The AMD Mantle Thread

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Grooveriding

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Its quite funny.

BF3 is a gaming evolved title and was said to play soo much better on AMD cards. But that didnt turn out to be true.

Since DICE now confirm that they used NVAPI on BF3, you could think that it already plays a role in todays games. Nvidia have much more cash than AMD not to mention way bigger software team, and since they have their own API, I dont think Nvidia have anything to fear in the future.

IF Mantle becomes a success.



Good to hear that DICE also will be using NVAPI on BF4

BF3 was not Gaming Evolved, there was no partner involvement like there is in BF4 with AMD. Any sane game developer optimizes for both vendors. They have to do this all the time so things like multi-gpu works, or in the case of Battlefield 3, take advantage of MSAA performance for nvidia.

Mantle is going to be an entire specific render path only on AMD cards. Something totally different from what he's referring to in that tweet.
 

Grooveriding

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Battlefield 4 and Frostbite 3 Will Support Both AMD Mantle and NVIDIA NVAPI
http://wccftech.com/battlefield-4-frostbite-3-support-amd-mantle-nvidia-nvapi-apis-pc-optimizations/
end of story.

Exactly. This link explains it well. Whereas Battlefield 4 will be using an AMD-specific render path of Mantle for increased performance instead of DX11, as seen in the slide :




For nvidia they will just continue to use 'good small improvements' but they will not be using a custom render path like they are for AMD, still just DX11 for nvidia and I'd assume AMD will be DX 11.1 and the custom Mantle renderer.

Obviously Mantle is going to be a whole other can of worms as it's an entire custom render path.
 

Cloudfire777

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BF3 was not Gaming Evolved, there was no partner involvement like there is in BF4 with AMD. Any sane game developer optimizes for both vendors. They have to do this all the time so things like multi-gpu works, or in the case of Battlefield 3, take advantage of MSAA performance for nvidia.

Mantle is going to be an entire specific render path only on AMD cards. Something totally different from what he's referring to in that tweet.

DICE themselves say that NVAPI brings improvements (obviously).

You or anyone else but AMD knows how much improvement Mantle will bring, or if it is really that more efficient than NVAPI.
If it is, Nvidia will not ne sitting and watching that unfold. They have a ton more money and manpower in the GPU department, so they can expand/improve the API. Again, I dont know how much, but same goes for Mantle. Will be interesting to see the tests, especially since you can switch from DX to Mantle so easily on the fly.

Right now its nothing but boasting from the AMD camp. But is it any wonder, since BF4 is a AMD evolved title and Im sure AMD used a decent amount of money to get this up and running on BF4. After all, its the first game they will be showing this with, so it is a make or break situation.
 

Fire&Blood

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Jan 13, 2009
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Nothing is stopping Nvidia from "making their own mantle" but it would be a tough sell even though I'm sure they would see gains similar to what AMD is seeing with Mantle. While there are way too many posts with the sole purpose to put AMD/Mantle down, there were legit concerns too, for example comparisons to Glide to point out why it may go the same way.

Just from what we know so far it has a couple of things going for it to think it's fate will differ from Glide. GPU market is a duopoly now and the architecture that Mantle is made for will be exclusive on the 2 most lucrative platforms for at least 5 years, assuming that's the minimum lifespan for the upcoming consoles as well controlling roughly half the PC market. 3dfx didn't even remotely have such foothold. AMD does and with the reduction of the gaming market to basically the PC and 2 consoles, they are in position to take advantage of a dominant architecture. It's clear what they went for, starting with code writing for 1 GCN is writing for 3GCN. Mantle is supposed to reduce overhead and allow more freedom with coding and make porting to other platforms easier than ever. The final benefit is to the gamer in a more efficient and possibly better looking way. Another important part to pitch developers is easier porting to the PC, even if it continues to be a meager market, with less effort to consistently port to the PC dev houses may port more of their titles more often..

There will probably be a few that may ignore the Mantle, even without Microsoft/Sony involved. However, the (imminent) presence of GCN across (now is the right time to adopt it) biggest money makers, the appeal of more efficient work, enabling tools and easier PC market entry should, emphasize should be enough to get 5 major houses to get into. I just can't the notion that this is exactly what capable devs, the ones that matter have been asking for.

Before I start handing out the Kool-Aid, this interesting announcement quote caight my eye:
Glide
was originally created as a response to the industry's need for an API that would allow developers to capitalize on emerging 3D technology,'' said Al Reyes, director of strategic marketing at
3dfx Interactive, Inc.
Today we have taken a leadership position overall by giving programmers and developers the tools necessary to continue to evolve the API to keep pace with the rapid improvements in 3D hardware capabilities.
Sounds eerily similar to me. Another old Glide article here:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/3dfx-unveils-glide-30-2464752

Hopefully 2-3 capable dev houses adopt Mantle soon to get the ball rolling. The "partnership" between AMD and Crytek doesn't mean much since Crytek is partnered with everyone but it would be huge if they get on board next. Anyone launching cross platform titles is bound to give it a serious consideration at the least.
 

Kenmitch

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You or anyone else but AMD knows how much improvement Mantle will bring, or if it is really that more efficient than NVAPI. If it is, Nvidia will not ne sitting and watching that unfold. They have a ton more money and manpower in the GPU department, so they can expand/improve the API. Again, I dont know how much, but same goes for Mantle. Will be interesting to see the tests, especially since you can switch from DX to Mantle so easily on the fly.

Time will tell I guess. It does look to be an interesting concept.

