The AMD Mantle Thread

Page 74 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

selni

Senior member
Oct 24, 2013
249
0
41
Just because it's not specifically GCN only, doesn't mean that Kepler can run it. It just might simply mean that AMD can continue to advance their architecture beyond GCN and maintain Mantle compatibility, and that other companies could design Mantle compatible hardware.

Yeah I know - that's why I said efficiently. It's hard to read much into anything currently given it's all PR fluff.

A lot of the talk here makes no sense without getting broader support though - eg on the oxide presentation - you can't get rid of all the DX designarounds/unit limits etc without abandoning DX entirely, and without both AMD and nvidia supporting the same API that doesn't seem likely to happen - who's going to design a game that only 10% of the PC market can run?

I'm not saying nvidia will support it - I think that's unlikely if for no other reason than it's from AMD, but if the DX limitations are so bad they seriously impact game design - well, it's not just a matter of swapping out DX for a mantle renderer.
 
Last edited:

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Yeah I know - that's why I said efficiently. It's hard to read much into anything currently given it's all PR fluff.

I don't know whether it's Rory, or somebody else at AMD, but there's a poker player pulling the marketing strings. They're keeping their cards very close to the vest, right now.
 

Imouto

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2011
1,241
2
81
If this is going to insufflate life again into those ancient C2D/Q Intel is going to be really pissed. Gaming was barely the sole reason to upgrade them.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
If this is going to insufflate life again into those ancient C2D/Q Intel is going to be really pissed. Gaming was barely the sole reason to upgrade them.

It'll help I imagine, but it looks like Mantle likes moar cores. So, i7's might actually show a marked enough advantage to actually get people to buy the more expensive CPU's
 

Imouto

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2011
1,241
2
81
It'll help I imagine, but it looks like Mantle likes moar cores. So, i7's might actually show a marked enough advantage to actually get people to buy the more expensive CPU's

Well, I meant ppl still running Core 2 systems. If they want to keep it cheap a lesser CGN card would be enough to keep rocking. Low profile, I know, but way better than before. Now you can pair an overclocked Q6600 with a GTX 560 level of performance card and Mantle could extend that way higher.

As for Sandy Bridge and upper, well, those won't need to replace their computer until it fall to pieces.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
Well, I meant ppl still running Core 2 systems. If they want to keep it cheap a lesser CGN card would be enough to keep rocking. Low profile, I know, but way better than before. Now you can pair an overclocked Q6600 with a GTX 560 level of performance card and Mantle could extend that way higher.

As for Sandy Bridge and upper, well, those won't need to replace their computer until it fall to pieces.

Only in games that support Mantle, others it will be a very underwhelming system and only when it comes to CPU performance. I still don't see anything that indicates a real tangible increase in graphics performance outside of reduced draw calls.

This is now the second big reveal, and still no slide addresses increased GPU performance when not talking about draw call reduction.

It is unlikely Mantle will take over the world, however it seems much more likely that what Mantle does will find it's way into DX12 allowing all three vendors to benefit.

The obvious benefit for AMD is their moar core strategy, however they're still behind as it seems the i7/8350 are at least in these slides pulling 50k draw calls, whereas the socket 2011 x6 is pulling 80k.

At first I thought AMD was simply trying to kill their x86 future, but the more I think about it the more it is likely that draw calls will continue to be pushed to the point where people will desire cpu upgrades in the future. It also gives x86 a more parallel path than what we were currently set on which was specially devoted to per core not more cores.

IMO Mantle discussion should be moved to the CPU forum, since at least so far after two big reveals from AMD and their partners the entire focus has been on draw calls and cpu related overhead, and barely anything "Film Quality Motion Bur" related to GPU performance advantages.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
This is now the second big reveal, and still no slide addresses increased GPU performance when not talking about draw call reduction.

Their game demo, screen filled with units. "Up to 3 times faster with Mantle". Sounds like a big deal. For RTS games its a massive lifting of the bottleneck.

We shall have to wait and see what it does for more grunty FPS games.

If you look at the slides, and have a keen eye, seeing that the GPU is now involved in setting up a frame, taking the load off the CPU tremendously and reducing the time it takes to render such a frame by 3 times.. is a big deal for graphics.

Edit: But feel free to continue harping your negativity. Just like all your NV buddies who as recent as a few days ago were still claiming nobody outside DICE is gonna use it.. look how wrong they all are.
 
Last edited:

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Man, I must say that I was against Mantle in the beginning, but it looks like I'm starting to come around

I had no idea that the API bottleneck was this bad, and what it meant for games. I can imagine that games could become far more detailed and varied in terms of what is presented on the screen with the API bottleneck greatly reduced..
 

Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
0
0
Only in games that support Mantle, others it will be a very underwhelming system and only when it comes to CPU performance. I still don't see anything that indicates a real tangible increase in graphics performance outside of reduced draw calls.

This is now the second big reveal, and still no slide addresses increased GPU performance when not talking about draw call reduction.

It is unlikely Mantle will take over the world, however it seems much more likely that what Mantle does will find it's way into DX12 allowing all three vendors to benefit.

The obvious benefit for AMD is their moar core strategy, however they're still behind as it seems the i7/8350 are at least in these slides pulling 50k draw calls, whereas the socket 2011 x6 is pulling 80k.

At first I thought AMD was simply trying to kill their x86 future, but the more I think about it the more it is likely that draw calls will continue to be pushed to the point where people will desire cpu upgrades in the future. It also gives x86 a more parallel path than what we were currently set on which was specially devoted to per core not more cores.

IMO Mantle discussion should be moved to the CPU forum, since at least so far after two big reveals from AMD and their partners the entire focus has been on draw calls and cpu related overhead, and barely anything "Film Quality Motion Bur" related to GPU performance advantages.

Somewhere that NVDA isn't discussed...mmm that makes sense.
I think it should stay right here...where all GPU/graphics fans can enjoy it.

Actually..we probably should have it as a sticky from now on.:thumbsup:
Hey wait...wasn't it a sticky until yesterday?
That's unusual given the APU13 conference started today....
 
Last edited:
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
Man, I must say that I was against Mantle in the beginning, but it looks like I'm starting to come around

I had no idea that the API bottleneck was this bad, and what it meant for games. I can imagine that games could become far more detailed and varied in terms of what is presented on the screen with the API bottleneck greatly reduced..

That is exactly the point. Currently, devs have stated on the PC side, there's the "DX tax", in that it takes PC hardware 2.5x more powerful to achieve the same result as consoles do with their APIs. In effect, all our hardware is forced to run crippled, weighted down, horribly inefficient when it can literally FLY. Thats why devs have called for Mantle to be developed.

So you can achieve two things with a better API: 1) vastly more detailed scenes running at the same performance or b) same detail scenes running on ancient hardware just as fast.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
This is now the second big reveal, and still no slide addresses increased GPU performance when not talking about draw call reduction.

Thing is though, draw calls and GPU performance are intertwined.. In strategy games this relationship is even closer, but it's also there in other genres as well.

BL2 is the perfect example of a game that is CPU limited due to DirectX overhead, directly impacting GPU performance.. It doesn't matter if you have Titan SLI and a 4960x, maintaining 60 FPS at all times in this game with PhysX on high is practically impossible because of the CPU bottleneck, which I'm certain is because of DX9.

Batman Arkham Origins which uses DX11 runs much better despite using the same engine, and I'm sure that's because of DX11's lower API overhead allowing faster CPU to GPU communication.
 
Last edited:

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
It indirectly affects the gpu because the two are intertwined and always have been.

However it's pretty obvious the major benefit from Mantle is in draw call overhead reduction which is explicitly CPU related and indirectly GPU related.

I actually made a thread on the CPU forum when we first heard about it (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2344580&highlight=), which is where I think this thread belongs since the major benefit is cpu related, the indirect benefit is overall experience.

People need to think about who is releasing this is where their biggest problem is, it's AMD and their biggest problem is their x86 uarch. Which is where AMD stands to benefit the most.
 
Last edited:

Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
0
0
I'm pretty sure that's not what they are thinking about...
If you check the presentation slides by the way its fairly obvious that draw calls are but one component of the mantle efficiencies.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
That is exactly the point. Currently, devs have stated on the PC side, there's the "DX tax", in that it takes PC hardware 2.5x more powerful to achieve the same result as consoles do with their APIs. In effect, all our hardware is forced to run crippled, weighted down, horribly inefficient when it can literally FLY. Thats why devs have called for Mantle to be developed.

So you can achieve two things with a better API: 1) vastly more detailed scenes running at the same performance or b) same detail scenes running on ancient hardware just as fast.

Sign me on! :thumbsup:

But unless NVidia embraces Mantle, the potential benefits derived from it will never fully materialize.

Unless developers are going to make "Mantle Mode" different than DirectX in not only performance, but visual fidelity, like PhysX?

PhysX adoption has been limited due to it only running on NVidia hardware.. Mantle could suffer the same fate..
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
Sign me on! :thumbsup:

But unless NVidia embraces Mantle, the potential benefits derived from it will never fully materialize.

Unless developers are going to make "Mantle Mode" different than DirectX in not only performance, but visual fidelity, like PhysX?

PhysX adoption has been limited due to it only running on NVidia hardware.. Mantle could suffer the same fate..

The only way this moves forward is with all graphics companies benefiting the same, it's unlikely that will be driven by Mantle and much more likely that a major API like DX will do similar with limited hardware compatibility.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
Sign me on! :thumbsup:

But unless NVidia embraces Mantle, the potential benefits derived from it will never fully materialize.

Unless developers are going to make "Mantle Mode" different than DirectX in not only performance, but visual fidelity, like PhysX?

PhysX adoption has been limited due to it only running on NVidia hardware.. Mantle could suffer the same fate..

We've been over this many times already on this thread.

The difference is AMD's GPU architecture is in both major consoles. That guarantees its longevity for this entire upcoming console generation.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
We've been over this many times already on this thread.

The difference is AMD's GPU architecture is in both major consoles. That guarantees its longevity for this entire upcoming console generation.

Consoles don't matter because we're talking about PCs.

PhysX was in both consoles and is in both consoles.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
Consoles don't matter because we're talking about PCs.

PhysX was in both consoles and is in both consoles.

Feel free to bash the dead horse again.. go over this thread and you can replay all the same [redacted] arguments over and over.. really, you got THAT much free time?

Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
-- stahlhart
 
Last edited by a moderator:

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
Their game demo, screen filled with units. "Up to 3 times faster with Mantle". Sounds like a big deal. For RTS games its a massive lifting of the bottleneck.

We shall have to wait and see what it does for more grunty FPS games.

If you look at the slides, and have a keen eye, seeing that the GPU is now involved in setting up a frame, taking the load off the CPU tremendously and reducing the time it takes to render such a frame by 3 times.. is a big deal for graphics.

Edit: But feel free to continue harping your negativity. Just like all your NV buddies who as recent as a few days ago were still claiming nobody outside DICE is gonna use it.. look how wrong they all are.

It's still only in DICE games. DICE just happens to make most EA games now, which is hilarious.
 

Noctifer616

Senior member
Nov 5, 2013
380
0
76
It's still only in DICE games. DICE just happens to make most EA games now, which is hilarious.

DICE has only 3 of out of the 15 FB 3 titles. The new Dragon Age, Need for Speed, Plants vs Zombies, Mass Effect, C&C till it was canceled, all those are not DICE games.

It's in all EA games running FB3, not just DICE games.
 
Last edited:

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
40
86
DICE has only 3 of out of the 15 FB 3 titles. The new Dragon Age, Need for Speed, Plants vs Zombies, Mass Effect, C&C till it was canceled.

It's in all EA games running FB3, not just DICE games.

Johan's keynote had him basically saying it outright, that when/if the games he listed get Mantle support, it will be implemented by the technical team at DICE.

That makes them DICE games to me.
 

desprado

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2013
1,645
0
0
So here some people were thinking they could get full benefit mantle by using Intel CPU+AMD GPU but thank god AMD prove me right.There is no way AMD will pay there money for Intel benefits.Mantle full advantage will be from APU+AMD GPU.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |