The AMD Mantle Thread

[Grooveriding]

So, after the BF4 Mantle patch comes and the results are in, will people still argue about Mantle? If its sucks, will the issue be settled? If it kicks epic ass, will the issue be settled?

Not a chance. If Mantle delivers 20% faster FPS in Battlefield 4, making a 7970 as good as a 780ti it will be as much of a nightmare on these forums as if it gives only 2% more FPS and bombs out.

Either way the nvidia/AMD viral marketers, fanboys and self-appointed shills will have at it. :biggrin:

 

[bystander36]

Mantle obviously gets tons of traction from the devs. Otherwise you wouldnt be discussing here. I dont think you do it to protect your grand children from the evil mantle giving them the cute physx instead.

I don't even use Advanced PhysX, even when I have an Nvidia card, in the majority of games that support it. It's fluff that often hurts performance for an effect I can take or leave. Batman AA was about the only exception.

I'm not not keen on the idea of going back to multiple API's on games. I hope Mantle works, just not too well. If it only has a mild improvement, we probably won't see a bunch of different hardware specific API's.

If Mantle spawns a new API that works on all newer hardware, that would be fine too, although that seems unlikely.

Just because I have concerns with Mantle, doesn't mean I don't want AMD to succeed. I've bought as many AMD/ATI cards as Nvidia over the years. And the only thing I tried to do these last posts, was show how DX is needed, and Mantle is a bit different than PhysX.

Somehow it turned into something else.

 

[krumme]

If Mantle works well, but doesn't blow Nvidia out of the water, it can coexist without messing up the industry. But if Nvidia has to come up with its own API, all these same dev's agree, it would be a terrible thing.

In every scenario, DX or something similar, needs to exist.

Ofcource Johan wants amd to open mantle and nv to adapt it. Its in EA interests because that would strenghten their position compared to other devs and keep cost down.

But he is still supporting mantle no matter what because its good business for EA.

Swarm and fb3 is the two most advanced engines we have in their genre. And they are both mantle. Others will have to follow.

So Mantle is here.
Who believes the next fb4 will not have mantle or the next swarm not to be mantle?
Mantle is here to stay.

 

[The Alias]

Assuming you are serious here.

With PhysX, you are talking about a few settings. A few extra features that are even available to run on any system, they just run poorly on ones without an Nvidia GPU. When bugs are fixed, when the game is fine tuned, the majority of the fixes work for everyone. The dev's only have to focus on a single API.

With Mantle, you'll have two separate code paths. Two different API's. Their efforts have to be split. And if Mantle proves to be very successful, that will likely lead to more API's, and more split focus.

And even with PhysX's one API that works both and GPU's and CPU's, you still find the hard hitting PhysX that requires GPU PhysX isn't used often, because it is for one brand.

so the only difference is dev time, but the effect is a way better looking/feeling game . tradeoff accepted .

 

[frozentundra123456]

I'm a bit confused by all of what you're saying. Are you concerned Mantle will be so successful that this will fragment gaming and ultimately hurt gamers?

And yes the devs I've listed to that are actually using Mantle have been very positive, it is the game developers that asked for a Mantle like API in the first place, don't forget that. What devs have voiced the extreme concern regarding Mantle that you are?

Wow, someone using Mantle is going to say positive things about it! Would never have expected that.

 

[Skurge]

Former developer John Carmack and Tim Sweeney of Epic Games. Unreal Engine (Epic Games) is also the most often used multi platform engine, I should add - UE3 was used as the engine from around 70% of multi platform 360, PS3 and PC games if I remember correctly. UE4 will be the same. Sweeney actually seemed pretty hostile to the idea of Mantle. So I guess that fits under extreme concern.

The only devs i've seen praising Mantle were those paid to be on board by AMD. I mean, I don't have an issue with AMD Paying DICE. There's nothing wrong with that. But you have to look at it for what it is - let's not kid ourselves here. When AMD is paying you to use Mantle, you don't bite the hand that feeds.

If AMD is paying you 8 million bucks, you're not going to go badmouth Mantle in the press. It doesn't work that way. Again, I don't have an issue with AMD subsidizing costs. It's whatever. But it's also not like the devs don't have an interest in it - they're being paid by AMD. I thought this was more or less obvious, but maybe not.

The only Devs I've seen hostile to Mantle are the ones in nVidia's pocket. See how that works?

And if nVidia is paying Epic and Carmack whatever they are paying him, you won't expect them to praise mantle will you?

 

[blackened23]

The only Devs I've seen hostile to Mantle are the ones in nVidia's pocket. See how that works?

And if nVidia is paying Epic and Carmack whatever they are paying him, you won't expect them to praise mantle will you?