It has been stated running Mantle the 290X will slay the Dragon Titan in BF4....Sounds better than ridicule to me.
 

Rvenger

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Nothing is stopping Nvidia from "making their own mantle" but it would be a tough sell even though I'm sure they would see gains similar to what AMD is seeing with Mantle. While there are way too many posts with the sole purpose to put AMD/Mantle down, there were legit concerns too, for example comparisons to Glide to point out why it may go the same way.

Just from what we know so far it has a couple of things going for it to think it's fate will differ from Glide. GPU market is a duopoly now and the architecture that Mantle is made for will be exclusive on the 2 most lucrative platforms for at least 5 years, assuming that's the minimum lifespan for the upcoming consoles as well controlling roughly half the PC market. 3dfx didn't even remotely have such foothold. AMD does and with the reduction of the gaming market to basically the PC and 2 consoles, they are in position to take advantage of a dominant architecture. It's clear what they went for, starting with code writing for 1 GCN is writing for 3GCN. Mantle is supposed to reduce overhead and allow more freedom with coding and make porting to other platforms easier than ever. The final benefit is to the gamer in a more efficient and possibly better looking way. Another important part to pitch developers is easier porting to the PC, even if it continues to be a meager market, with less effort to consistently port to the PC dev houses may port more of their titles more often..

There will probably be a few that may ignore the Mantle, even without Microsoft/Sony involved. However, the (imminent) presence of GCN across (now is the right time to adopt it) biggest money makers, the appeal of more efficient work, enabling tools and easier PC market entry should, emphasize should be enough to get 5 major houses to get into. I just can't the notion that this is exactly what capable devs, the ones that matter have been asking for.

Before I start handing out the Kool-Aid, this interesting announcement quote caight my eye:
Sounds eerily similar to me. Another old Glide article here:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/3dfx-unveils-glide-30-2464752

Hopefully 2-3 capable dev houses adopt Mantle soon to get the ball rolling. The "partnership" between AMD and Crytek doesn't mean much since Crytek is partnered with everyone but it would be huge if they get on board next. Anyone launching cross platform titles is bound to give it a serious consideration at the least.


1) There are three GPU makers out there in the PC space. You forgot the one with the biggest marketshare (thoughnot the loudest marketing or best performance): Intel. It's a threeway, not a twoway. And look at the recent noise about their new driver plus GRID 2 optimizations. They're chasing the gaming market. It doesn't have to be the best performer to be worth remembering that there are people out there gaming with Intel GPU's.

2) To my eye, Mantle is like Glide in that the company that perceives itself to have dominance in GPU market share is trying to capitalize on that dominance by shutting the other people out of the "high performance" niche. High performance space is where the marketing for the lower end products happens; people hear the R9 290X is the best of the best, so the R7 260 sells better, etc. Mantle is about selling the high end AMD card as the only card capable of hitting the highest of the high end on the "benchmark" titles that AMD has been targeting for the last year with Gaming Evolved.

3) Some will argue that the market is different. Back in the day, DirectX was still really immature (even pre-Direct3d?) and OpenGL was still being developed. Glide came from that, bringing a heavily optimized subset of OpenGL to the masses to provide 3d gaming at its infancy. While true there were lots of other companies and lots of other specialized API's for all these different cards, the problem was not that developers had to code for all these API's. It was that they didn't. People are truly not remembering things very well here.

Glide was by and large the only one that gained any traction in the market besides eventually DirectX and OpenGL. The others had minor gains that led nowhere, each company eventually getting behind DirectX because Glide just had too much marketshare and led to such an impressive performance advantage for any game that used Glide. This was especially true for any game that then tried to code in Direct3D afterward.

But it was somewhat fair that Glide gained such traction because 3dfx was by and large the company that truly brought 3d gaming to PC. That Glide took preeminence was a result of the fact that 3dfx did the work to get developers making 3d games and as such Glide was prioritized for a while. Still, the market preferred having a standard with one code path than having multiple ones to support. Even two was too many.

4) That brings us to Mantle and DirectX/OpenGL. Two is too many codepaths. You speak of porting from Xbone/PS4 to PC like it's nothing, but it is not nothing. Even if the exact same code from Xbone low-level to Mantle could work, it would not be an inconsequential amount of money, time, or support to maintain a second, separate codepath for a new API. Sure, let's say hypothetically it's COMPLETELY identical to the Xbone's low level API (this is speculative and unlikely as "completely identical" seems iffy), you'd still have to code for PC optimizations, right? I mean, lots of talk about Mantle implies that GCN 2.0 is the same as GCN 1.0, that the Xbone version of the game is as good as the PC version is going to be (resolution? better textures? farther draw distance? faster framerate?) with no customization or improvements.

Somehow, I doubt that EVERY self-respecting PC gamer is going to take an untouched, unimproved port of Battlefield 4 running at the Xbone's resolution of 720p/1080p and be content with that. Certainly, PC gamers are going to want more. That doesn't just magically appear after you code for Mantle. You've got to code even more for Mantle to make that happen and work well. Who works on the Mantle code? The same guy working on Direct3d for PC? Or the guy working on the Xbone low level API? What if the PC version gets a new feature, does the Mantle version get it? So the PC version guy does it, right?

What if the low level Xbone API gets further optimized? I guess now the Xbone API guy goes in and alters Mantle, but what if that breaks some of the PC-specific code in Mantle for the PC version of Battlefield 4 Mantle? Who fixes what? Clearly, money is invested to maintain different parts of the code and since Mantle is a whole new API, you have to maintain it somehow. At best, a developer might have a whole other group handling Mantle smoothing and at worst you'll have the same overworked employee doing both Direct3D and Mantle, splitting his time between them both rather than just plain optimizing Direct3d alone.

