The AMD Mantle Thread

[BallaTheFeared]

Seems like fishing, the wording implies it is used in some form or fasion when the truth is it is not.


It can also be said with reasonable merit that when devs called for a better API with lower level access on the PC they were asking for something that more than ~5% of the current market would benefit from.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Seems like fishing, the wording implies it is used in some form or fasion when the truth is it is not.

Do you know about the egg and the chicken?

Mantle exists because there is a low level API for Xbone/PS4.

The low level API for Xbone/PS4 existed first and that is what is used in the consoles.

Part of Mantle is a copy/similar to it.

Mantle is just a name for the part that is a copy/similar to the consoles low level API plus other things like a toolkit and a driver.

Mantle itself doesn't need to exist on the Xbone, because part of it is a copy of what exists there.

Example:
There is a call in the XBone named Draw().
Mantle has a call named Draw().
The call in the Xbone named Draw() commands the stream processors of GCN inside the Xbone to do "such and such".
The Mantle call in the PC named Draw() commands the stream processors of GCN inside the PC to do "such and such".

A Dev working on a game for the XBone has this "bit of code" that used the Draw(such and such).
Using Mantle, the Dev working on a port of that game for the PC is able to use the "bit of code" by using the Draw(such and such) when a GCN card is present.

 

[Keysplayr]

Then why on earth was it being pushed that if Mantle was used on AMD powered GCN consoles, it would spell the end of the line for competitors when those games created through Mantle for console were ported to PC?
More than a few times this has been said or implied.
It's the end of the road for all comers because any port from a console using Mantle would have up to a 55% performance advantage over competitors. Isn't that the atmosphere that is trying to be created in here by more than a few members?

 

[24601]

Then why on earth was it being pushed that if Mantle was used on AMD powered GCN consoles, it would spell the end of the line for competitors when those games created through Mantle for console were ported to PC?
More than a few times this has been said or implied.
It's the end of the road for all comers because any port from a console using Mantle would have up to a 55% performance advantage over competitors. Isn't that the atmosphere that is trying to be created in here by more than a few members?

It's becoming obvious that this is bulldozer 2.0

"Wait!!! Keep Waiting!!!!! It'll totally be awesome if you don't believe me you are evil/incompetent/lying/shill!!!!!"

 

[GaiaHunter]

Then why on earth was it being pushed that if Mantle was used on AMD powered GCN consoles, it would spell the end of the line for competitors when those games created through Mantle for console were ported to PC?
More than a few times this has been said or implied.
It's the end of the road for all comers because any port from a console using Mantle would have up to a 55% performance advantage over competitors. Isn't that the atmosphere that is trying to be created in here by more than a few members?

There are crazies everywhere.

You will not find a single post of mine saying how much performance Mantle will deliver or that NVIDIA is at risk because of this.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if NVIDIA decide to push their own low level API even without consoles, although they might be betting their cards on SteamOS to get ride of DX.

I personally would like very much to be able to play games as easily as I do in windows without having to use windows and MS shenanigans of having to get a new OS whenever they release a new DX version.

And again, what was said by anyone with any reputation and not some random forum poster is that Mantle is an exact copy or very similar to the low level APIs in the consoles not that AMD was running Mantle in the consoles.

Now, again, it is obvious that any low level API that the consoles use is compatible with GCN because that is the architecture existing in the consoles.

Mantle doesn't need to be in the consoles, it just needs to be a copy or similar to what run in the consoles.

 

[Keysplayr]

Been around long enough to know when something is phenomenally over-hyped.

 

[tviceman]

Mantle is getting fleshed out really well now that it's become entirely clear it's not a cross-platform API. As I've already said multiple times, Mantle will be relegated to GPU-physx like adoption, and even then it will likely not bring extra whiz-bang features.

Yawn.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Been around long enough to know when something is phenomenally over-hyped.

One thing is to overhype performance gains or adoption, other is to question the fundamentals.

