The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

Yes, after these bits it seems that Johan will abandon Mantle as soon as possible when MS and Khronos Group will start to modify their APIs.

So nv holds their usual marketing event with jhh on stage wawing cards with no specs and this thread is poluted with nonsense with this psychological insight into johans brain beeing most off untill now. Imho its not contributing its just destruction or writing for a fight.

Mantle is more or less the same as the consoles. Often compatible else similar. And guess what. The developers will not abandon the consoles as they are a far bigger market than pc. Surprice.

All haters of mantle please go to threads like eg. Gsynch revolution or "mantle absolutely not xbox api - no way we write our own code". The talk about mantle beeing illigal to ms dx can go there to. Lol.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's obvious from reading all of these threads that AMD is not only the driving force in PC's, but they control every aspect of it.

1, They decide what nVidia's current and next flagship card will be and when it will be released.
2, They decide how much nVidia will charge for their cards.
3, They control what Intel's R&D will come up with next.
4, They will single handedly dismantle and fragment the entire gaming market.
5, They are going to do what OpenGL and others haven't been able to do and bring down M$ and DX.
6, They have no money, but they spend untold amounts on gaming bundles and buying devs. while selling their hardware at lower prices than the competition.
7, Add to that they are totally inept in all aspects of business, marketing, and software.

I say the world is damned lucky AMD sucks so hard. If they were even half way competent we'd all be their slaves.

 

[krumme]

Basically he is saying it is a great advance if amd does it, but nobody else better do it, because that would be "bad". What a hypocryte.

Does it matter?
The purpose of mantle is to ease ports from consoles.
Cgn/jaguar is on consoles. Mantle is more or less on consoles so to speak.
Everyone is free to make their own api. But it only makes sense because of consoles. So nobody have the incentive and means other than amd.
So its a moot point.

And btw didnt nv have their own nvapi? Your all forgot that? Thats gone a count as the most shortlived api to exist and probably to exist in this universe. 8 days or was it 10? Or was it because it did not exist in the first place and was only the usual marketing bs?

Nv huge marketing machine is going berserk with lipsticks.

 

[krumme]

It's obvious from reading all of these threads that AMD is not only the driving force in PC's, but they control every aspect of it.

1, They decide what nVidia's current and next flagship card will be and when it will be released.
2, They decide how much nVidia will charge for their cards.
3, They control what Intel's R&D will come up with next.
4, They will single handedly dismantle and fragment the entire gaming market.
5, They are going to do what OpenGL and others haven't been able to do and bring down M$ and DX.
6, They have no money, but they spend untold amounts on gaming bundles and buying devs. while selling their hardware at lower prices than the competition.
7, Add to that they are totally inept in all aspects of business, marketing, and software.

I say the world is damned lucky AMD sucks so hard. If they were even half way competent we'd all be their slaves.

Lol. Yeaa they are some crazy tech dudes.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Basically he is saying it is a great advance if amd does it, but nobody else better do it, because that would be "bad". What a hypocryte.

Because no one else has GPUs in every console.

 

[krumme]

I would evaluate mantle success after 2 years with the following. Most important first.

1. The extend of extra ports from consoles
2. The quality of the ports. Is it consolites or do they use the pc
3. The ability to play the games for entry level machines thereby creating a new segment
4. Performance gains for midrange/volume market
5. Performance gains for enthusiast gpu

 

[zlatan]

Yes, after these bits it seems that Johan will abandon Mantle as soon as possible when MS and Khronos Group will start to modify their APIs.

Everybody want that kind of future. Even Johan and AMD. The problem is that nobody working on this. For a new low-level standard API we need new kind of compatibility layers. Hardwares that supports the same virtual instructions, the same queueing and memory model, and other things.
MS and Khronos will be kindly helpful to create a standard low-level graphics API, but is there any foundation that want to standardize new solutions for compatibility? Ok HSA is a good project for this, but Intel and NV don't support that.
I think we need three or four years to standardize a good low-level graphics API.

The long-term future is bright, but in short-term Mantle will be the only option.

 

[bystander36]

Everybody want that kind of future. Even Johan and AMD. The problem is that nobody working on this. For a new low-level standard API we need new kind of compatibility layers. Hardwares that supports the same virtual instructions, the same queueing and memory model, and other things.
MS and Khronos will be kindly helpful to create a standard low-level graphics API, but is there any foundation that want to standardize new solutions for compatibility? Ok HSA is a good project for this, but Intel and NV don't support that.
I think we need three or four years to standardize a good low-level graphics API.