5) This brings us back to the past and Glide. Even developers who favored Glide in a Glide vs Direct3d vs OpenGl threeway were forced to eventually code to the standards. In due course, it became clear that holding such a place of dominance with Glide had led 3dfx to avoid changes that might imperil their dominance-assuring technology, Glide. But those changes led to inferior technical leaps when they long, long clung to ideas for 3d tech that were far behind the curve. Developers who'd long stayed with Glide eventually realized they had to move to DirectX or OpenGL to keep up with the changing pace.

Suddenly, 3dfx's reliance on Glide and their reluctance to leave it behind had led to them being way, way behind in technical design. In a panic, they then made a series of boneheaded business decisions that ended them abruptly.

But the lesson to be learned is still that letting one house control an API in the interests of "superior performance" leads to stagnation and a reliance on that specialized API to maintain their lead and eventually to keep up.

Regardless, that matters little. Glide made sense not because other companies had their own API's back then, but because Direct3d and OpenGL were not ready when it first showed up. Glide was a way of bringing OpenGL into the modern before it was done. That's the only reason it existed.

Mantle is not about bringing 3d to gaming like Glide was. In this way, AMD is worse than 3dfx. AMD wants to own the market, plain and simple. They don't want to spend obscene amounts of money maintaining a pace with companies that are far richer than them: nVidia and Intel. They know they will lose that war eventually as they'll run out of money long before they get there. It's cheaper to give MS and Sony good deals on next gen hardware, then use that as a way to win over more developers to their own specialized API across all platforms. It's clever, if disastrous in the long term since nVidia and Intel will respond in kind. Any money saved by a developer/publisher by "just coding" for Mantle could be more than compensated by either nVidia or Intel, both of whom have a lot more money than AMD.

That's assuming any developer would want to support two API's.

So they want to change the rules of the game. They get to spend less and still be far ahead. Plus, they can finally have a chance of having games and PC's use HUMA, which was heretofore unlikely when nVidia and Intel have little reason to support it. But Mantle sidesteps that entirely, for the first time offering a compelling reason for gamers to buy into an all-AMD PC. Again, it's a clever workaround to the fact that Intel and nVidia refuse to work with them, plus MS is throwing their hands up about PC gaming in general.

6) Direct3d and OpenGL were a response to multiple API's. Everyone who talks about Mantle acts like nVidia and Intel couldn't make their own, initiating an API war. If you think Intel doing it is a joke, you really need to look at how much money that company is sitting on and how many GPU's it's selling per year. Do you look forward to a day when publishers are outright paid to focus only on the Intel GPU codepath, leaving the Direct3d one to be the "safemode?" Or unsupported? Perhaps nonexistent? How many gamers right now with a discrete GPU made by nVidia or AMD have an Intel GPU on their CPU, waiting for its day? Lying in wait, like sleeper agents.

AMD is doing a clever move with Mantle, but if you think developers/publishers aren't going to support other GPU vendors because Mantle's so much easier, you really need to remember that the 360 version of games were often the first version and that had AMD hardware for eight years now. How many of those AMD-first games were then ported over to nVidia hardware and suddenly became TWIMTBP'ed? It was only in the last year-ish that Gaming Evolved actually evolved into something worthwhile and it wasn't because of b/c with the AMD GPU in the 360 (or Wii). It was because money talks. Suddenly, these companies had deals for thousands and thousands of licenses of games from these companies. AMD paid them money and they made Gaming Evolved for AMD.

So what makes you think that the pittance of savings of some code that Mantle offers will be more tempting than the truckloads of money Intel or nVidia could hypothetically offer? It may be easy to forget AMD is in extreme financial straits, but there's still a lot of talk about them going out of business and even if that is (somewhat) overblown, they don't have a ton of money to push Mantle with.

And their competitors do.

7) But all that comes back to the obvious. If money is not a factor (because AMD's competitors are far richer) in AMD's favor, then ease of use and performance improvement would have to be incredible to be compelling to developers to use a SECOND additional API for PC gaming than the seemingly required DirectX/OpenGL one.

Even if a developer went out of his way to use Mantle for the next gen consoles (or if Xbone's low level API were based on Mantle), that doesn't mean they'd go to the trouble of applying that to PC gaming. "Why wouldn't they, it's easy as pie?" It's not. It's really not. Anyone who says that doesn't get what it takes to make a game.

More than that, the performance improvement would have to be incredible to warrant such an investment for any developer, which almost assuredly locks out most developers who just want compatibility. Of the select few who are making high end niche benchmark titles, you've got some that are nVidia-friendly and some that are mercs, up to the highest bidder. Money, again, speaks louder. If nVidia senses a real threat on its homefront, nVidia will turn around and start spraying money like it's confetti.

So the market that will use Mantle remains small. It may be (somewhat) easier to code to from the next gen consoles, but it's still a second API. It's not the primary one, not like Glide was. The other API's are mature, stable, works with everything. Not like when Glide was king. And games are already in the stable with DirectX.

AMD has to make a case for why anyone should chase after such a small percentage of the market as AMD represents. Hell, even their own APU's won't support Mantle by and large yet. That's the one area where Mantle makes more sense since it could be used to create PS4/Xbone-like optimized games for low end PC hardware...