I wasn't aware that nvidia paid Carmack or Epic. It's also quite funny that Carmack is in nvidia's pocket, but he's working for oculus rift. So is nvidia paying Carmack for Occulus Rift development? I don't think so.

In any case, if nvidia is paying epic:

[citation required]

 

[Gloomy]

I hope Mantle blows Direct3D out of the water. It's all an Nvidia plot anyway, they're in on it. They want Direct3D gone so they can have a proper API to themselves on Android and to simplify porting. AMD benefits by locking Intel iGPUs out of the low end and equalizing the CPU landscape for gaming. Developers win by lowering the barrier of entry to PC gaming.

Think about it.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Wow, someone using Mantle is going to say positive things about it! Would never have expected that.

:hmm:

So let's explore the alternatives. Devs are using Mantle but hate it. Using it because they are being paid huge sums of cash. Using it because they are bored. Voicing excitement and positivity because they just, well feel like it. Games will never actually see any benefits, it's all smoke and mirrors. Thousands of lines of code that do nothing at all.

But devs enthusiastically embracing Mantle because they see it as necessary and needed step forward that they themselves asked for, most unlikely scenario. Did I get that right?

 

[bystander36]

so the only difference is dev time, but the effect is a way better looking/feeling game . tradeoff accepted .

That's the rub. Will it be a way better looking/feeling game?

You may end up more bugs, or the same quality with more performance. How much is yet to be determined, but based on BF4, it's certainly going to be less than 45%, based on their "up to 45% gains" slide.

If it does wind up greatly improved, then Nvidia will have to follow, further splitting focus. That's when things could bet messy. That is when Nvidia games will be focused on getting Nvidia cards to work well, and AMD cards suffer, and vice versa for AMD games.

The worst case scenario is we end up having to buy AMD cards for a reasonable performance on AMD sponsored games, and Nvidia cards for Nvidia sponsored games. In the best case, dev's support 3 API's and split focus on all 3, ending up smaller improvements, due to the split focus and more bugs.

 

[TerryMathews]

I just want to say, all this FUD is just that: FUD. There were no issues back when there were 3 APIs to support (D3D, OGL, or D3D with S3TC), and we did fine with two.

One graphics API has made Microsoft fat and stupid. A separate and competitive API will bring forward progress to the industry as a whole via motivating Microsoft. Just as AMD and ARM motivate Intel.

 

[bystander36]

I just want to say, all this FUD is just that: FUD. There were no issues back when there were 3 APIs to support (D3D, OGL, or D3D with S3TC), and we did fine with two.

One graphics API has made Microsoft fat and stupid. A separate and competitive API will bring forward progress to the industry as a whole via motivating Microsoft. Just as AMD and ARM motivate Intel.

D3D still competes with OGL. If MS was so stupid, wouldn't OGL have taken over?

And I don't have as fond of memories of 2+ API games. I recall a lot of bugs and crashes. I recall switching back and forth between API's depending on the game due to poor support for one or the other. Or even switching based on patch.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

So to sum this up, Star Swarm mantle demo is not being deployed till DICE launches their Mantle patch. Everything now depends on DICE. Wonderful.

 

[krumme]

I hope Mantle blows Direct3D out of the water. It's all an Nvidia plot anyway, they're in on it. They want Direct3D gone so they can have a proper API to themselves on Android and to simplify porting. AMD benefits by locking Intel iGPUs out of the low end and equalizing the CPU landscape for gaming. Developers win by lowering the barrier of entry to PC gaming.

Think about it.

Haha. Its actually not that crazy imho and its a possible scenario. Because looking at the silence of nv and intel after the mantle api bomb its obvious everyone have to rethink their strategy.

Another way of looking at it. What do you guys think nv or intel should do if you were in their position?
Not an easy answer imho. Any suggestions?

 

[bystander36]

Haha. Its actually not that crazy imho and its a possible scenario. Because looking at the silence of nv and intel after the mantle api bomb its obvious everyone have to rethink their strategy.

Another way of looking at it. What do you guys think nv or intel should do if you were in their position?
Not an easy answer imho. Any suggestions?

I wouldn't say or do anything until I saw Mantle and analyze what to do, but not publicly.

Best case for Nvidia and Intel, is Mantle doesn't live up to the hype. In which case, anything they said wouldn't help. If it does turn out great, then you know you have to go down the path of making an API for yourself, which you've already began analysis for it.

 

[The Alias]

That's the rub. Will it be a way better looking/feeling game?

You may end up more bugs, or the same quality with more performance. How much is yet to be determined, but based on BF4, it's certainly going to be less than 45%, based on their "up to 45% gains" slide.