The long-term future is bright, but in short-term Mantle will be the only option.

Standardizing broad hardware with low level API's is a contradiction in terms.

High level API's are used to use lots of general hardware. Low level API's are used to get the most out of specific hardware. The two cannot merge.

You can improve and make the high level API's leaner, but you cannot do away with them without going to specific API's for different hardware.

 

[krumme]

Standardizing board hardware with low level API's is a contradiction in terms.

High level API's are used to use lots of general hardware. Low level API's are used to get the most out of specific hardware. The two cannot merge.

You can improve and make the high level API's leaner, but you cannot do away with them without going to specific API's for different hardware.

Mantle is build over same hardware. Its low and high level standardization on hardware and the software driving the hardware.

Its standadization and monopoly on the computing side giving access to more compettion and growth on the content side. Some call this fragmentation. But its not. Its standardization from the view of content side. And those with power defines perspective.

Some view this as its because amd got into all 3 consoles and beeing on pc side. But thats just a consequence of the drifting of power from hardware to content. EA dont want to pay for different hardware and api on the computing side. Its not their interest.

We dont know if mantle derivatives is the standard in 6 years. But the trend towards a monopolization and low level standardization is here to stay imho. EA and Sony want the profit, so to speak.

 

[bystander36]

Mantle is build over same hardware. Its low and high level standardization on hardware and the software driving the hardware.

Its standadization and monopoly on the computing side giving access to more compettion and growth on the content side. Some call this fragmentation. But its not. Its standardization from the view of content side. And those with power defines perspective.

Some view this as its because amd got into all 3 consoles and beeing on pc side. But thats just a consequence of the drifting of power from hardware to content. EA dont want to pay for different hardware and api on the computing side. Its not their interest.

We dont know if mantle derivatives is the standard in 6 years. But the trend towards a monopolization and low level standardization is here to stay imho. EA and Sony want the profit, so to speak.

You are not talking about standardization of existing hardware, but the possibility of a monopoly. You have to kick out Intel and Nvidia, and older hardware for that to be standardized, and AMD would have to stick with the same basic architecture.

 

[krumme]

You are not talking about standardization of existing hardware, but the possibility of a monopoly. You have to kick out Intel and Nvidia, and older hardware for that to be standardized, and AMD would have to stick with the same basic architecture.

I am talking about standardization of hardware to the degree of beeing 95% similar for developing games to the low level hardware. Yes it demands cgn and mantle like driver/api and x86. Obviously nv is not there. Thats the nature of the business.

The consoles is 99% the same. By all means this is the situation where its all the same.
"Often compatible" the rest "similar"
In that sense Ryans wording is in order: THE API
Standardization all way through is here. And its rolling.

We just dont know if it will survive and be a success in the comming years.

 

[bystander36]

I am talking about standardization of hardware to the degree of beeing 95% similar for developing games to the low level hardware. Yes it demands cgn and mantle like driver/api and x86. Obviously nv is not there. Thats the nature of the business.

The consoles is 99% the same. By all means this is the situation where its all the same.
"Often compatible" the rest "similar"
In that sense Ryans wording is in order: THE API
Standardization all way through is here. And its rolling.

We just dont know if it will survive and be a success in the comming years.

You do not want all companies but AMD to die. Progress will slow down even more, and prices will rise. And it would not be allowed to happen with the Anti-trust laws.

We are much better off with a standardized API, like DX or OpenGL than one company to rule everything.

 

[frozentundra123456]

You do not want all companies but AMD to die. Progress will slow down even more, and prices will rise. And it would not be allowed to happen with the Anti-trust laws.

We are much better off with a standardized API, like DX or OpenGL than one company to rule everything.

Yea, interesting that some who most criticize Intel/MS as a so called monopoly, and state over and over again how important competition is, now think it is great progress when AMD is trying to do it. Personally I dont think the benefits will be great enough to lock out nVidia, but it is a disturbing possibility.

Edit: I am not a fan of nVidia. I am using an AMD care, and at this time, I think AMD is the best value in most segments.

 

[krumme]

You do not want all companies but AMD to die. Progress will slow down even more, and prices will rise. And it would not be allowed to happen with the Anti-trust laws.

We are much better off with a standardized API, like DX or OpenGL than one company to rule everything.

We all want competition. And in this situation a good argument against mantle is certainly that. Some have argued that it could lead to lesser dx development and i am quite sure that is what will happen. Thats where ea will get some of the money. Its good arguments that get drowned in all kind of bs about mantle.