8) AMD wants Mantle for the same reasons that 3dfx clung to Glide, but Mantle is going to fail for all the reasons 3dfx was supplanted by DirectX. Not because Glide suffered for all the alternate API's. In most cases, it won out because it was the first and rather than deal with the chaos, developers just went with the most mature (Glide). No, Glide just didn't keep up with the times and maintaining its features kept 3dfx from evolving.

That's what's going to happen to AMD if they aren't very, very cautious because when you code games "to the metal," then you can't really change much about the layout of said metal or things start breaking.

9) Mantle is a move of desperation by a company that doesn't see itself changing much in the way of its technology over the next ten years. It's clever and it's going to send some shudders through the PC gaming space, but in the end I think something like Valve's Steambox based on Linux will have more impact on finally freeing us of the tyranny of an OS run by a company obsessed with gaming consoles and not PC gaming.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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What a lot of nonsense.
This business is about maximizing the profit on consoles and pc where it matters. Software- Games.
Mantle does that by lowering cost. Effectively and concentrating development where it matters ; content.
Its not about glide 3dfx amd or nv or lot of other nerd nonsense. Its about profit on the huge huge gaming market.
Mantle is comming, - why cant you just accept it?. Nv is going to look worse. They lower prices amd raises theirs. Competition is restored. Thats how it always works. Everything is back at normal there is just a change of profit between the two gfx companies.
 

blackened23

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Jul 26, 2011
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5) This brings us back to the past and Glide. Even developers who favored Glide in a Glide vs Direct3d vs OpenGl threeway were forced to eventually code to the standards. In due course, it became clear that holding such a place of dominance with Glide had led 3dfx to avoid changes that might imperil their dominance-assuring technology, Glide. But those changes led to inferior technical leaps when they long, long clung to ideas for 3d tech that were far behind the curve. Developers who'd long stayed with Glide eventually realized they had to move to DirectX or OpenGL to keep up with the changing pace.

Eh? There was one game that used OpenGL, that one game being Quake. Direct3D did not exist. So, were you around circa 1995? Let me explain what the situation was then, having remembered:

3dfx is a stupid comparison because glide existed in a world WITHOUT direct3d. If anyone here was around back in those days, there were various 3d chips such as PowerVR, 3dfx voodoo, S3 virge, rendition verite - among others - and they all had propritary APIs. There was no "glide vs direct3d". It was proprietary 1 vs proprietary 2 vs proprietary 3 vs proprietary 4 so this comparison is garbage. There is DirectX now. If you don't get Mantle, you get DirectX. This isn't the wild wild west of 1996 where there were no standards, where if you choose the wrong 3d chip (if you had a verite, for example) that there was a real potential for not getting 3d acceleration in most of your games. Now? Everyone gets DirectX. Anyone comparing this to glide probably wasn't around back then because Glide existed in a world without DirectX. In a world with 10 proprietary APIs. That is why D3D made sense then. Again, there was never a "glide vs DirectX". It was glide or nothing. Period. This is also aside from the fact that D3D was garbage in the initial versions - there was real talk that OpenGL would be the path going forward - but only one game used it and whatever games that licensed the Quake engine (Hexen, Heretic II, etc). None of the other architectures (aside from 3dfx) never picked up steam and glide was the most popular. So pretty much the Rendition Verite got vQuake but nothing else used the rendition chip in all reality - so if you didn't use glide, you were screwed. That is far from the case now where EVERYONE gets DirectX.

So, if BF4 uses mantle:

BF4 Mantle, AMD user gets 3d acceleration
BF4 Nvidia, nvidia user gets 3d acceletation
Bf4, EVERYONE GETS 3D ACCELERATION

This was the 1996 situation

Tomb Raider 1: 3dfx user must use software rendering
Tomb Raider 1: PowerVR user gets 3d rendering
Direct 3D : Did not exist
Tomb Raider 1: 1 chip out of 10 gets 3d ACCELERATION

This is NOT The same situation.
 
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Kenmitch

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Oct 10, 1999
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What a lot of nonsense.
This business is about maximizing the profit on consoles and pc where it matters. Software- Games.
Mantle does that by lowering cost. Effectively and concentrating development where it matters ; content.
Its not about glide 3dfx amd or nv or lot of other nerd nonsense. Its about profit on the huge huge gaming market.
Mantle is comming, - why cant you just accept it?. Nv is going to look worse. They lower prices amd raises theirs. Competition is restored. Thats how it always works. Everything is back at normal there is just a change of profit between the two gfx companies.

AMD's niche Mantle isn't fare tho as it'll increase performance unlike nvidas niche PhysX....Why would you promote that?

Maybe that's the issue with those who appose it. Higher graphical detail without a performance hit....Why would a person be against it.

It's OK to promote PhysX as a added feature of buying the brand, along with allowing the intentional disabling of the feature on a card that was purchased when a AMD gpu is detected....Go figure!

AMD should harness the power of GCN to it's fullest potential. Some how this has turned into exploiting it's console hardware for some reason or another.

Mantle in the end will only allow a person to run higher graphical details/settings or resolutions than otherwise possible on their current hardware.

Not like it's gonna turn off fog, smoke, or make papers blow around the place, etc.

The hostility towards Mantle is from those who want AMD to fail.

No need to fight about something we haven't seen in action yet. Looking forward to the demos of Mantle in action we should see next month.
 