If it does wind up greatly improved, then Nvidia will have to follow, further splitting focus. That's when things could bet messy. That is when Nvidia games will be focused on getting Nvidia cards to work well, and AMD cards suffer, and vice versa for AMD games.

The worst case scenario is we end up having to buy AMD cards for a reasonable performance on AMD sponsored games, and Nvidia cards for Nvidia sponsored games. In the best case, dev's support 3 API's and split focus on all 3, ending up smaller improvements, due to the split focus and more bugs.

I, personally, don't think your nvidia api theory has much merit, because Mantle only came about because AMD had secured the win on all three consoles; thus the porting to/from ps4 and maybe xb1(questionable) is a lot easier .

To be honest, that in and of itself makes it worth it for me, because pc is now getting it's second taste of having the developers' imaginations freed to make whatever games they want and not be constrained by bottlenecks, which should be great .

 

[Stuka87]

I just want to say, all this FUD is just that: FUD. There were no issues back when there were 3 APIs to support (D3D, OGL, or D3D with S3TC), and we did fine with two.

One graphics API has made Microsoft fat and stupid. A separate and competitive API will bring forward progress to the industry as a whole via motivating Microsoft. Just as AMD and ARM motivate Intel.

S3TC was not its own API.

If you want to go back to the time of three API's it would be when we had Glide, Direct3D, and OpenGL. Glide blew the other two out of the water in terms of performance. And this was because it was a "to the metal" API that only worked on 3dFX cards.

When Diablo 2 came out a 12MB Voodoo2 (In Glide mode) would run the game nearly twice as fast as a 32MB Radeon which was significantly faster from a raw hardware point of view. If you ran the Voodoo2 in Direct3D mode, its performance halved.

But until ATI and nVidia got a good foothold in the market, 3dFX had a near monopoly. And if it was not for 3dFX being so poorly managed, they most likely would have stayed in power.

 

[bystander36]

I, personally, don't think your nvidia api theory has much merit, because Mantle only came about because AMD had secured the win on all three consoles; thus the porting to/from ps4 and maybe xb1(questionable) is a lot easier .

To be honest, that in and of itself makes it worth it for me, because pc is now getting it's second taste of having the developers' imaginations freed to make whatever games they want and not be constrained by bottlenecks, which should be great .

What do you think Nvidia would do if Mantle actually delivered with all the hype? Ignore it?

 

[Skurge]

I wasn't aware that nvidia paid Carmack or Epic. It's also quite funny that Carmack is in nvidia's pocket, but he's working for oculus rift. So is nvidia paying Carmack for Occulus Rift development? I don't think so.

In any case, if nvidia is paying epic:

[citation required]

I don't see you citing any sources for AMD paying Dice, Nixxes, Robert Space Industries, Rebellion, Oxide and PopCap Games so I figured was ok to make baseless claims.

 

[The Alias]

What do you think Nvidia would do if Mantle actually delivered with all the hype? Ignore it?

they would have to do something that didn't have any sort of developer time involved, because, as I said, the only reason Amd's api even stands a true chance is because amd won all the designs; and nvidia doing something onchip would take a year or more to accomplish .

 

[OCGuy]

So any update other than "Q1" as to when we may see reviews?

 

[DamnedLife]

That's the rub. Will it be a way better looking/feeling game?

You may end up more bugs, or the same quality with more performance. How much is yet to be determined, but based on BF4, it's certainly going to be less than 45%, based on their "up to 45% gains" slide.

If it does wind up greatly improved, then Nvidia will have to follow, further splitting focus. That's when things could bet messy. That is when Nvidia games will be focused on getting Nvidia cards to work well, and AMD cards suffer, and vice versa for AMD games.

The worst case scenario is we end up having to buy AMD cards for a reasonable performance on AMD sponsored games, and Nvidia cards for Nvidia sponsored games. In the best case, dev's support 3 API's and split focus on all 3, ending up smaller improvements, due to the split focus and more bugs.

Stop FUD

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Let's do a little math here. If we have mantle, open gl, and direct we have 3 api's.

I mantle renders DX useless nvidia responds with their own api. Now we have mantle, nvidia's api, and whatever Intel comes up with for their igpus. 3 api's and no dependence on Microsoft for anything anymore. Seems like we all win in that scenario and still have 3 APIs to support.

This is not like the infancy of PC games there are 2 major players not 10.

 

[TerryMathews]

S3TC was not its own API.

I made that crystal clear. You quoted it, did you read it?

 

[3DVagabond]

Wow, someone using Mantle is going to say positive things about it! Would never have expected that.

You don't think it might be the other way around? They are using it because they think it's good, not they think it's good because they are using it.