The fundamentals are:

1) Consoles run GCN architecture for geaphics.
2) Consoles have low level API to allow closer access to hardware that is not generally seen in the PC.
3) AMD knows how the low level API of the consoles work since it has to work with AMD GCN.
4) AMD can create an API that is a copy of the low level API found in consoles.

Do you doubt any of those 4 fundamental facts?

 

[AnandThenMan]

As I've already said multiple times, Mantle will be relegated to GPU-physx like adoption, and even then it will likely not bring extra whiz-bang features.

Yawn.

Definitely a post I will revisit in the future.

 

[chimaxi83]

Its funny, and at the same time wholly unsurprising, to read the opinions (who some try to pass off as fact) in here and who they're from.

 

[tviceman]

Definitely a post I will revisit in the future.

Bookmark it and let us know in a year or two how right or wrong I am.

 

[tviceman]

So now that it's established that Mantle will not straight up work cross-platform and it's a PC-specific API excluding Intel iGPU's and Nvidia dGPU's, riddle me this those with Mantle hard-ons:

What incentive do developers have (other than AMD forking over large amounts of cash) to spend time, money, and resources to code the game for an API that will target the vast minority of PC users when they are already building a DX or OGL version of the same game that will run on all hardware?

Let me rephrase it to middle school levels:
Why in the world would YOU, as a business, rework the same exact product when it will cost you time, money, effort, and future technical support for a minority of your customers when they can already use the existing product as is just fine without any problems?

 

[cmdrdredd]

So now that it's established that Mantle will not straight up work cross-platform and it's a PC-specific API excluding Intel iGPU's and Nvidia dGPU's, riddle me this those with Mantle hard-ons:

What incentive do developers have (other than AMD forking over large amounts of cash) to spend time, money, and resources to code the game for an API that will target the vast minority of PC users when they are already building a DX or OGL version of the same game that will run on all hardware?

Let me rephrase it to middle school levels:
Why in the world would YOU, as a business, rework the same exact product when it will cost you time, money, effort, and future technical support for a minority of your customers when they can already use the existing product as is just fine without any problems?

I answered this before. To port your game engine to or from consoles easily. You are correct though in that only GCN cards can use it on the PC so the audience is limited without also using DX.

 

[tviceman]

I answered this before. To port your game engine to or from consoles easily.

And where does that leave the other 75% of PC gamers who do not have an AMD CPU or GPU? Apparently you, as a business person, do not want to sell very many of your products.

 

[sontin]

Which still don't support Mantle?!

 

[GaiaHunter]

So now that it's established that Mantle will not straight up work cross-platform and it's a PC-specific API excluding Intel iGPU's and Nvidia dGPU's, riddle me this those with Mantle hard-ons:

What incentive do developers have (other than AMD forking over large amounts of cash) to spend time, money, and resources to code the game for an API that will target the vast minority of PC users when they are already building a DX or OGL version of the same game that will run on all hardware?

Let me rephrase it to middle school levels:
Why in the world would YOU, as a business, rework the same exact product when it will cost you time, money, effort, and future technical support for a minority of your customers when they can already use the existing product as is just fine without any problems?

Mantle was never announced for consoles in the first place and it never depended on being present in the consoles as an AMD API.

You don't have to rework the product, just write a wrapper for Mantle and reuse some of the optimizations you coded for consoles.

The MS announcement changes nothing because it was already established Mantle was created to bring the consoles optimizations to the PC and not to optimize consoles.

Or will developers refuse to optimize for consoles because it is AMD hardware?

 

[GaiaHunter]

And where does that leave the other 75% of PC gamers who do not have an AMD CPU or GPU? Apparently you, as a business person, do not want to sell very many of your products.

AMD only needs to convince the major engines that are licensed to support mantle. Once the engine has a mantle wrapper why would one not use the code already written for the consoles?

And what does the CPU have to do with anything?

 

[SiliconWars]

What incentive do developers have (other than AMD forking over large amounts of cash) to spend time, money, and resources to code the game for an API that will target the vast minority of PC users when they are already building a DX or OGL version of the same game that will run on all hardware?

Let me rephrase it to middle school levels:
Why in the world would YOU, as a business, rework the same exact product when it will cost you time, money, effort, and future technical support for a minority of your customers when they can already use the existing product as is just fine without any problems?