Kenmitch

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Oct 10, 1999
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You're either making this up or weren't around then. There was one game that used OpenGL, that one game being Quake. Direct3D did not exist. So, were you around circa 1995? Guess not. Let me explain what the situation was then, having remembered:

3dfx is a stupid comparison because glide existed in a world WITHOUT direct3d. If anyone here was around back in those days, there were various 3d chips such as PowerVR, 3dfx voodoo, S3 virge, rendition verite - among others - and they all had propritary APIs. There was no "glide vs direct3d". It was proprietary 1 vs proprietary 2 vs proprietary 3 vs proprietary 4 so this comparison is garbage. There is DirectX now. If you don't get Mantle, you get DirectX. This isn't the wild wild west of 1996 where there were no standards, where if you choose the wrong 3d chip (if you had a verite, for example) that there was a real potential for not getting 3d acceleration in most of your games. Now? Everyone gets DirectX. Anyone comparing this to glide probably wasn't around back then because Glide existed in a world without DirectX. In a world with 10 proprietary APIs. That is why D3D made sense then. Again, there was never a "glide vs DirectX". It was glide or nothing. Period. Well, I say nothing, but the other architectures never picked up steam and glide was the most popular. So pretty much the Rendition Verite got vQuake but nothing else used the rendition chip in all reality - so if you didn't use glide, you were screwed. That is far from the case now where EVERYONE gets DirectX.

So, if BF4 uses mantle:

BF4 Mantle, AMD user gets 3d acceleration
BF4 Nvidia, nvidia user gets 3d acceletation
Bf4, EVERYONE GETS 3D ACCELERATION

This was the 1996 situation

Tomb Raider 1: 3dfx user must use software rendering
Tomb Raider 1: PowerVR user gets 3d rendering
Direct 3D : Did not exist
Tomb Raider 1: 1 chip out of 10 gets 3d ACCELERATION

This is NOT The same situation.

Anybody who says Glide wasn't the bomb back in the day wasn't even born or is just supporting the pack!

It was the Shitz and made a night and day difference!
 

blackened23

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Jul 26, 2011
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Anybody who says Glide wasn't the bomb back in the day wasn't even born or is just supporting the pack!

It was the Shitz and made a night and day difference!

For sure. Quake was the reason I bought the Voodoo I, it was an amazing card. I want to say I played GLQuake at 1024x768 and it was an amazing experience. I even had a 17" CRT back then which actually was a luxury and expensive item back then - just for GLquake. I'm pretty sure I played Quake MP (Netquake/quakeworld) far more than any game before or since. But, the main point is - comparing Mantle to Glide is a hilariously stupid comparison, the situation and times are far different now. Glide was the reason that MS decided to actually put some effort into D3D - segregation and lock was a very REAL problem back then because there was no "unified" API for anyone to use. Most end-users with "3d accelerators" could not even use them in most games and had to rely on software rendering (which looked horrible..) - I had one of those PowerVR chips early on and the situation was pretty hilarious. Nothing used PowerVR, you had to use software rendering in practically everything besides Tomb Raider. And with the other APIs, only Quake engine games used OpenGL, so MS focused hard on D3D and eventually made it usable - although D3D was garbage initially. For 2 years or so, the situation was YOU HAD TO USE GLIDE or you didn't get jack for 3d acceleration. Then, D3D entered the picture because of the segregation issue.

This isn't the same situation. Everyone gets 3d acceleration, therefore any comparison of Mantle and Glide is pretty dumb: nvidia user gets 3d acceleration, AMD user gets 3d acceleration with Mantle. In 1996 it would have been: 3dfx user gets 3d acceleration, Rendition verite user gets absolutely nothing.
 
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krumme

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Oct 9, 2009
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I understand why some is sceptical about mantle or whatever proprietary api someone promotes. This is not about that issue.

But comparing it back to the 3dfx days is an insult to all business sense. The situation was excactly completely different then.

Is Mantle good business for Sony. Yes it is.
Is Mantle good for ea. Yes it is.

They will sell their games whoever is selling gfx cards or apu.and they BOTH want games to sell. They dont want all that cross platform mess. They want the profit in the gaming industry to raise. The hardware is peanuts and should just work and cost as little as possible. Mantle is a small brick in that game. But compared to mantle amd and nv is just dust.

The industry is changing. And us hardware nerds is in a minor segment in the great revenue and especially profit games command. Look at gta5 and bf4. Its crazy.
 

BoFox

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What if the low level Xbone API gets further optimized? I guess now the Xbone API guy goes in and alters Mantle, but what if that breaks some of the PC-specific code in Mantle for the PC version of Battlefield 4 Mantle? Who fixes what? Clearly, money is invested to maintain different parts of the code and since Mantle is a whole new API, you have to maintain it somehow. At best, a developer might have a whole other group handling Mantle smoothing and at worst you'll have the same overworked employee doing both Direct3D and Mantle, splitting his time between them both rather than just plain optimizing Direct3d alone.
...

First of all, Nvidia does not have THAT much money, like you make it sound. If they did, GPU-accelerated PhysX would be in at least a dozen games a year - yet they have not been able to do more than a handful select few games a year for many years since snatching up Ageia when Ageia was only a baby. Think about how much money Ageia had to get those developers (GRAW1,2, Cellfactor, Warmonger, UT3 levels, etc..) coding for PhsyX before Nvidia bought Ageia - while ever since, Nvidia has hardly done anything more than Ageia ever did over the years.

Then you use Intel as a threat. Look at how much money failed to make "Itanic" a true success whereas Athlon 64 pried the CPU market out of Intel's hands despite their infamously known strong-arm business tactics (with Dell, etc.). It's because of practically feasible PERFORMANCE.

