The AMD Mantle Thread

[Yarn]

That mantle was the api in the Xbox was a rumour and a questionable one at that. It doesn't have to be a carbon copy to meet its goals. Please explain how mantle in falling apart

 

[OCGuy]

That mantle was the api in the Xbox was a rumour and a questionable one at that. It doesn't have to be a carbon copy to meet its goals. Please explain how mantle in falling apart

Read some of the posts I quoted.....you'll understand. Just start reading from the beginning of this thread, actually.

 

[chimaxi83]

Read some of the posts I quoted.....you'll understand. Just start reading from the beginning of this thread, actually.

What exactly is your point (other than yet another downplay of anything AMD is doing)? Console gaming is - - - > that way.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Dx11.2 is a feature set for gpu's and an abstraction layer to get it to work across a variety of hardware. Mantle is an api that let's developers control DX features baked into the GPU without going through the abstraction layer.

The only thing we know for sure about Xbox one is that it supports the features on dx11.2. Where does it say you must use the bloated PC DX api to get your hardware to run those features?

 

[stahlhart]

< - - - No, it's this way, actually.
-- stahlhart

 

[Yarn]

Read some of the posts I quoted.....you'll understand. Just start reading from the beginning of this thread, actually.

I have, maybe I'm just slow like that though. Anyways, good luck with whatever ails you.

 

[BoFox]

ATI/AMD have promised physics for ages. But still not there. So I wouldnt expect anything anytime soon. Seems it pops up every 2-3 years since 2006.

LOLOLOLOL...

At least it might certainly be possible with Mantle.

Like with CUDA providing a low-level API upon which PhysX drivers run, game devs could certainly contrive some kind of physics altgorithm for their blockbuster games on the consoles as well as for the PC, thanks to the flexibility of this new forward-looking GCN architecture, and also thanks to the incentive of a universal "metal" standard - which is also GCN architecture.

If AMD works hard on this, AMD could certainly materialize what ATI dreamed up with a dedicated Radeon card running physics.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Is that another ShintaiDK forecast?

So you really believe that consoles get that kind of performance from ultra crappy hardware by running only on something like the APIs that exist in the PC?

And it isn't something that will run on BF4 - it is something that will run on the frostbite engine.

So....? No Mantle for Xbox One. Whats your comment now?

Turns out Xbox will not have Mantle support.

Yes, he was right. No Mantle on Xbox.

It was obvious there would never be Mantle support. But some people got blinded by PR, others was already blind.

 

[ShintaiDK]

LOLOLOLOL...

At least it might certainly be possible with Mantle.

Like with CUDA providing a low-level API upon which PhysX drivers run, game devs could certainly contrive some kind of physics altgorithm for their blockbuster games on the consoles as well as for the PC, thanks to the flexibility of this new forward-looking GCN architecture, and also thanks to the incentive of a universal "metal" standard - which is also GCN architecture.

If AMD works hard on this, AMD could certainly materialize what ATI dreamed up with a dedicated Radeon card running physics.

I doubt Mantle can do it. Its related to AMDs STREAM. Its AMDs version of CUDA. AMD already tried for ages, last slide I ca find is from 2012 I think with physics. They simply lack the will to follow through with the project. Or its simply nothing but PR slides now and then to spark hopes.

 

[dacostafilipe]

It was obvious there would never be Mantle support.

What's obvious is that MS has a special version of DX for his consoles. It's not the same as DX version we use on Desktop, a lot of the "compatibility layers" were removed and it's specialised for the hardware used in the console. For example support for the new "Hardware tiled textures" only available on the X1.

Also obvious it that Mantle is only an API for GNC, and with this, it's also obvious why it's not a solution for X1 with the specialised hardware.

Something also obvious is that devs know what runs better on AMD or Nvidia hardware and that's why all modern 3D engines have specialised rendering path for AMD/Nvidia.

AMD only provides a new way to optimise this even more for GNC hardware. Nothing more ... it's not the messiah people hope it is.

 

[GaiaHunter]

So....? No Mantle for Xbox One. Whats your comment now?



It was obvious there would never be Mantle support. But some people got blinded by PR, others was already blind.

Why would Mantle be available for the Xbone or the PS4?

