The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

What better way of doing that, than linking to the new good writeup by Ryan:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7431/amd-blog-post-the-four-core-principles-of-amds-mantle

From AMD blog "In short, Mantle is a new and better way to bring the code developers are already writing for next-generation consoles to life on the PC. It achieves this by being similar to, and often compatible with, the code they are already writing for those platforms"

So even "compatible with"

So it seems Ryan can easily stand by his remarks from his first write up.

(edit: he probably knew from inside knowledge from the start )

 

[krumme]

So now we just have to know what "often" is

But anyway great news. It will mean far more ports from consoles, and ports that is not consolites.

My take on it is "often" in reality probably means 80% compatible 20% similar, but for strategic/pride/cultural/more political reasons excactly that will be toned down. And ofcource it changes from game to game, console to console. But its good economic reason to share the cost also for MS and Sony.

 

[SiliconWars]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1795735&postcount=262

02:56PM EDT - Can you tell us how much they paid for you to use Mantle?
02:56PM EDT - Johan: They wouldn't have to pay us anything to use it, I've been pitching these ideas to any vendor for year

 

[smackababy]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1795735&postcount=262

"They wouldn't have to pay us" != "they didn't pay us." They didn't have to pay Kevin Smith to write a Superman script, he would have done it for free. He was paid for it though, and they didn't even use it.

 

[Grooveriding]

I wonder if AMD paid DICE more or less to use Mantle than nvidia paid Origin PC to smear AMD for them ?

 

[krumme]

The 8m amd paid dice, for perhaps the most important engine of 3 engines that matters, is the same as 0. I think its tradition to pay for the games, for good reason, and the 8m is probably said to be for bf4 if i remember correctly? Its more a symbolic number.

But in reality it turn out to be for an entire engine. I dont know how they did come to that number but anyway it would be difficult to get amd to pay more because they dont have the cash They have more talent than cash.

(As comparison and perhaps a bit off topic i would be surpriced if origin got more than 100k from nv in indirect future incentives for their commitment and pr work to smear amd - this number if surely far lower)

 

[krumme]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1795735&postcount=262

Funny find.

Notice the context. Its Dave Baumann posting on b3d:

" On the rumor of AMD paying DiCE for Mantle support, thanks to NVIDIA's panel:"

Lol. A good one.

But he is slippery here. Amd did not pay Dice for mantle support, but as i wrote in earlier post they paid through bf4. But anyway the amount is so utterly insignificant compared to the effect its more symbolic imho.

 

[krumme]

I think we need to add a perspective to this mantle issue;

Amd and Dice have been working with "mantle" and the ideas for years. Even before cgn. Sony, ms and a lot of other players have bee into it too.

When tsmc old man hold a speech for a group of engineers recently he emphasized the need for deep colaboration with customers. The reason beeing the tighter margins and compettition.

I think this mantle thing is a star example of how colaboration can be. Its a solution where both participants push with knowledge and demands. This time with probably dice and sony as frontrunners.

What comes from this is solutions derived at the consumer end instead of from tech side (unlike stupid complex techblind decisions like true quadcore or module) .

Mantle is also a solution nobody could do themselves.

On a meta perspective think its very much how future innovative products could be born.

 

[ams23]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1795735&postcount=262

The reality is that AMD did pay a large amount of money for Battlefield 4, and this includes Mantle support. AMD has stated at B3D that Mantle requires extra development work to get optimal results compared to DirectX/OpenGL, and that work doesn't come for free.

On an aside, Johan at DICE also stated that it would be a terrible thing if Intel, NVIDIA, Qualcomm all decided to pursue their own IHV-specific API. So he is kind of contradicting himself here. Last but not least, Tim Sweeney and John Carmack are against IHV-specific graphics API's such as Mantle (as is Johan apparently except for promoting Mantle?) but they do admit that this could have a positive influence on DirectX and OpenGL by forcing improvements to these API's.

 

[sontin]

Yes, after these bits it seems that Johan will abandon Mantle as soon as possible when MS and Khronos Group will start to modify their APIs.

 

[chimaxi83]

Yes, after these bits it seems that Johan will abandon Mantle as soon as possible when MS and Khronos Group will start to modify their APIs.

Where'd you get that from? Just because he said it'd be bad for everyone to have their own?

 

[sontin]

Yes.