If that is what Mantle can bring us, then AMD will reap the rewards. This is what got Nvidia far in the first place, with Geforce 1 taking over. Then the 9700 Pro took over, and ATI boosted like crazy.

About there being 2 API's to program for - that's what devs had to do for years with Xbox360, PS3, and the PC. They are quite used to it. Now that Mantle is the low-level API for XBone, and presumably for PS4 too - with GCN being the basis of Mantle (like CUDA being the basis of NV's G80+ architectures) the developers have one less "primarily distinct" API to worry about with the new console generation of games (even after accounting for PC's DirectX and PC Mantle). Microsoft is hoping that devs will simply code to DX11 or even DX11.2 for XBone, but with Mantle being the ideal for BOTH PS4 and XBone (while Nvidia's current generation does not support DX11.2 let alone DX11.1), many devs would likely code for Mantle first and foremost for serious AAA titles.

That's what devs have been doing for years for later-gen PS360 games that looked several times better than the earlier games that launched for these consoles. They took "coding to the metal" very seriously, regardless. It's not like as if they are all bullheaded lazy bunches, bribed by Microsoft paying Bethesda Studios $2 million to make Skyrim an Xbox360 exclusive, for example. Yes, money is name of the game, and in that game, Microsoft surely did try to bribe Bethesda with a cool sum of money. Moral of the story is, many devs did way better than that, rather than letting their souls be sold in a flash. Look at how long and hard they worked towards optimizing the PC version through patches over the years out of goodwill. The true AAA titles require truly great developers, who take everything seriously, including optimization for hardware. The same could be said for quality movies - they require quality in everything.

Mantle should give us that last 20% "extra" in quality that serious developers would no doubt appreciate. A console API is what the developers spend years trying to learn, so you can be sure that they will learn the "metal similarities" between PS4 and XBone very very well over the years. Even if the API programming for these consoles becomes more sophisticated over the years, one given is that the future Radeons will still have something in common: fully backward-compatible GCN architecture. The devs would know the architecture so well that it would be far easier to code a mantle version for the PC as well.

Of course, AMD will have to help these devs learn more about optimizing for PC Mantle, but it's not like as if these devs are going to remain clueless. Some things might be rather simple, like allowing for 9x as many draw calls by reducing a well-known DX11 overhead. Memory management could be rather straightforward too, with certain codes of optimization that AMD and the PC game makers can easily be familiar with.

Yes, Mantle is a whole new API for now, but coding to GCN metal will quickly become something as familiar as the back of their own hands.
 

mindbomb

Senior member
May 30, 2013
363
0
0
this nvapi story is pretty sketchy. He probably meant he used nvapi as a development tool, not as an implemented alternative to dx11 like mantle.
 
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BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
689
0
0
For sure. Quake was the reason I bought the Voodoo I, it was an amazing card. I want to say I played GLQuake at 1024x768 and it was an amazing experience. I even had a 17" CRT back then which actually was a luxury and expensive item back then - just for GLquake. I'm pretty sure I played Quake MP (Netquake/quakeworld) far more than any game before or since. But, the main point is - comparing Mantle to Glide is a hilariously stupid comparison, the situation and times are far different now. Glide was the reason that MS decided to actually put some effort into D3D - segregation and lock was a very REAL problem back then because there was no "unified" API for anyone to use. Most end-users with "3d accelerators" could not even use them in most games and had to rely on software rendering (which looked horrible..) - I had one of those PowerVR chips early on and the situation was pretty hilarious. Nothing used PowerVR, you had to use software rendering in practically everything besides Tomb Raider. And with the other APIs, only Quake engine games used OpenGL, so MS focused hard on D3D and eventually made it usable - although D3D was garbage initially. For 2 years or so, the situation was YOU HAD TO USE GLIDE or you didn't get jack for 3d acceleration. Then, D3D entered the picture because of the segregation issue.

Too bad 3Dfx cards (and Glide) only supported 16-bit color. Starting with Voodoo3 (IIRC), 3dfx tried to call it "22-bit" color, with certain dithering optimizations or something like that, but we weren't fooled. Nvidia marketed their 32-bit color very wisely, although performance sucked with TNT 1. The same went for ATI's buggy Rage 128 with 32MB VRAM. TNT 2 Ultra was much faster - the first real "win" over Voodoo3 that did so much damage to 3dfx that it was nearly irreversible. OpenGL was really taking off at that time with Quake 2-engine games and Quake 3, and the developers were lambasting 16-bit color all over the internet. Even Carmack was trying to talk up 64-bit color...

By the time Geforce 1 came, Voodoo5 was too little, too late. Bye bye 3dfx. Without 3dfx, the devs gave up on glide. DX7 quickly became the new standard. New gamers didn't care about the older glide games, while the increasingly powerful Geforce cards were able to handle them with glide wrappers.

If 3Dfx were willing to support 32-bit with Voodoo3, the entire history of GPU business could have been completely different. Glide would then be kept alive with 32-bit color, as it was the primary reason for the Nvidia movement at that time. Stubborn 3dfx kept on saying that "FPS is king", something like "60 fps with 16-bit color makes 30 fps with 32-bit color unnecessary and not needed"... ....
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
It's not like nvidia is taking this lying down either - they have put an increased focus on the PC this year, and it's obvious - they have more physx titles in development this year than they have in the prior two as far as I can tell. I only remember one title in 2011 having substantial physx effects. Now? There are many more.

So AMD may have 3-4 titles with Mantle next year. Even without a direct to the metal API, nvidia is still doing what they do on the PC and they will leverage their unique technologies (Physx, TXAA) in various games to create value. AMD is creating brand value with Mantle. Nvidia is creating brand value with physx and TXAA.