Already covered many times over. The simplest reason is time to market - there will be no good reason for most console ports being made available on Mantle on release instead of having us wait. Porting to Mantle from consoles must be an awful lot easier and faster than porting to DirectX, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

The second reason as it will help to bring about the death of DirectX, which is something everbody except MS wants. Even Nvidia wants it, but not in this way where they are basically roadkill. There is no greater threat to DirectX than Mantle is right now.

Reason 3 - there's nothing stopping the devs from adding a $5 Mantle tax to cover costs.

Reason 4 - AMD will definitely subsidise it if they need to. They already subsidise a large number of games so why would they stop now?

There are probably an awful lot of reasons why devs would. That's why EA is, Activision probably will and even Nvidia's staunchest ally - Ubisoft - is interested. They all know this can't be ignored, it's too dangerous to be left out. I absolutely 100% guarantee that Crytek will be named as a partner soon btw, they will be very interested in the performance and IQ gains.

 

[desprado]

AMD only needs to convince the major engines that are licensed to support mantle. Once the engine has a mantle wrapper why would one not use the code already written for the consoles?

And what does the CPU have to do with anything?

Mantle will not apply that i can beat.Nvidia,Intel and MS has much more money than AMD and AMD cannot even beat one of them in PC market and percentage of user.Developer always target majority not minority.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Mantle will not apply that i can beat.Nvidia,Intel and MS has much more money than AMD and AMD cannot even beat one of them in PC market and percentage of user.Developer always target majority not minority.

The majority of videogames targeting console and PC will be targeting AMD hardware though.

Unless someone believe that console games aren't optimized.
AMD has all the interest those optimizations see the light of the day for the PC.

 

[sontin]

The second reason as it will help to bring about the death of DirectX, which is something everbody except MS wants. Even Nvidia wants it, but not in this way where they are basically roadkill. There is no greater threat to DirectX than Mantle is right now.

Lolwut? :\
Mantle is using HLSL. If DX would die so would Mantle...

BTW: look what Microsoft is thinking about D3D :

2. Your investments Direct3D 11 carry forward across of Microsoft’s devices. Direct3D is the starting point for games on Windows PC’s and Tablets, Windows Phone, or Xbox One.

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx

 

[desprado]

The majority of videogames targeting console and PC will be targeting AMD hardware though.

Unless someone believe that console games aren't optimized.
AMD has all the interest those optimizations see the light of the day for the PC.

Xbox 360 also had AMD hardware though did that change the fact no.Xbone support only DX 11.2 and they wont allow mantle to evolve on MS.

 

[Paul98]

How many here program, have used directx, opengl, done low level graphics programming, and spent a lot of time optimizing for performance and visuals?

 

[GaiaHunter]

It seems to me I was spot on Ryan thoughts.

http://www.anandtech.com/comments/7...upport-names-xbox-one-api-direct3d-11x/333663

Which is why that's a one-way arrow in our API diagram. It's our belief that Mantle is the Xbox One's low level API brought to the PC; but it's not a low level PC API brought to the Xbox One. The symmetric property wouldn't apply here.

http://www.anandtech.com/comments/7...upport-names-xbox-one-api-direct3d-11x/333656

Of course that assumes that Mantle is significantly different from D3D11.x's low level programming constructs. We won't have the full details until next month, but we are still expecting the two to be highly similar, if not identical in all the important respects. After all, the goal is to ease portability.

Though whether further developers besides DICE pick it up remains to be seen. AMD does need to be able to attract developers to take the time to support Mantle, even if the work is trivial.

"All alligators are crocodiles, but not all crocodiles are alligators"

 

[GaiaHunter]

Xbox 360 also had AMD hardware though did that change the fact no.Xbone support only DX 11.2 and they wont allow mantle to evolve on MS.

Not the exact same architecture AMD was using for their PC cards.

And of course AMD had no mantle then.

By the way DX11.X is a different API from DX11 - the X is for XBOXOne and not for any algebraic X.