But as much as we want compettition as consumers this market is what economist call a "natural monopoly" market. X86 and intel is a perfect example of that also; the cost for design and process development is so high its natural that it gets concentrated to one player.

The console and mantle is the excact same development imho. It got upsides and it gots downsides. But look at in more than 5 years perspective. Dx was a monopoly. Probably mantle will take a huge part of its place because its far superior. But the day comes when mantle will be replaced to.

It happens for all standards. X86 will have its days to. So even if they are very monopoly like they get changed or irrelevant by time.

 

[Obsoleet]

So in summary: Mantle is bad news for Nvidia. Good news for AMD. No other way to slice it.
And of course, AMD putting x86 in 3 of 4 next gen consoles is good for Intel.

So the only bigtime loser here is Nvidia.

 

[bystander36]

So in summary: Mantle is bad news for Nvidia. Good news for AMD. No other way to slice it.
And of course, AMD putting x86 in 3 of 4 next gen consoles is good for Intel.

So the only bigtime loser here is Nvidia.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Mantle would only cause Nvidia problems is if it became very popular and actually had significant performance gains. That remains to be seen.

 

[Techhog]

So in summary: Mantle is bad news for Nvidia. Good news for AMD. No other way to slice it.
And of course, AMD putting x86 in 3 of 4 next gen consoles is good for Intel.

So the only bigtime loser here is Nvidia.

Huh?

 

[frozentundra123456]

If mantle is widely adopted and if it is a huge performance improvement, obviously NV will be a loser, but I would say it would hurt intel as well, by making their igps less competitive against AMD. But those "ifs" are big ones. We have to get real data on an improvement in a wide variety of games and see the adoption rate before we know the true effect. We will have some indication after the BF4 patch, but I would say that is best case for Mantle, since AMD worked so closely with Dice on that game.

 

[3DVagabond]

If mantle is widely adopted and if it is a huge performance improvement, obviously NV will be a loser, but I would say it would hurt intel as well, by making their igps less competitive against AMD. But those "ifs" are big ones. We have to get real data on an improvement in a wide variety of games and see the adoption rate before we know the true effect. We will have some indication after the BF4 patch, but I would say that is best case for Mantle, since AMD worked so closely with Dice on that game.

I doubt M$ will sit back and let Mantle destroy DX. Assuming it's good it will make M$ get off of their butts and make DX better. They can do it. They just need to be motivated. :sneaky:

 

[bystander36]

I doubt M$ will sit back and let Mantle destroy DX. Assuming it's good it will make M$ get off of their butts and make DX better. They can do it. They just need to be motivated. :sneaky:

Why is it people feel MS is sitting on their butt with DX? They've made lots of improvements with it over the years, and still do. Their only big problem is they keep locking it to their latest OS.

 

[3DVagabond]

Why is it people feel MS is sitting on their butt with DX? They've made lots of improvements with it over the years, and still do. Their only big problem is they keep locking it to their latest OS.

Because of the overhead that all of the devs have been bitching about. If there is truly no way to substantially reduce it, then M$ is screwed. I don't believe this though. I think M$ can improve the efficiency of DX. It's just until now (assuming Mantle pans out) they haven't needed to.

 

[bystander36]

Because of the overhead that all of the devs have been bitching about. If there is truly no way to substantially reduce it, then M$ is screwed. I don't believe this though. I think M$ can improve the efficiency of DX. It's just until now (assuming Mantle pans out) they haven't needed to.

People are making a big deal about Mantle, don't get so caught up in.

When dealing with 3 different venders and many different architectures and different levels of raw power, it is required to have some overhead.

Consoles are uniform, making it possible for dev's to get the most out of them, but PC's are far from it, and we just have to live with it, unless you expect dev's to create a different engine for every architecture made.

The dev's are mentioning the same thing. It would be great to have low level access, but it would cause fragmentation, which is very bad. The hope is Mantle is close enough to the console code, they won't have to rewrite too much to consider it not worth it.

 

[Creig]

Consoles are uniform, making it possible for dev's to get the most out of them, but PC's are far from it, and we just have to live with it, unless you expect dev's to create a different engine for every architecture made.

Except now GCN equipped PCs can be 'uniform' with consoles as well because of Mantle. That's the whole point. Coding on next gen consoles can be ported almost directly to work on 7000 series and newer AMD video cards. Since it's low level API programming, it should be faster than a DX path.

 

[tential]

Huh?

Ya what's the 4th next gen console?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Ya what's the 4th next gen console?

What's the 3rd? Certainly not the Wii U....