This creates more competition and each respective company (nvidia, AMD) to push their technologies hard on developers. Who wins? We do, the consumers. Mantle will have a few titles from the outset but it isn't going to change the game scene, so to speak. Nvidia will still do the things they excel at, and consumers will reap the benefits.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Too bad 3Dfx cards (and Glide) only supported 16-bit color. Starting with Voodoo3 (IIRC), 3dfx tried to call it "22-bit" color, with certain dithering optimizations or something like that, but we weren't fooled. Nvidia marketed their 32-bit color very wisely, although performance sucked with TNT 1. The same went for ATI's buggy Rage 128 with 32MB VRAM. TNT 2 Ultra was much faster - the first real "win" over Voodoo3 that did so much damage to 3dfx that it was nearly irreversible. OpenGL was really taking off at that time with Quake 2-engine games and Quake 3, and the developers were lambasting 16-bit color all over the internet. Even Carmack was trying to talk up 64-bit color...

By the time Geforce 1 came, Voodoo5 was too little, too late. Bye bye 3dfx. Without 3dfx, the devs gave up on glide. DX7 quickly became the new standard. New gamers didn't care about the older glide games, while the increasingly powerful Geforce cards were able to handle them with glide wrappers.

If 3Dfx were willing to support 32-bit with Voodoo3, the entire history of GPU business could have been completely different. Glide would then be kept alive with 32-bit color, as it was the primary reason for the Nvidia movement at that time. Stubborn 3dfx kept on saying that "FPS is king", something like "60 fps with 16-bit color makes 30 fps with 32-bit color unnecessary and not needed"... ....

Well, what you're saying is entirely besides my point, and i'm not sure why you're telling me this? Eh? I'm comparing the API situation of 1995-1996 to the current one, so you're arguing a tangent. That being said: I don't disagree. I bought a voodoo 1 because it was a great product. I bought a voodoo 2 as well which was also awesome - the competing product IIRC was Riva 128 which actually had far worse image quality than the Voodoo II. By the time Riva 128 rolled around, things got interesting, and when Riva TNT hit that was my first nvidia product. Riva TNT was nvidia's first "knockout" product - it beat 3dfx' competing products in every metric including performance and image quality. It was a milestone for nvidia IMHO.

Regarding V3, Voodoo 3 was also beyond the scope of my point: I was referring to the API situation when 3d accelerators first hit the scene (~1996), obviously Voodoo 3 was released long after when the API situation had settled down significantly (around that time, D3D started to not suck and was used in games). I never bought a V3 because it really wasn't a great product IMHO - the Riva TNT/TNT2 was a better product. In fact, starting with V3 I largely viewed 3dfx as being irrelevant - and then they ended up buying STB which I thought was a bad move. History proved that it was indeed a bad move when they went out of business. Anyway, my point was: in 1996? If you wanted 3d acceleration YOU WANTED A 3DFX voodoo I. As well, in the early days of 3d acceleration there was no "glide vs D3D situation". It was proprietary vs proprietary vs proprietary. That was my main point.

The main thing is i'm talking about the early days. The wild wild west days. When 3dfx first hit the scene - if you around then, you know that 3dfx was the only game in town for a very long time; the Voodoo I was an absolutely incredible product. Tons of people bought it for GLquake alone. But if you had a competing product such as the PowerVR, most of those guys were out of luck because of the API situation. Things are different now. EVERYONE gets 3d acceleration.
 
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BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
689
0
0
Well, what you're saying is entirely besides my point, and i'm not sure why you're telling me this? Eh? I'm comparing the API situation of 1995-1996 to the current one, so you're arguing a tangent. That being said: I don't disagree. I bought a voodoo 1 because it was a great product. I bought a voodoo 2 as well which was also awesome - the competing product IIRC was Riva 128 which actually had far worse image quality than the Voodoo II. By the time Riva 128 rolled around, things got interesting, and when Riva TNT hit that was my first nvidia product. Riva TNT was nvidia's first "knockout" product - it beat 3dfx' competing products in every metric including performance and image quality. It was a milestone for nvidia IMHO.

First of all, Voodoo 3 is beyond the scope of my point: I was referring to the API situation when 3d accelerators first hit the scene, obviously Voodoo 3 was released long after when the API situation had settled down significantly (around that time, D3D started to not suck and was used in games). I never bought a V3 because it really wasn't a great product IMHO - the Riva TNT/TNT2 was a better product. In fact, starting with V3 I largely viewed 3dfx as being irrelevant - and then they ended up buying STB which I thought was a bad move. History proved that it was indeed a bad move when they went out of business. Anyway, my point was: in 1996? If you wanted 3d acceleration YOU WANTED A 3DFX voodoo I. As well, in the early days of 3d acceleration there was no "glide vs D3D situation". It was proprietary vs proprietary vs proprietary. That was my main point.

The main thing is i'm talking about the early days. The wild wild west days. When 3dfx first hit the scene - if you around then, you know that 3dfx was the only game in town for a very long time; the Voodoo I was an absolutely incredible product. Tons of people bought it for GLquake alone. But if you had a competing product such as the PowerVR, most of those guys were out of luck because of the API situation. Things are different now. EVERYONE gets 3d acceleration.

Dude, it was not an argument, just a nostalgic tangent for my own pleasure..

I wasn't trying to diminish your point. It's not like as if this discussion is strictly non-tangential, with a professor there to slap us on the wrist if we ever made one odd comment that was not 100% exactly ON-topic.