02:57PM EDT - Johan: We see lots of stalls, performance gone missing, we want to learn how to program a machine on a really low level that has a good architecture for it
02:56PM EDT - Johan: They wouldn't have to pay us anything to use it, I've been pitching these ideas to any vendor for years

02:53PM EDT - Johan: if NV and Intel and Qualcomm did their own APIs, that would be a bad future, MS and Khronos play an important part in all of this, I hope Mantle will be quite influential in many of these aspects, what we're doing with AMD is just a start
02:53PM EDT - Johan: it's not a replacement, the idea is that we can solve some of the long term problems we have been having on the PC, those are things we can experiment and work with Mantle, this is another avenue, opening up something we're quite familiar with, we've spent the last few years working on next-gen consoles, even though we're not done with our work with it, I still see it as a success even right now because of these conversations and the amount of development and enthusiasm (and the opposite) - it's been a bit stale in the PC graphics space, MS switched focus for quite some time, but now going forward it's an exciting opportunity

It's more a science project for him.

 

[Kenmitch]

I wonder if AMD paid DICE more or less to use Mantle than nvidia paid Origin PC to smear AMD for them ?

Maybe they got 1st dibs on the 780 Ti....Guess we'll see next month.

Guess NVidia is timing the launch with the next gen consoles.

 

[chimaxi83]

Yes.



It's more a science project for him.

So just an assumption loosely based on what he said. Alright.

 

[desprado]

Where'd you get that from? Just because he said it'd be bad for everyone to have their own?

Than why AMD had made there API and he answered that all on Nvidia event i be dam.Of course Nvidia will try to counter Mantle if succeed but imo MS wont allow it through windows.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Than why AMD had made there API and he answered that all on Nvidia event i be dam.Of course Nvidia will try to counter Mantle if succeed but imo MS wont allow it through windows.

Mantle is compatible with the d3d hlsl. This leads me to believe that hand coded shaders for DX will simply work in mantle.

 

[Will Robinson]

Yes, after these bits it seems that Johan will abandon Mantle as soon as possible when MS and Khronos Group will start to modify their APIs.

LOL...this is gold

 

[desprado]

Mantle is compatible with the d3d hlsl. This leads me to believe that hand coded shaders for DX will simply work in mantle.

U meant to say they will copy the features of Dx11 and paste on there mantle but only the performance will be increased.So Ms can sue them for this.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

U meant to say they will copy the features of Dx11 and paste on there mantle but only the performance will be increased.So Ms can sue them for this.

So by your reasoning amd should sue Microsoft for not using mantle on their hardware in the Xbox?

I am not making it up that mantle supports the d3d hlsl. Its in the slides. As to the legality of it isn't d3d an open SDK?

 

[desprado]

So by your reasoning amd should sue Microsoft for not using mantle on their hardware in the Xbox?

I am not making it up that mantle supports the d3d hlsl. Its in the slides. As to the legality of it isn't d3d an open SDK?

If they copy any type of features of OpenGl or D3D than there come a law suit.Seriously there very strict law for this i hope AMD nows what what they are doing If they copy paste than it is dead from the start.Why MS allow them to use there application as there advantage which affect MS

 

[VulgarDisplay]

If they copy any type of features of OpenGl or D3D than there come a law suit.Seriously there very strict law for this i hope AMD nows what what they are doing If they copy paste than it is dead from the start.Why MS allow them to use there application as there advantage which affect MS

I see it as a benefit to MS as it keeps developers using D3D and not Open GL. It also keeps gamers on Windows because they don't feel the need to switch to Steam OS. They are not circumventing anything Microsoft lays out in Direct X features other than the abstraction layer which is where the overhead is. They are not copying anything either. Their GPU's have built in support for Direct X. If they didn't then Microsoft definitely wouldn't care because Direct X would not exist.

 

[desprado]

I see it as a benefit to MS as it keeps developers using D3D and not Open GL. It also keeps gamers on Windows because they don't feel the need to switch to Steam OS. They are not circumventing anything Microsoft lays out in Direct X features other than the abstraction layer which is where the overhead is. They are not copying anything either. Their GPU's have built in support for Direct X. If they didn't then Microsoft definitely wouldn't care because Direct X would not exist.

Let see how it goes if it threats MS in any terms than it Mantle is over on windows that for sure.

 

[3DVagabond]

Let see how it goes if it threats MS in any terms than it Mantle is over on windows that for sure.

Quit making stuff up and acting like there's any validity to it. AMD has already stated that M$ was fully informed about mantle.

 

[SPBHM]

"They wouldn't have to pay us" != "they didn't pay us." They didn't have to pay Kevin Smith to write a Superman script, he would have done it for free. He was paid for it though, and they didn't even use it.

http://*********/MH2hjhcfWic?t=1h22m53s

Mantle talks on the nvidia event.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Yes.



It's more a science project for him.

Basically he is saying it is a great advance if amd does it, but nobody else better do it, because that would be "bad". What a hypocryte.