The AMD Mantle Thread

[beginner99]

In that the 290X already is some 20% faster than a single Titan in BF4 without Mantle being applied, and will probably beat SLI Titan after the Mantle patch. That's at the same settings of course.

I doubt you actually believe that yourself. Let's get real. Devs would not put mantle support into their product if it was useless even if AMD pays for it. And if AMD hypes it and all there is is a 5% gain, this hype would blow up in their face and they know it.

However expecting single 290x to beat SLI titan is just as ridiculous. Look at BF4 on consoles. There is no magic. PC obviously has better IQ. and 60 fps at 900p is nothing amazing for a 7870 class GPU.

My guess is you see something like 10-20% improvement max. Probably on the top end of the range on older hardware (CPUs) due to draw call issues and less on haswell i7.

 

[krumme]

The power between content providers and hardware providers have tilted to the content providers side. They want to use their money on content that sells games not money on different hardware and that includes the old and inefficient dx dog.

I dont think jhh feels okey in that content supporting role anyway. But now he has to look at it from the outside and invent something new. And that that does not include the usual more fancy, and agressive marketing campains bordering on the illigal. But he is good at thinking innovative and he predicted this situation for the industry long time ago. But hardly that he was not the leading factor lol.

 

[smackababy]

It's always funny to see that the Mantle negativity consistently comes from the same core group of AMD bashers. Why not keep open minds? I'm not getting my hopes up, but at the same time, I look forward to the possibilities. I guess you need the capability of being unbiased.

People who have voice valid concerns over Mantle (lack of any real numbers other than AMD marketing slides, ease of use for developers outside of those sponsored by AMD, and fracturing of code optimization) are always met by fanboys making outrageous claims like Mantle will make a 7870 beat Titan SLI.

And then you have the people who continuously claim a console game will be Mantle ready, despite them all using incredibly different APIs.

I think if anything good comes out of this, it will be either OpenGL or DX adopting a new "let developers code to the metal" stance. I think DX would be in an incredibly advantageous position if they developed into their API the ability to make direct draw calls and skip their entire processing process. I have no doubt MS could leverage card makers to support, in driver, these calls (otherwise they aren't DX 12 compatible!).

But, that all depends on exactly how much extra performance optimizing to Mantle gives and how much development towards DX wanes. If Mantle ends up giving minor performance gains and is adopted as much as PhysX, yet another proprietary "feature" will be laughed at.

What I am most interested in is how AMD actually does with the SDK. They aren't known for their well programmed and thought out software.

 

[wand3r3r]

I'm not 100% sure what I think about Mantle yet.

I see obvious reasons for AMD to push it, they are (GCN) in the consoles, they are simply bringing/using optimizations across the PC/Xbox/PS.

The obvious drawback is vendor specific optimizations.

I don't think Physx will succeed as long as it's only added by paying developers to include it. Physx for example would have a lot more potential if they both built on it and it was included everywhere, then it could be more than some cloth awkwardly flapping in the breeze, or liquid that only breaks in blobs.

I guess Mantle will be similar in a way, however the consoles ensure that ports will be coming for years, so they have a guaranteed ~7(?) years with support. In that way I'd say Mantle has a real chance to be in the market for a long time. Yeah Physx and Mantle are two completely different things, however at this point they are exclusive which is the similarity I refer to.

The thing is that if only one vendor is optimized, half of the market loses something. Ideally (imo) NV will implement the API themselves and gamers are back on level ground.

On the other hand, NV and the insistent followers keep pushing "exclusive" features, regardless of how gimmicky they are. NV is the leader of trying to exclude the other imo, so in a way they get a dose of their own medicine. They are trying to do gsync and certain people are thrilled about it, yet at the same time they complain about mantle. This goalpost shifting (on both sides) is annoying and reeks of marketing imo (it may be the supporting ones own purchase?). I don't want to be 'forced' to buy a certain manufacturers card (for whatever reason) since you know what that will do to prices.