Your point stands, don't worry.. I had the original TNT too, but quite frankly, the performance just SUCKED with 32-bit. That's where 3Dfx was right, that 60fps couldn't be done with 32-bit yet. But they SHOULDA just supported 32-bit. See, TNT 2 Ultra was just about as fast as Voodoo 3 overall (a bit faster with OpenGL) using 16-bit color, but that was enough to make TNT 2 Ultra appear as an overall "winner" just because of 32-bit color support (despite Glide incompatibility with a vast library of 1997-1999 games). I'm telling you, Nvidia had this magical sling-shot past 3dfx with TNT 2 Ultra thanks to 32-bit (which also earned a lot of attention to TNT 1 in addition to it having good bug-free drivers for most other games).

Anyway, I forgot what else to say, that was more on-topic... typing takes up so much time, and I just lose my thought!!
 
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blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
If there's a video card hall of fame, Riva TNT definitely deserves a spot in there somewhere. I remember switching to that from 3dfx and I didn't get the lined dithering and the IQ was better. (I kept the V2 in for glide games, IIRC)

*thinks* I want to say one of my most memorable builds of all time was a Celeron 300A overclocked to 450mhz and a Riva TNT. That was an awesome system. My memory is kinda sketchy from that time frame, but I think it was my go to machine for Quake II's release. Those were great times for PC gaming - it wasn't like now where all games were based on console ports - all of the best PC games were PC only, and tons of PC exclusives. Definitely the golden era of PC gaming IMHO!
 
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BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
689
0
0
I did have Voodoo2 SLI and Voodoo3 3000 for my $89 Celeron 300A oc'ed to 464 MHz before I got Riva TNT for my girlfriend's rig, so I guess I was spoiled. 32-bit did feel sluggish with some of the newer games at that time (1999). I had to return Rage 128 to CompUSA because of buggy-like-hell drivers for many games!! Then I upgraded to Voodoo3 3500. The 16-bit color didn't bother me too much with games like Half Life 1 games (being so fluid at 1024x768 minimum), etc.. while I was enjoying stellar Glide performance for many other games. I mean, back then the graphics were so basic and horrible - look at the polygons and texture quality!! 16-bit color wasn't too bad for me until Quake 3, but my absolute favorites were still Glide (UT '99, etc..). Then I got Voodoo5 5500 and tried to hold off as long as possible until I had to move on less than 2 years later when Geforce 4 Ti 4200 was already FOUR times as fast for cheap.

It's not like nvidia is taking this lying down either - they have put an increased focus on the PC this year, and it's obvious - they have more physx titles in development this year than they have in the prior two as far as I can tell. I only remember one title in 2011 having substantial physx effects. Now? There are many more.

So AMD may have 3-4 titles with Mantle next year. Even without a direct to the metal API, nvidia is still doing what they do on the PC and they will leverage their unique technologies (Physx, TXAA) in various games to create value. AMD is creating brand value with Mantle. Nvidia is creating brand value with physx and TXAA.

This creates more competition and each respective company (nvidia, AMD) to push their technologies hard on developers. Who wins? We do, the consumers. Mantle will have a few titles from the outset but it isn't going to change the game scene, so to speak. Nvidia will still do the things they excel at, and consumers will reap the benefits.

Yeah, there might only be a few Mantle games at first, but if AMD works closely with devs over the years, there could be many many more.... it's the AAA games that matter, and these serious developers would probably be happy to work with AMD on the PC side. I don't care about the quantity - as long as there is like a dozen A-quality Mantle games next year, and as long as AMD makes it a priority while keeping up with everything else as usual.
 
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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,875
1,530
136
As VulgarDisplay noted, per AT's article on Mantle, the XB1's lower-level API is Mantle. You make the game with Mantle API on XB1 and then port it to PC with much of the same code intact. That's where you get the optimization for PC hardware, albeit for GCN hardware only. In theory it should make for a much more optimized console-to-PC port assuming Mantle is actually faster than DX port. Of course if games are made on the PC first and then ported to the console, then this wouldn't help much unless the PC developer makes the original game with Mantle API as well (such as the case with BF4). But if XB1's lower level API is mantle, coding a PC game in Mantle would make porting from PC to console easier too. In both cases even if you port console to PC or PC to console, you transfer the code since Mantle can be used for both.

That whould not have licensing issues? i doubt that Sony and Microsoft come to an agreement to have compatible APIs, and i even more doubt they will allow AMD to bring a compatible one to pc... also with esram on the xbox i think its difficult to share low level optimisations, its not the same. Bah its aready not the same if hUMA is there or not.
And if true, i think there is a higher chance that it will allow easier pc to console ports, we really arent much CPU constrained on desktop, im yet to fully use my 2500K and Planet Explores i think its the first game i ever see to use OpenCL for parallel processing.

Also if the API is fine tuned to console "7850" as im fully expecting, the improvements may not be so good on others cards.
 
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BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
689
0
0
Also if the API is fine tuned to console "7850" as im fully expecting, the improvements may not be so good on others cards.

Why not? Faster GPUs handle the task faster, like usual - unless there is a bottleneck somewhere. DX7 badly bottlenecked Half Life 1 and Unreal Tournament ('99), while OpenGL scaled like a wonder for all of the newer GPU's that came out afterwards.

AMD would be the one to know this the best, so AMD would need to make sure the Mantle drivers are up to par for "faster-than-7850" cards (while working closely with the devs).
 
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