The AMD Mantle Thread

Page 47 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
You assume that Mantle will be more bug ridden than the other code paths apparently.

Since it's all assumption at this point I've decided to be optimistic about Mantle instead of pessimistic like you.

I'm just going off of past experience. When ever you add more code paths, more problems come about. Listen to what dev's are saying about it. They seem to feel the same way. While some seem excited to get to low level code, they still recognize the fragmentation that occurs.
 
Last edited:

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
I'm just going off of past experience. When ever you add more code paths, more problems come about. Listen to what dev's are saying about it. They seem to feel the same way. While some seem excited to get to low level code, they still recognize the fragmentation that occurs.

But this is highly dependent on:
  1. The size of the team
  2. The time available
  3. How well souce is managed

I've worked on large embedded code bases with many SKUs (Enterprise Networking) and it's not really that hard if you have enough people, enough time and a small team dedicated to providing source code management. In a small team environment, it would be awful.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
But this is highly dependent on:
  1. The size of the team
  2. The time available
  3. How well souce is managed

I've worked on large embedded code bases with many SKUs (Enterprise Networking) and it's not really that hard if you have enough people, enough time and a small team dedicated to providing source code management. In a small team environment, it would be awful.

Amd planned this several years back. The platform and detailed structure for managing is surely in place a long time ago and the organizational setup beeing one of the first things that was in place here.
 
Last edited:

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
Amd planned this several years back. The platform and detailed structure for managing is surely in place a long time ago and the organizational setup beeing one of the first things that was in place here.

No, this sort of thing is managed mainly by the developers of game engines.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
No, this sort of thing is managed mainly by the developers of game engines.

Wrong. This time its a colaboration. Its not like prior situations. The point is this was handled years back. We know the talks started 2 years before cgn hit us. So 4 years ago. Gives time to make the right setup for all partners. And that extra time is needed because there is more players. Thats why the tools is not even quite finished yet.
 

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
0
0
From AMD's website: http://community.amd.com/community/...0/17/the-four-core-principles-of-amd-s-mantle

"Mantle represents years of collaborative effort between the gaming industry and AMD, and it comes at their request."

Guess that explains this rather mysterious result at Digital Foundry from last April ...

"We approached a number of developers on and off the record - each of whom has helped to ship multi-million-selling, triple-A titles - asking them whether an Intel or AMD processor offers the best way to future-proof a games PC built in the here and now. Bearing in mind the historical dominance Intel has enjoyed, the results are intriguing - all of them opted for the FX-8350 over the current default enthusiast's choice, the Core i5 3570K."

"And while the initial iteration of Mantle is intended specifically for PCs, it has been designed from the beginning to be extensible to other platforms as well."

!!! Linux/Steam OS !!!

"Mantle aside, the gaming industry’s practical standardization on the Graphics Core Next architecture alleviates a considerable burden on developers. Developers are now significantly less concerned with learning the intimate inner-workings of half a dozen graphics architectures, and that affords them with the opportunity to spend more time on making a game look great or run great."

Interestingly hegemonic tone.

"Mantle will be exposing a large variety of hardware features not currently available in existing graphics APIs. Those features will be used to improve graphics performance and to allow new graphics algorithms to be implemented."

Appears some brand new never before seen PC graphics effects are on the not too distant horizon.

"As a company, we do not chase one or two percentage points of performance when we set our minds to a project as elaborate and historic as Mantle. While it remains too early to disclose performance figures, we expect you will be pleasantly surprised when Battlefield™ 4 is patched to support Mantle in December. And with a Mantle back-end baked into Frostbite™ 3 you can expect other games based on this engine to reap all of its benefits."

I'm thinking 'pleasantly surprised' will be a considerable understatement.

... and how many more engines will be 'baking in' a Mantle back end?

"Developers using Mantle are free to implement whatever optimizations they choose to maximize the performance of their game for everyone. Now, more than ever, Mantle assures that the choices a developer must make to optimize their game code for the leading PC graphics architectures are non-interfering choices."

... all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others ...

"With that in mind, there is still much to be said on Mantle, and we will do that at the AMD Developer Summit (APU13), hosted at the San Jose Convention Center from November 11 to 13. Johan Andersson, Chief Architect at DICE, will be presenting a keynote about Mantle at APU13 and you can expect exciting new Mantle partner announcements as well."

Dying to see their partner line-up ... and the list of games in the Mantle pipeline.

Though maybe not as much as JHH is. :whiste:

IF most of the major engines will be incorporating Mantle, most of the major developers utilize Mantle and AMD is working on a Linux version of Mantle, I would think Valve will be coming under considerable pressure to standardize on AMD GCN architecture - and AMD APUs/CPUs. From the major publishers and developers point of view a brand new gaming platform is the perfect time to lock in the very streamlined, inexpensive and yet most powerful Mantle version as the sole porting action they have to take to put their game on that platform.
 
Last edited:

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Pheww. That was a lot of marketing talk. I recommend ryans last piece of that as he have destilled the important.

Ps4 is running on variation of linux kernel.

I think its important to differentiate steam from this.

Steam is a gamers software and os platform. On linux its about trying to get rid of ms tax and the ms platform for games.

Mantle and ps4, xbox is about standardization of the hardware to the low level lowering cost for porting and quality of the ports.

Ofcource steam will be able to use mantle on linux but you can enjoy it on your pc now.

I can see nv is trying to blow their steam relation up for linux. Fine because they historically had good linux drivers as i recall. But mantle is perfect for steam on linux because of the work already done to support sony.
 

Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
0
0
"We approached a number of developers on and off the record - each of whom has helped to ship multi-million-selling, triple-A titles - asking them whether an Intel or AMD processor offers the best way to future-proof a games PC built in the here and now. Bearing in mind the historical dominance Intel has enjoyed, the results are intriguing - all of them opted for the FX-8350 over the current default enthusiast's choice, the Core i5 3570K."
What a very,very interesting quote.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
What a very,very interesting quote.

Yes, if it didnt come from AMD, a company with a track record of blatant lying




You too, have too many infractions in too short a time.

This bickering reminds me of children fighting on the playground.

Knock of the baiting with this inflammatory posting of yours.

Take a couple days off, courtesy of me, the FD.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
Yes, if it didnt come from AMD, a company with a track record of blatant lying

One would ask if someone is paying you for all this




Stop with the insults. Now you've been here a very short time and have accumulated too many infractions.

I am issuing you 2 days off to think about stopping the insults.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
Last edited by a moderator:

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
0
0
Pheww. That was a lot of marketing talk. I recommend ryans last piece of that as he have destilled the important.

Ps4 is running on variation of linux kernel.

I think its important to differentiate steam from this.

Steam is a gamers software and os platform. On linux its about trying to get rid of ms tax and the ms platform for games.

Mantle and ps4, xbox is about standardization of the hardware to the low level lowering cost for porting and quality of the ports.

Ofcource steam will be able to use mantle on linux but you can enjoy it on your pc now.

I can see nv is trying to blow their steam relation up for linux. Fine because they historically had good linux drivers as i recall. But mantle is perfect for steam on linux because of the work already done to support sony.

It's a matter of how the publishers and developers are seeing it. If the major engines incorporate a Mantle back end that includes a Linux path the ideal from THEIR point of view is a single easy port that still provides the most stellar gaming experience on a hardware cost/performance basis. Most or even all of the coding optimizations and work they HAVE to put into the consoles can easily be ported to Steam OS.

They don't sell hardware, for the developers and publishers having to additionally provide high level ports to cover all PC hardware bases is just an additional and unnecessary expense on a new gaming/OS platform that could be based on the same hardware the consoles contain.

Granted Valve has already committed to a very open ecosystem and it's highly unlikely Gabe will change that, but that doesn't mean the developers and publishers aren't pressuring him to go with a single architectural ecosystem that will add considerably to their bottom line and provide a far better gaming experience on far cheaper hardware that will drive sales of their games to a wider audience.

Keep in mind the Mantle advantage will be in force for the better part of a decade. Game engines that incorporate multiple Mantle platform paths will enable publishers and developers to provide very high quality ports for Windows and Linux for years at very little cost. Past that there's ARM/Android. AMD is coming out with a GCN based ARM chip for servers in 2013 and there are rumors of consumer chip. Whether or not that happens, it's a near certainty there will be a 64bit GCN ARM consumer chip in 2014 and AMD can just add an Android path to Mantle. Same goes for any future platform that catches on. Meego is still in play and Samsung is developing Tizen.

AMD has a highly capable Semi-custom division. In addition to making a line of their own GCN ARM based chips, they can make custom chips combining third party IP with AMD IP. Qualcomm for instance could make a GCN based ARM chip with their proprietary ARM implementation that could run 'hard core' games inexpensively ported to Android using Mantle.

For that matter just about anyone with the cash and desire could buy a GCN based chip from AMD and in short order have an inexpensive killer gaming system running an existing ecosystem of Mantle ported games.

One of the last slides in the DICE presentation at the AMD Hawaii event contained this line: "Super excited about Mantle!"

http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/battlefield-4-frostbite-3-mantle

Emphasis not mine, it was on the slide. That is a significantly strong statement. That slide also contained this line: "Tons of ideas going forward "

Again, the smiley face was on the slide.

Another factor to consider is AMD's collaborations with CiiNow, G-Cluster Global and Otoy cloud gaming service providers. In 2014 AMD will be able to provide both state of the art low power GCN ARM based servers and GCN based x86 Sea Micro servers to their cloud gaming partners.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/workstation/cloud/Pages/cloud-gaming.aspx#5

What stands out is there is a whole lot more to Mantle than what's been revealed so far and more generally AMD has a wide array of highly effective cross synergies in motion that provide significant advantages to a wide array of players in the gaming space and AMD appears to have every conceivable gaming angle covered.

What also stands out is Anand clearly got a presentation from AMD that convinced him AMD is the future of gaming and the recent site redesign is clearly, and very cleverly, done to continuously associate AnandTech with AMD in the minds of site visitors. The eye is almost irresistibly drawn to that red AMD CENTER box immediately after the initial look at the AnandTech logo.
 
Last edited:

rainy

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
514
439
136
How about you, do you have any or is it simply another personal attack?

It's funny you have said that because it is enough to look at history of your posts (especially lately) to make a quite obvious conclusion....

Warning issued for thread crapping.
-- stahlhart
 
Last edited by a moderator:

psoomah

Senior member
May 13, 2010
416
0
0
What a very,very interesting quote.

This 'MANTLE IN FROSTBITE' slide pertains: http://cdn2.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Mantle-in-Frostbite.jpg

Especially this part ...

Superb CPU performance.
_Very low overhead rendering, loading and streaming.
_Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores.
_Avoid bottlenecking the GPU and the system.

Gamers running FX systems are going to feel a whole lot better about their gaming rig post APU13 and the BF3 Mantle update.

How strange will it be for AMD FX CPUs to suddenly become THE hot processors for next gen PC gaming?
 
Last edited:
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
This 'MANTLE IN FROSTBITE' slide pertains: http://cdn2.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Mantle-in-Frostbite.jpg

Especially this part ...

Superb CPU performance.
_Very low overhead rendering, loading and streaming.
_Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores.
_Avoid bottlenecking the GPU and the system.

Gamers running FX systems are going to feel a whole lot better about their gaming rig post APU13 and the BF3 Mantle update.

How strange will it be for AMD FX CPUs to suddenly become THE hot processors for next gen PC gaming?

Big predictions, but only speculation/wishful thinking at this point. We have no data yet at all what mantle will bring, much less how the different cpus will perform in a wide variety of games, or how many games will incorporate mantle at all.

We dont even know how much mantle will bring in GPU performance.

As to the statement of the developers that FX cpu is the most future proof, that statement has been beaten to death in another thread already. It basically in an unsubstantiated statement by unnamed sources. Especially if the developers were part of the Gaming Evolved program, you would hardly expect them to recommend intel processors.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
As to the statement of the developers that FX cpu is the most future proof, that statement has been beaten to death in another thread already. It basically in an unsubstantiated statement by unnamed sources. Especially if the developers were part of the Gaming Evolved program, you would hardly expect them to recommend intel processors.

Tomb Raider(big GE title) recomended spec:
Processor: Quad core CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955, Intel Core i5-750
http://www.tombraider.com/us/base/home?refer=19

Games being optimized for amd will put their CPU higher in the hierarchy than they were before.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
2
76
Tomb Raider(big GE title) recomended spec:
Processor: Quad core CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955, Intel Core i5-750
http://www.tombraider.com/us/base/home?refer=19

Games being optimized for amd will put their CPU higher in the hierarchy than they were before.

Doubtful. This will benefit Intel CPU's as much as AMD. Unless they pull an Intel and actually ruin Intel performance intentionally with a Vendor check.
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
931
160
106
This 'MANTLE IN FROSTBITE' slide pertains: http://cdn2.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Mantle-in-Frostbite.jpg

Especially this part ...

Superb CPU performance.
_Very low overhead rendering, loading and streaming.
_Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores.
_Avoid bottlenecking the GPU and the system.

Gamers running FX systems are going to feel a whole lot better about their gaming rig post APU13 and the BF3 Mantle update.

How strange will it be for AMD FX CPUs to suddenly become THE hot processors for next gen PC gaming?

I'm mostly interested in seeing how much the lower overhead will benefit the older/slower CPUs. Core 2 Quads and Phenom II X4s were really showing their age already in BF3
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |