 0% utilization.......seriously.

Other presentations say otherwise; usually up to 30% for good audio. Plus the fact that MS killed hardware 3d audio in vista.......yes that long ago.

We haven't have good audio since before vista; that is the truth.

 

[MeldarthX]

New Killzone3 game uses some andvanced audio features.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-making-of-killzone-shadow-fall
I don't think it runs on CPU

*chuckles* PS4; wait doesn't that have truaudio? I believe it does

 

[krumme]

The consoles have the same dsp as the new amd cgn cards - and here the audio part also. They can call it all they want. Its the same hardware.
The only thing i think we need confirmation for, is if they use the same cortex a5 for security.
Its actually meaningless to talk about what is the same. As with an x86 cpu on the pc, the hardware with new cgn cards is excactly the same except sony using gddr5 and ms having a cache solution.

Mantle is on the hardware side practically the same to the consoles. The difference lies in the OS, and driver differences but the software will always build on the thin amd driver, and technical knowledge and papers. The software is bound to be very similar. No wonder.

What that means is for the devs wanting to be on the consoles and pc using mantle there is minor difference.

The difference is to dx.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

So do you concede that in terms of actual positional audio, that true audio doesn't do anything different? And changing the argument to "cpu utilization"? Not trying to be facetious or anything, i'm just making sure i'm understanding you here. Because if that is the implication, you're completely incorrect about cpu usage. 3d surround audio takes virtually zero CPU utilization these days, maybe you're thinking of like, 1998 or something. 1998 has come and gone. When aureal was around, this type of thing mattered. 3d hardware audio *had* a tangible and appreciable benefit that could be measured, that is no longer the case.

You can use CMSS 3D now and the effect on CPU utilization is zero. You can also use dolby surround. CPUs are so fast now that these things have absolutely zero effect on framerate. CPUs became so fast 8-10 years ago that 3d hardware accelerated audio became a moot point. Again, you're thinking of 1998 or something when hardware 3d audio mattered. 3d audio has zero effect on cpu utilization currently. Why do you think Directsound stopped supporting hardware 3d audio? It's because it isn't needed. I've sat down and watched CPU utilization on a 3770k with SBX surround, and to say that nothing happened in terms of CPU use would be an understatement, again - it isn't 1998. Intel CPUs are so fast now that this has absolutely ZERO. ZERO effect on framerate or CPU utilization.

CMSS 3d and Dolby Surround do not do what TrueAudio does.

My experience with CMSS 3d was that is sounded like hot garbage. Dolby Surround really doesn't do any processing, it just plays the audio that has been recorded.

 

[krumme]

The knowledge in 3d audio is 40 years old. But applying it as a standard for the consoles is new.

I think it will take some years before its adopted by the games because its later to the game than cgn and graphics will still get prioritized.

Secondly its very difficult to use new soundformats properly. It tooks years for the sound engineers to handle Stereo originally. It will take more than a handfull of years to fully master 3d audio.

I think the demos is good, and show the potential. I lisnt using good phones. For me its like getting 3d acceleration on the sound as it was with graphics. Its a huge difference, and games like bf4 could really use it. The sound in bf4 is good, but its unprecise and not reflecting your situation and what is happening. Its like the graphics in COD. The textures look nice, but the entire use and dynamics of it is crap.

 

[krumme]

Are you saying that if you have a Surround speaker system, then that supersedes TrueAudio? So TrueAudio is really just for headphone users? Not that I mind, since I game with headphones anyway.

If the games is well true optimized you will get far better sound than surround because TA gives height and generally can make the sounds far more realistic. Take the true audio demo on youtube it will show even on cheaper phones. Hell TA could dven give a fantatic music experience if anyone have the talent for it. Its a steep learning process to actually apply it right. Far more complex than eg using mantle for the gfx. Takes more years to learn.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I ran the Lichdom audio demo through my t50rp's and then on my q701's. The q701's show the effect far better than the t50rp's because they have a far great soundstage because of their open backed design. All headphones are not created equally, and the q701's are probably the best gaming headphones ever made. The soundstage of the Audio Technica AD700's with much better sound quality and seperation.

Demo sounds really good on the q701's.

 

[krumme]

I ran the Lichdom audio demo through my t50rp's and then on my q701's. The q701's show the effect far better than the t50rp's because they have a far great soundstage because of their open backed design. All headphones are not created equally, and the q701's are probably the best gaming headphones ever made. The soundstage of the Audio Technica AD700's with much better sound quality and seperation.

Demo sounds really good on the q701's.

I agree. Had a pair of open akg 701 and the soundstage is huge. But they demand a good amp and leak sound as open hp does. On my totally closed shure 840 the effect is very obvious enough. TA is working fine on cheaper gear imho. I wouldnt use cheap HP anyway.

 

[blastingcap]

What is awesome is that TrueAudio is in the PS4. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio

If consoles do not have something like TrueAudio, then we are likely to see low uptake of TrueAudio on PC. But if we can get the console games on board, then there is a greater chance that gamedevs take the time/effort/money to program for it, and then port it over to PC!

 

[NTMBK]

What is awesome is that TrueAudio is in the PS4. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio

If consoles do not have something like TrueAudio, then we are likely to see low uptake of TrueAudio on PC. But if we can get the console games on board, then there is a greater chance that gamedevs take the time/effort/money to program for it, and then port it over to PC!

And this is the upside to AMD winning both consoles.

 

[blastingcap]

And this is the upside to AMD winning all three consoles.

FTFY. Nintendo was displeased.

 

[NTMBK]

FTFY. Nintendo was displeased.

Ah, but they only got half of the Wii U

 

[blastingcap]

Ah, but they only got half of the Wii U

I rounded up.

 

[krumme]

What is awesome is that TrueAudio is in the PS4. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio

If consoles do not have something like TrueAudio, then we are likely to see low uptake of TrueAudio on PC. But if we can get the console games on board, then there is a greater chance that gamedevs take the time/effort/money to program for it, and then port it over to PC!

You can be pretty sure its the same for xbox as it makes no sense to devellop an entire dsp for yourself when you can just grap on from the shelf that is cheaper for the devs to program for as everyone else get the same dsp. But notice ms could run their own software on the dsp. And perhaps they dont pay for the true audio capabilities. We dont know that yet. But the hardware is surely there.

We still have to remember the consoles is like a phone soc just without 3g/lte. There is much hardware besides the cpu/gpu that is similar too. And still one runs linux like os the other ms implementation. It goes to show how flexible mantle and mantle like consoles is with regards to OS.

 

[blastingcap]

You can be pretty sure its the same for xbox as it makes no sense to devellop an entire dsp for yourself when you can just grap on from the shelf that is cheaper for the devs to program for as everyone else get the same dsp. But notice ms could run their own software on the dsp. And perhaps they dont pay for the true audio capabilities. We dont know that yet. But the hardware is surely there.

We still have to remember the consoles is like a phone soc just without 3g/lte. There is much hardware besides the cpu/gpu that is similar too. And still one runs linux like os the other ms implementation. It goes to show how flexible mantle and mantle like consoles is with regards to OS.

Do you have a link to this because I thought XBOX ONE had a proprietary audio chip or something?

 

[krumme]

I ran the Lichdom audio demo through my t50rp's and then on my q701's. The q701's show the effect far better than the t50rp's because they have a far great soundstage because of their open backed design. All headphones are not created equally, and the q701's are probably the best gaming headphones ever made. The soundstage of the Audio Technica AD700's with much better sound quality and seperation.

Demo sounds really good on the q701's.

Anyone remember the stereo on the first Beatles albums? Imho in today perspective it was very primitive stereo. When i Listen to the Lichdom demo i get the same impression but even more inmature. Its only scratchning what is is possible.

If i listen to the official true audio demo even using dirt cheap standard headset from my s4 i think its obvious that actually TA is able to create realistic neutral sound with cheap gear straight from the pc. I find music is far more demanding for good quality. So the one with the cheap gear could end up getting a huge benefit also.

I run Linkwitz Orion as speakers btw. Info for the sound nerds

 

[krumme]

Do you have a link to this because I thought XBOX ONE had a proprietary audio chip or something?

No its just assumptions and they can be wrong. We got the ps4 confirmation late also. If i remember correctly there was 60 man working on the consoles. Its nothing. They will have absolutely no time to add anything new to the core silicon besides the absolutely nessesary. I dont think sound is in that critial category as cache or gddr5 management.

Its perfectly possible that ms added a separate audio chip perhaps to avoid TA tax but I dont think its economically sound to carve out the small sound of the dsp part even though its all obviously heavily synthesized. It not like they need to fuse it of either.

Ms dont like this to be presented as mantle is xbox api. As ryan wrote originally. Instead later sony said mantle was ps4 like. I call bs and marketing talk here. Nobody want their unique hardware presented as the same silicon so they wrap it in a lot of words. Same hardware , except what we know, different name. The difference is on the os.

I am not saying this to insult the guy optimizing the driver for xbox but thats just what it looks like from dev perspective.

 

[Enigmoid]

Not close. Well it just did ???

Well this thread is about mantle. How is your notebook playing bf4? How is multiplayer with 64 on the maps?

Unless you have quad core i7 processor in your notebook, but only 2 core i5, kaveri will just kill it in bf4 with mantle.

I can see what the consoles can do with jaguar cores in bf4. Its evident cpu performance with mantle will be a huge gain.

And we have results where....?

Kaveri won't kill anything. Really look at the CPU here. The a10-4600m/5750m is superseded by most haswell i5 chips and an i7 quad absolutely kills it (like by a factor of thee in MT workloads). Even the i5 ULV chips are more or less equal. Not to mention that an i7-4700mq is on average as strong as a i5-3570 in MT games (3.2 Haswell + HT vs 3.6 Ivy) and insignificantly weaker in ST games. And a 3570 is plenty of CPU in BF4, especially when you consider you are dealing with a GPU along the lines of a 650.


Besides, won't mantle work on an i5 + gcn dgpu combo? I haven't seen an amd CPU as a necessity for mantle anywhere.

From the numerous kabini benchmarks the generalization that 4 kabini cores ~= 2 HT ivy bridge cores at the same frequency can be made. 6 kabini cores at ~1.7 ghz would be equal to 2.6 ghz ivy.

Its hard to find benchmarks but i3s are generally around 60 fps in BF4 MP at max settings (vs. the cut down version on the console).

(Toms looks like its held back by the GPU).

Lower the settings a little (which have a small effect on the CPU) and I'm not seeing much in the ways of console optimization.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4gaVvHXNC8

Bf4 SP ps4 and xbone framerates. Around 60 for the most part though the xbone often falls to the 50s. Explosions drop down to mid 40s.

As far as CPU performance in the SP campaign, BF4 follows BF3s tradition of being solidly CPU limited.

Compare that to the console campaign framerates and I'm not seeing anything impressive.

 

[Gloomy]

Xbone doesn't use TA. They use their own thing. But, it's based on the same DSP as TA, and it has 4.

 

[krumme]

Kaveri runs bf4 at high and ultra here at 720:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axyHkKn_e80

Now add mantle that lessens the cpu load and it will walk all over a dual core i5 in multiplayer. Whatever the gfx attached.

Now my gaming notebook is loaded with quad core i7 so i am not nervous. But if i had a dual core i5 with a nv card. Man ohh man... Thats not working for the new performance games.