The AMD Mantle Thread

Page 231 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
And it explains why mantle is preferred todya and not 10 years ago. Today we have a good handfull of engines as platform for most games unlike 10 hears ago where there was a magnitude more engines. As the work for creating an engine specializes and cost goes up the need and benefit of the extra control outweights the cost.

The change of api is primarily a result of the structural organization on the engine market with fewer enginess. Add newer gpu tech, more cores and newer methods for programmability.

Also, back in the day it was just Carmack that wrote the best engine and no one else even came close to his genius until the Unreal engine(in my gaming experience). That is why he used OGL and no one else did. Now, there are many brilliant engine developers with a handful of engines that everyone licenses like Krumme said.

There are not eleventy billion GPU makers all with their own APIs. There are basically only 3 and really only 2 that have any serious competition.

This isn't the wild west anymore where computers are this buggy mess of hardware that somehow has to be made to work together. I don't have to write my own config.sys files just to get a game to run. I don't have 10 step processes just to get a graphics card to be recognized from BIOS to Windows. Everyone is just a heck of a lot more knowledgeable and systems are much better designed. When you get to that stage the smart people want more control.

MS has failed to follow the hardware and future trends in gaming with DX. It was definitely time for someone to step up with something different IMO.
 

SimianR

Senior member
Mar 10, 2011
609
16
81
Is now the time to say I told you so?

How many people here are actually running i7 4960x? There are a lot of people running i5 4670k's though, which is a mid range cpu - results like those are much more important IMHO. A little early to be saying "I told you so" before any tech sites have done some proper testing. But regardless - why anyone would try to spin a performance gain whether its 1% or 60% as a negative is beyond me.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
I will say though that taken at face value it isn't the result I expected to see. When I have real FPS numbers from here and other sites I'll have a better idea of what advantages we get with it. I expected more benefit for the lower end though.
 

Venomous

Golden Member
Oct 18, 1999
1,180
0
76
I will say though that taken at face value it isn't the result I expected to see. When I have real FPS numbers from here and other sites I'll have a better idea of what advantages we get with it. I expected more benefit for the lower end though.

Well keep in mind, the optimizations will keep coming and so will the performance. Free performance is nothing to be negative about. I don't quite understand peoples views about wanting Mantle to fail. I guess if i paid $200 more for a video card that got a few fps more, i would be pissed. But, shame on them, for making a stupid decision anyhow.. E-peens get you no where.
 

kane15

Junior Member
Jan 30, 2014
20
0
0
how are people doing these benchmarks when the drivers are not even out yet? also im still expecting alot being cpu bottle necked
 

Slomo4shO

Senior member
Nov 17, 2008
586
0
71
I expected more benefit for the lower end though.

Why is that? The entire premise of mantle has been to cut down on CPU bottlenecks. CPU bottlenecks are seldom an issue for the lower end and it is typically the GPU that is the bottleneck so why would you expect dramatic results in such scenarios?

If you set unrealistic expectations, you are only setting yourself up for disappointment...

how are people doing these benchmarks when the drivers are not even out yet? also im still expecting alot being cpu bottle necked

They aren't. Everyone has been discussing the DICE figures to exhaustion
 
Last edited:

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Why is that? The entire premise of mantle has been to cut down on CPU bottlenecks. CPU bottlenecks are seldom an issue for the lower end and it is typically the GPU that is the bottleneck so why would you expect dramatic results in such scenarios?

If you set unrealistic expectations, you are only setting yourself up for disappointment...

Go way back in the thread. How many people touted it as the second coming? That is why.

Well keep in mind, the optimizations will keep coming and so will the performance. Free performance is nothing to be negative about. I don't quite understand peoples views about wanting Mantle to fail. I guess if i paid $200 more for a video card that got a few fps more, i would be pissed. But, shame on them, for making a stupid decision anyhow.. E-peens get you no where.

Might not make any difference due to the overpriced retailers currently.
 

Slomo4shO

Senior member
Nov 17, 2008
586
0
71
Go way back in the thread. How many people touted it as the second coming? That is why.

Got no one but yourself to blame for jumping on the bandwagon. 5-10% performance boosts in GPU bottleneck scenarios and greater gains in CPU bottlenecks seemed like a reasonable outcome. The word of "up to 45%" has been floating around for weeks and most individuals ignorantly took it at face value. I am sure that if you pair a low end CPU to a mid to high end card you will realize substance increase in performance but expecting an overclocked 4770K build to reach double digit performance boosts off a single GPU is unrealistic in most circumstances. It may be the case later on when more games are added that stress the cores or after the API is refined.

I should be able to test this with the Star Swarm benchmark once the mantle patch release but at this point it is all speculation...
 

Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
91
Its good news for those who cant afford high end CPUs, but kinda meh to those who own i7s.