That said, the way the gaming companies are starting to portray it sure sounds appealing. I'm guess it will be a significant improvement over current Dx versions of the same game. If nothing else it should be easier to port games over or offer benefits ($/time/other?) to the developers for them to come out and speak highly of it?

 

[Erenhardt]

However expecting single 290x to beat SLI titan is just as ridiculous.

Funny you used the same words, that AMD (?) used to hint Mantle improvements.

 

[DownTheSky]

Star Citizen using Mantle more or less confirms that support will be built in to Cryengine as well.

Just wanted to add that it seems Crytek has jumped in the Mantle wagon as well.

 

[3DVagabond]

Those are words straight from AMD themselves. Of course they are going to make it seem like the second coming of Christ. It would concern me if they didn't.

Ever heard of hype?

Uh, last I knew...

Chris Roberts, CEO, Cloud Imperium Games
David Anfossi, studio head, Eidos-Montreal
Dan Baker, co-founder, Oxide Games

...are not from AMD.



In that the 290X already is some 20% faster than a single Titan in BF4 without Mantle being applied, and will probably beat SLI Titan after the Mantle patch. That's at the same settings of course.

Does DX even support all of the features that Mantle does? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Mantle, to unlock all of the hardware's features? To not be limited to DX features?

Ok, let me rephrase backpedal and completely change what I said, but I'll try and make it look like I'm saying the same thing.

Those are words straight from people who will benefit from the hype themselves. Of course they are going to make it seem like the second coming of Christ. It would concern me if they didn't.

Ever heard of hype?

FTFY. ...and yes, hype is exaggerating something. You can hype something down as well, which is no better. What I want to know is why you feel the need to do that? You do say, "Those are words straight from people who will benefit from the hype themselves." Are you benefiting from your hype? It doesn't appear that you get anything out of it at all except to bring negativity to the thread. Is that why you are posting, simply to be negative about Mantle? Becfause, that's the way it seams.

Was that it? The "broad support of several developers"? So its still up to DICE to carry the entire Mantle project.

RIF

There are obviously other Devs on board. I'll ask you, why the desire to make false claims about something? I for one am stoked it's in Star Citizen. That game is going to be brilliant.

 

[DownTheSky]

I doubt you actually believe that yourself. Let's get real. Devs would not put mantle support into their product if it was useless even if AMD pays for it. And if AMD hypes it and all there is is a 5% gain, this hype would blow up in their face and they know it.

However expecting single 290x to beat SLI titan is just as ridiculous. Look at BF4 on consoles. There is no magic. PC obviously has better IQ. and 60 fps at 900p is nothing amazing for a 7870 class GPU.

My guess is you see something like 10-20% improvement max. Probably on the top end of the range on older hardware (CPUs) due to draw call issues and less on haswell i7.

The main limitation for consoles is the weak CPU, not the GPU. Just look how much BF4 scales with the CPU then compare an 8350 with top end intels. Console CPUs are 3 times weaker than that.

 

[Phynaz]

Well we know that there will not be a single Unreal Engine 4 (or Unreal Engine 3) game with with "Mantle" support.

How do we know? Has every Unreal licensee said they will not build in Mantle support?

 

[ShintaiDK]

I for one am stoked it's in Star Citizen. That game is going to be brilliant.

When is Star Citizen coming? Isnt it still like 1½ year or more away?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Does DX even support all of the features that Mantle does? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Mantle, to unlock all of the hardware's features? To not be limited to DX features?

What features should it unlock? And what about OpenGL?

So far Mantle is only about reducing CPU overhead on draw calls. Alternatively AMD could just make a DX driver with DX11 command list feature instead to help reduce that limitation.

 

[l2ez4m]

Well we know that there will not be a single Unreal Engine 4 (or Unreal Engine 3) game ... using Mantle

... and yet Thief is on Unreal :3

 

[chimaxi83]

What features should it unlock? And what about OpenGL?

So far Mantle is only about reducing CPU overhead on draw calls. Alternatively AMD could just make a DX driver with DX11 command list feature instead to help reduce that limitation.

You should send that recommendation to AMD engineers. It sounds like they're doing it wrong.

 

[Gloomy]

Does DX even support all of the features that Mantle does? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Mantle, to unlock all of the hardware's features? To not be limited to DX features?

Isn't the whole point of Mantle that it is less abstract and more fine-grained?

If so, why would it have more or even as many features? After all, assembly doesn't have more features than C++...

 

[Phynaz]

In that the 290X already is some 20% faster than a single Titan in BF4 without Mantle being applied, and will probably beat SLI Titan after the Mantle patch. That's at the same settings of course.

I look forward to it.

 

[96Firebird]

FTFY. ...and yes, hype is exaggerating something. You can hype something down as well, which is no better. What I want to know is why you feel the need to do that? You do say, "Those are words straight from people who will benefit from the hype themselves." Are you benefiting from your hype? It doesn't appear that you get anything out of it at all except to bring negativity to the thread. Is that why you are posting, simply to be negative about Mantle? Becfause, that's the way it seams.

You claimed to have "fixed" what I wrote, but all you really did was put words in my mouth. And, as you may know, that is a low form of debate.

I don't gain anything from this. But I can call out hype when I see it. Just another "wait and see" tactic...

 

[3DVagabond]

When is Star Citizen coming? Isnt it still like 1½ year or more away?

It's a bit more complicated than simply a release date. Here's some info since you asked.

 

[3DVagabond]

What features should it unlock? And what about OpenGL?

So far Mantle is only about reducing CPU overhead on draw calls. Alternatively AMD could just make a DX driver with DX11 command list feature instead to help reduce that limitation.

You really need to read up more.

 

[3DVagabond]

Isn't the whole point of Mantle that it is less abstract and more fine-grained?

If so, why would it have more or even as many features? After all, assembly doesn't have more features than C++...

They said that Mantle will give direct access to every GPU feature. So, it won't have less features, but if the GPU has any features that aren't available with DX or OpenGL, then they could be accessed through Mantle. Whether there are any now or not, I don't know. It's nice to know they aren't limited by DX as to features. Should stop M$ from locking out features just to make you upgrade Windows to get it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's a bit more complicated than simply a release date. Here's some info since you asked.

So its still a game that may or may not become anything. And may or may not contain what it promises. Well, lets see in 2015 or later what happens with it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You really need to read up more.

Why dont you list it instead? What does Mantle bring besides more draw calls (CPU) that DX/OpenGL cant do?

 

[ShintaiDK]

They said that Mantle will give direct access to every GPU feature. So, it won't have less features, but if the GPU has any features that aren't available with DX or OpenGL, then they could be accessed through Mantle. Whether there are any now or not, I don't know. It's nice to know they aren't limited by DX as to features. Should stop M$ from locking out features just to make you upgrade Windows to get it.

There are plenty of DX features that is not related to hardware. Will Mantle support these? Or will it be a step backwards? And what about OpenGL?

 

[3DVagabond]

You claimed to have "fixed" what I wrote, but all you really did was put words in my mouth. And, as you may know, that is a low form of debate.

I don't gain anything from this. But I can call out hype when I see it. Just another "wait and see" tactic...

What words did I put in your mouth. You made a completely inaccurate and false statement. When it was pointed out you then changed it but still made it sound like your original point was valid that it was straight from AMD's mouth. In reality you simply made that up to try and discredit what was said.

 

[3DVagabond]

There are plenty of DX features that is not related to hardware. Will Mantle support these? Or will it be a step backwards? And what about OpenGL?

So you are saying DX can make the hardware use features it doesn't support? I'm not sure how that works. Can you explain?

 

[ShintaiDK]

So you are saying DX can make the hardware use features it doesn't support? I'm not sure how that works. Can you explain?

No I said there are DX features that is not related to hardware.

So again, since you are so sure. What features will Mantle unlock that isnt already supported? And will mantle support all current features?