Mantle is available for the PC to utilize the optimizations done for XBone and the PS4 and some of those optimizations are done via low level API.

That low level API used in XBone and PS4 is compatible with AMD's GCN architecture. Mantle is the consoles low level API available for PC.

This just show you never understood what "Mantle is the low level API of XBone" in the AT article means.

I've asked you before.

Do you believe the low level API present in Xbone and PS4 are a top secret that AMD has no clue about?

 

[GaiaHunter]

Read some of the posts I quoted.....you'll understand. Just start reading from the beginning of this thread, actually.

Another one that doesn't understand.

Soon you will be telling us that Xbone and PS4 are actually optimized for something else than AMD hardware.

When you optimize for Xbone and PS4, part of those optimizations are for AMD hardware.

Did in these AMD slides say it was available for consoles?
The answer is no.

What it said it allows to "leverage optimization work from next-gen consoles" and it does that because GCN "speak" the same language inside consoles and inside PCs.

Yes, he was right. No Mantle on Xbox.

By the way OCGuy you might wish to quote the full conversation.

Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. Specially with the absense of any direct performance benefits. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.

Is that another ShintaiDK forecast?

So you really believe that consoles get that kind of performance from ultra crappy hardware by running only on something like the APIs that exist in the PC?

And it isn't something that will run on BF4 - it is something that will run on the frostbite engine.

From the same anandtech article from the OP

Funny, isn't it, considering that not even AMD claimed Mantle would run on anything but the PC and my question was a completely different one.

Just in case you missed, I asked ShintaiSK if he believed that consoles had no low level API.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Why would Mantle be available for the Xbone or the PS4?

Mantle is available for the PC to utilize the optimizations done for XBone and the PS4 and some of those optimizations are done via low level API.

That low level API used in XBone and PS4 is compatible with AMD's GCN architecture. Mantle is the consoles low level API available for PC.

This just show you never understood what "Mantle is the low level API of XBone" in the AT article means.

I've asked you before.

Do you believe the low level API present in Xbone and PS4 are a top secret that AMD has no clue about?

Oh spare me the BS. You where wrong, you tried to flame me as usual with the forecast nonsense and you got caught being wrong. The Mantle hype is dying.

 

[wand3r3r]

The sky didn't fall despite some peoples best wishes/worries.

AMD's comment.

&#8220;What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that&#8217;s *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they&#8217;re doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist.&#8221;

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/am..._exclusive_to_pc_not_present_on_xbox_one.html

 

[GaiaHunter]

Oh spare me the BS. You where wrong, you tried to flame me as usual with the forecast nonsense and you got caught being wrong. The Mantle hype is dying.

Show me a post where I said Mantle is something other than the Xbone and PS4 low-level API for the PC.

Why would AMD need to offer Mantle for consoles when consoles are already low level OPTIMIZED FOR AMD?

I see you missed my point from that old post of mine.

I'll repeat.

Do you believe consoles DX and OpenGL ES APIs are exactly the same as the PC versions?
Do you believe that there is no direct access to metal in the consoles?
Do you believe Mantle is not engine based but game based?

 

[desprado]

Mantle wont have much games until AMD start paying every developer for each game to use mantle because they dont have majority of user and stock market of PC.They had there gpu in Xbox 360 so nothing much happened.Same they had now there GPU in xbone which lacks of power to run modern games at 1080p.

 

[3DVagabond]

Mantle wont have much games until AMD start paying every developer for each game to use mantle because they dont have majority of user and stock market of PC.They had there gpu in Xbox 360 so nothing much happened.Same they had now there GPU in xbone which lacks of power to run modern games at 1080p.

You are confusing Mantle with PhysX.

 

[wand3r3r]

Oh spare me the BS. You where wrong, you tried to flame me as usual with the forecast nonsense and you got caught being wrong. The Mantle hype is dying.

What's with the desperation to downplay it? We don't even know what it can/can't do and now the viral campaigning to kill it is beginning or actually in full swing with all the threads here. Why can't you wait to proclaim failure until we see what it does. It appears to be simply trolling as there is no data to back up that statement.

If anything I'd say the 'hype' is growing, not that it will be an indication of it's success. Even an NV sponsored company Ubisoft said they are excited to see it, although it may require resources. Despite all of these facts you are in here claiming the hype is dying, I wonder if you mean your personal hype.

 

[ShintaiDK]

What's with the desperation to downplay it? We don't even know what it can/can't do and now the viral campaigning to kill it is beginning or actually in full swing with all the threads here. Why can't you wait to proclaim failure until we see what it does. It appears to be simply trolling as there is no data to back up that statement.

If anything I'd say the 'hype' is growing, not that it will be an indication of it's success. Even an NV sponsored company Ubisoft said they are excited to see it, although it may require resources. Despite all of these facts you are in here claiming the hype is dying, I wonder if you mean your personal hype.

So far everything has been about upplaying Mantle. There is no boundaries to how much faster it would be, consoles would use and it and so on with nVidia already proclaimed dead. Hell, some even saw the death of DirectX.

The only viral you see is played by AMD and its crowd.

Mantle looks like a rerun of the Bulldozer hype.

 

[GaiaHunter]

consoles would use and it

The first person in this thread that thought mantle might be used in the consoles was you.

Informed people that know what Mantle is trying to do (and correctly read the slides at the Mantle announcement), know Mantle has no need to run in the consoles since consoles are already optimized for its own hardware (in this case AMD hardware).

Of course those people also understand that the DX and OpenGL ES APIs used in console have a low level component that simply does not exist in the PC.

That low level API is what was said Mantle was based on, probably even equal to it.

That makes sense since the GCN of the PC, GCN of the PS4 and GCN of the Xbone are the same architecture and so to access the metal one needs to use calls that are valid on all the variants of GCN.

One should notice that Microsoft didn't say Mantle isn't compatible with Xbone or that Mantle isn't or share the same low level API/calls to the metal.

 

[dacostafilipe]

"close-to-metal" is kinda wrong for Mantle, "close-to-driver" would be more accurate.

The idea behind Mantle is not new, AMD and Nvidia have tools that have access the GPU (ex: NVAPI).

Mantle will just be specialised for gaming.

 

[Borealis7]

will I, as a programmer, be able to install an IDE and start making 3D scenes with spinning bouncing triangles using Mantle as i did with XNA?

 

[GaiaHunter]

"close-to-metal" is kinda wrong for Mantle, "close-to-driver" would be more accurate.

The idea behind Mantle is not new, AMD and Nvidia have tools that have access the GPU (ex: NVAPI).

Mantle will just be specialised for gaming.

Close to driver but a much simpler, less bloated driver that doesn't need to interact with a highly abstract API.
Indeed there needs to be something to account for the fact the specs of PC GCN cards are wildly variable and that is shown in the Slides (Core-Mantle driver-Mantle API).

 

[Keysplayr]

The first person in this thread that thought mantle might be used in the consoles was you.

Informed people that know what Mantle is trying to do (and correctly read the slides at the Mantle announcement), know Mantle has no need to run in the consoles since consoles are already optimized for its own hardware (in this case AMD hardware).

Of course those people also understand that the DX and OpenGL ES APIs used in console have a low level component that simply does not exist in the PC.

That low level API is what was said Mantle was based on, probably even equal to it.

That makes sense since the GCN of the PC, GCN of the PS4 and GCN of the Xbone are the same architecture and so to access the metal one needs to use calls that are valid on all the variants of GCN.

One should notice that Microsoft didn't say Mantle isn't compatible with Xbone or that Mantle isn't or share the same low level API/calls to the metal.

Actually, Ryan Smith gave the idea.
"Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One&#8217;s low level API brought to the PC."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

 

[GaiaHunter]

Actually, Ryan Smith gave the idea.
"Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One&#8217;s low level API brought to the PC."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

Ryan didn't say Xbone used Mantle.
He said Mantle was the Xbone low level API brought to the PC.

That is a very important difference.

Microsoft didn't deny the second statement.

"but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it&#8217;s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One&#8217;s low level graphics API."

Copy or a very close derivative.

One could say it is similar concept to reverse engineering or having the carbon paper - except AMD actually had to provide MS with the technical specifications and how to access the GCN architecture, so AMD was legally involved.