Not sure how this is gonna get foothold or even remotely have a chance of replacing DirectX. Few years down the line when either Nvidia have responded or Microsoft have updated DX, I have a feeling Mantle will be kinda like PhysX for Nvidia.
Implemented on a few games where AMD pay up, disregarded by the most developers. And it will be used as a pro for AMD cards in future discussion where Nvidia guys respond it offers too little and is only used on a couple of games. And around and round we go...

Broadwell is just around the corner, CPUs get more powerful each year, CPU bottlenecks and usage go down, Mantle becomes less powerful.
I do wish that Mantle replaced DX since it is better, but I dont see that happening. DX have a death grip on the market.
 
Last edited:

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
I want to see reviews using an old i5-2500k overclocked.


That being said, I want to see reviews. If the only thing Mantle gives us is a MS that actually improves DX more than it has, it's a win for gamers. If we get more from that, it's gravy to me.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
Is now the time to say I told you so?

Code:
Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
Core i7-4960X CPU + R7 260X GPU
1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 2.7% improvement
1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 1.4% improvement

It has already been shown that with CF there is a 58% increase in performance.

So no, it is not time for you to say "I told you so" because you are wrong in your conclusions.

EDIT: Also, the vast majority of gamers do not have top end $1000 hex core i7's. Most of them have i5's, which will gain more.
 
Last edited:

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,532
13,104
136
Go way back in the thread. How many people touted it as the second coming? That is why.

And these numbers is not the second coming? 50%+ isnt signigicant? You'll get to take your top end CPU and add GPU compute to it until you end up with 50%+ than was previosly possible. Mantle just upped the high end bar by 50%+ (IF the numbers hold true).
- That is in a game, BF4, that apparantly is not well suited to show off mantle .. so measly 50 % !!
- That is the first-mover implementation, mantle-api-1.0, it will improve with time.
- RTS style games ...

If the numbers hold, then I'd say mantle delivered - and then some. And then some more!
 
Last edited:

MutantGith

Member
Aug 3, 2010
53
0
0
Well keep in mind, the optimizations will keep coming and so will the performance. Free performance is nothing to be negative about. I don't quite understand peoples views about wanting Mantle to fail. I guess if i paid $200 more for a video card that got a few fps more, i would be pissed. But, shame on them, for making a stupid decision anyhow.. E-peens get you no where.

My concern isn't really related to anyone, myself or some random person on the internet with a different car, getting better performance. I'm completely all for that.

What I am concerned about is the implication that benefit in performance might lead to. I couldn't really care less what frame gains might be realized with Battlefield 4. My concern is the case of Oxide. I like RPG and RTS games. I like Stardock and similar games. I appreciate the mission statement that the engine used in/Oxide engine was programmed from the ground up to work better with 64 bit high memory systems, because RPGs and RTS titles need different things than a military FPS. I get all of that.

But what I am potentially worried about is that, if Mantle gets enough traction games like these could become just as much about showcasing the strengths in that API and degrading performance on DX as about making great games. Traditionally, when one vendor or another comes out with a feature or an optimization, it's in an engine or for a game that's still DX compliant, so if you aren't in the right camp for that feature or optimization, hey...no biggie, you can still play the game. NVIDIA has TXAA, AMD has MLAA, and so on and so on. These features are nice for people who like them, but not necessary, and aren't going to cripple a game for the other camp of people because they are on as a mandatory.

Mantle has a chance to change that. Having tried to run the Oxide demo here on the machine I am at currently, I'm kind of concerned. Turning that down as low as it can go, upscaling, etc, nets me horrible slide show performance. Granted this is on one of my work workstations, with a mere mid range i5 and a 6770. But, on this same machine, I can run Shogun, Civ 5, and a number of other, potentially unit heavy games, albeit at machine reasonable settings. I'm concerned that that won't be an option in the near future. Effectively, I'd be forced to buy a very specific combination of hardware in order to play certain titles even at mediocre settings, because if you don't your DX/OpenGL only hardware will get hammered into submission by overaggressive draw calls and effects like extremely computationally heavy motion blur, effects that you can't turn off, unit numbers that you can't turn down.

I'm also not a fan of that logic getting extended even further. Mantle looks like it's going well, so NVIDIA gets in on the act, and underwrites a different set of studios, and gets another API. Then, heck, Intel, feeling a little CPU heat, decides to use a partnership with Microsoft to get MMX like calls written into compute in DX 12, so that AMD chips run like junk, AMD responds by making Mantle AMD CPU specific as well....etc.

So while more detail could be gone into, no, I'm not in any way upset that some people are going to get better performance out of their hardware. Great. I'm slightly bummed that my 6950 crossfire system is out of that running, and may never get frame pacing benefits, but hey...whatever, I've moved on. Ideally, I would love for Mantle to create enough stir to satisfy people that had a desparate need to be justified in their hardware choice, and also to rouse the lazy giants at the OpenGL and DX standards bodies. Enough to get some real, more widely applicable optimizations and reworking of code paths done. The majority of what developers have said about the Mantle API seems to be related to good coding practices, engine optimization, and tools. Those should in theory be applicable to any hardware given the right adoption. And maybe they will be, if AMD would stop being cagey about what the 'minimum requirements' for Mantle adoption are.

I hope that wasn't too long winded, but seeing as real performance analysis is missing along with the drivers, it seemed like a good place to interject some perspective about why I might be interested in the outcome of the roll out.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
The only semi-comparative bench was the following and it still showed substantial performance boosts. I'll wait for real reviews to draw an factual conclusion :whiste:
There is a big difference between situations here.

1) Your comparison has a slower CPU. (3770k @ 4Ghz vs AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz)
2) Your comparison is at 1080p, he is talking about 4k.
3) He was asking if it would allow for higher GPU settings.

You showed a CPU bottleneck. He is talking about a GPU bottlenecked setup.
 

Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
91
About the crossfire results:
http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/forum/threadview/2955064773334491797/

A) Why is the 3970X running at 3.5Ghz when tested and not 4.0GHz?
B) Why is it running in 60Hz mode when they tested with DX but 120Hz when tested with Mantle?
C) Why does it only get 78FPS with 290x CF running DX with 1080p with 4xMSAA when Sweclockers got 102FPS with 290x CF running 1440p and 4xMSAA?
http://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/17...-r9-290x-crossfire-och-r9-290-i-battlefield-4


Something is very fishy here
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
And these numbers is not the second coming? 50%+ isnt signigicant? You'll get to take your top end CPU and add GPU compute to it until you end up with 50%+ than was previosly possible. Mantle just upped the high end bar by 50%+ (IF the numbers hold true).
- That is in a game, BF4, that apparantly is not well suited to show off mantle .. so measly 50 % !!
- That is the first-mover implementation, mantle-api-1.0, it will improve with time.
- RTS style games ...

If the numbers hold, then I'd say mantle delivered - and then some. And then some more!

You're not getting 50% increased frame rate in all cases...the 50% figure is a bit misleading.

In many cases it was less than 5%. It's alright, but nothing I'd pay Mining taxes to get a GPU to use.
 
Last edited:

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
It has already been shown that with CF there is a 58% increase in performance.

Pfft,

If only such claims could be independently tested right now by a review website such as guru3d or PCPer to verify such findings. As is, it sounds like an extreme cherry picked result. But, I don't know. A single GPU in GPU limited situations giving 0-5% gain while crossfire giving 58% gain? Yeah. Okay. Whatever. Sure. Probably a result to put AMD in the best light possible in the weirdest CPU limited situation possible. Is it possible? Maybe, but I don't think that is a representative or "typical" result, and I highly doubt it. What we need is for independent reviewers to test such claims.
 
Last edited:

Slomo4shO

Senior member
Nov 17, 2008
586
0
71
There is a big difference between situations here.

1) Your comparison has a slower CPU. (3770k @ 4Ghz vs AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz)
2) Your comparison is at 1080p, he is talking about 4k.
3) He was asking if it would allow for higher GPU settings.

You showed a CPU bottleneck. He is talking about a GPU bottlenecked setup.

Precisely the point, you have no data to make any conclusive verdict on performance of a setup that has yet to be observed.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
You're not getting 50% increased frame rate in all cases...the 50% figure is a bit misleading.

In many cases it was less than 5%. It's alright, but nothing I'd pay Mining taxes to get a GPU to use.

What?!

At least the scree shots and numbers that AMD posted shows a 58% increase in frame rate. What else could the 50% mean if you say its not FPS?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
What?!

At least the scree shots and numbers that AMD posted shows a 58% increase in frame rate. What else could the 50% mean if you say its not FPS?

Bolded is the reason why it should not be taken seriously. It's probably a real result likely in the most cherry picked situation possible, and not a typical one. But we'll see when independent reviewers test it.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
Pfft,

If only such claims could be independently tested right now by a review website such as guru3d or PCPer to verify such findings. As is, it sounds like an extreme cherry picked result. But, I don't know. A single GPU in GPU limited situations giving 0-5% gain while crossfire giving 58% gain? Yeah. Okay. Whatever. Sure. Probably a result to put AMD in the best light possible in the weirdest CPU limited situation possible. Is it possible? Maybe, but I don't think that is a representative or "typical" result, and I highly doubt it. What we need is for independent reviewers to test such claims.

Not saying it isnt cherry picked, I am sure it is. But think about it. With a single GPU setup you are more likely to be GPU limited than if you have two GPU's. Which typically results in a CPU limited condition. And its quite possible there is some issues with DX and CF that gets resolved with Mantle. Not sure. I am sure within the next 24-48 hours we will find out for sure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |