The AMD Mantle Thread

[SiliconWars]

It is also why both are doing better than amd.

Better at what? Not at writing next-gen API's for sure.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Better at what? Not at writing next-gen API's for sure.

Being profitable, not running into the red, pleasing shareholders, gaining market share on the PC.

Did you not read anything about mantle? Anand suspects that it may actually be the low level api in use on the Xbox. The devs showing their games on nvidia hardware at e3 were working on their games years prior to that trade show and the true specs of the next gen console were barely drying on the paper they were printed on. Mantle is obviously a very new development because it has surprised everyone. Given time more devs will pick this up.

Microsoft already said dx11 is what the Xbox one uses. What more do you need? There was exactly zero games, engines, or developers aside from dice that are mentioned. That is very telling. This whole thing is dice working with amd and amd trying to sell it to everyone else.

Yeah, how many PS1/2s, N64s and Segas had GCN either?

Doesn't matter cause the consoles have their own api in use with dev kits. No games that have been shown are using mantle yet except battlefield.

 

[SiliconWars]

Consoles don't use mantle at all. People keep talking like they do but they don't. Games that are in development are not using it. They have their own api currently in use that does the sane thing but can't be ported. Seriously Microsoft said that dx11 on the Xbox one is built to use every drop of the system and Sony has their own api that does the same thing.

Can't be ported? :hmm: You realise it's an AMD CPU and GPU that is the system, right? How much different do you think it can be to coding for any other AMD CPU and GCN card?

Anand clearly believes that the Xbox's low level API is basically Mantle, and AMD seems keen to tell people it's a good article worth reading. It's simple enough really - at a minimum all that will be required will be a port with few changes, at best it'll be complete compatibility and AMD will have to do nothing except sit back and laugh as the money rolls in.

 

[Genx87]

Can't be ported? :hmm: You realise it's an AMD CPU and GPU that is the system, right? How much different do you think it can be to coding for any other AMD CPU and GCN card?

Anand clearly believes that the Xbox's low level API is basically Mantle, and AMD seems keen to tell people it's a good article worth reading. It's simple enough really - at a minimum all that will be required will be a port with few changes, at best it'll be complete compatibility and AMD will have to do nothing except sit back and laugh as the money rolls in.

You remind me of myself about 10-15 years ago. In time you will realize AMD is a terribly run company that promises the world and delivers somalia.

I;ve been hearing about AMD sitting back and laughing as the money comes in for 20 years. Still waiting...

 

[SiliconWars]

You remind me of myself about 10-15 years ago. In time you will realize AMD is a terribly run company that promises the world and delivers somalia.

I;ve been hearing about AMD sitting back and laughing as the money comes in for 20 years. Still waiting...

Yes a "terribly run company" who had the foresight to win the console business while simultaneously developing the real game changing software that will probably spell the end of their main rival who "didn't like the margins". :thumbsup:

I think you don't really understand exactly what Mantle is, and why only a "terribly run company" like AMD could ever have planned and executed it to absolute perfection. Oh btw, there is still more to come from this story - a lot more. We only know what AMD has allowed us to know so far, this horror story just gets worse and worse for Nvidia as the months go by.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yes a "terribly run company" who had the foresight to win the console business while simultaneously developing the real game changing software that will probably spell the end of their main rival who "didn't like the margins". :thumbsup:

I think you don't really understand exactly what Mantle is, and why only a "terribly run company" like AMD could ever have planned and executed it to absolute perfection. Oh btw, there is still more to come from this story - a lot more. We only know what AMD has allowed us to know so far, this horror story just gets worse and worse for Nvidia as the months go by.

I understand what it is. A way for dice to easily port frostbite around. Where are all the other devs using it hm?

 

[Genx87]

Yes a "terribly run company" who had the foresight to win the console business while simultaneously developing the real game changing software that will probably spell the end of their main rival who "didn't like the margins". :thumbsup:

I think you don't really understand exactly what Mantle is, and why only a "terribly run company" like AMD could ever have planned and executed it to absolute perfection. Oh btw, there is still more to come from this story - a lot more. We only know what AMD has allowed us to know so far, this horror story just gets worse and worse for Nvidia as the months go by.

They basically won the console business last generation as wel(xBox360,Wii). The result was large losses.

Mantle at this point sounds like marketing jargon for an API they developed that nobody except DICE will be using. I doubt even the consoles will use it much as they should have API's that are truely bare metal.

I think it could be interesting in the PC space if it picks up. But given AMDs track record of overpromising and underdelivering. I dont have high hopes it will be anything more than a niche product or bullet point on a feature list.

Anyways my point was you are enthusiastic about AMD. That is great. But realize AMD has been like this for decades. Always so much hope that ends in disappointment.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Microsoft already said dx11 is what the Xbox one uses. What more do you need? There was exactly zero games, engines, or developers aside from dice that are mentioned. That is very telling. This whole thing is dice working with amd and amd trying to sell it to everyone else.

Consoles also use low level APIs that allow coding and optimizing to the metal.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Consoles also use low level APIs that allow coding and optimizing to the metal.

Right and that us what Microsoft said they made the xb1 version of dx11+ to do since they have a locked hardware feature set.

 

[SiliconWars]

I understand what it is. A way for dice to easily port frostbite around. Where are all the other devs using it hm?

Let's see what Anand says - http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

In fact the significance of developers in this entire process should not be understated. Mantle exists because it’s faster than high level APIs, it makes porting low level console code to the PC easier, and as it turns out, because it’s something developers have been telling AMD they want.

Mantle doesn’t just exist because AMD wants to leverage their console connection, but Mantle exists because developers want to leverage it too, and indeed developers have been coming to AMD for years asking for such a low level API for this very reason. As such the impression we're getting from AMD – or at least the impression they're trying their best to give off – is that Mantle was created to satisfy these requests, rather than being something AMD created and is trying to drum up interest for after the fact.

I dunno about you but when I go asking for something then I'm given it, I'm generally happy about that then go ahead and put it to good use.

I guess the same devs were also asking Nvidia so the question is, where is their API? Or maybe they didn't think the margins were good enough? Or maybe they were too busy with their 4K SLI drivers so they could smear AMD over how bad theirs were?

 

[GaiaHunter]

Right and that us what Microsoft said they made the xb1 version of dx11+ to do since they have a locked hardware feature set.

Which means that the DX11+ of consoles isn't the same as the DX11+ of Windows.

The hardware feature set you are talking about is AMD hardware.

What that means is that for the console DX11+ interact with AMD hardware, MS needs to know how to and that means AMD knows how MS is interacting at the low level with the hardware.

So AMD knows the MS (and Sony) tools.

That allows AMD to modify those tools to work in Windows and allow developers to reuse parts of the code they are using in the consoles for use in the Windows versions of the game.

Since that code will be faster than using a high level API like DX11, you get the performance boosts with Mantle.

I'm pretty sure AMD will be thrilled to help most big engines and bigger developers to write wrappers to allow their engines to interact with AMD mantle.

That won't be free for AMD or the developers but it will be much less costly than if they had to do it from scratch.

Additionally AMD will be delighted to assist those that go with mantle how to extract more for the consoles as well and maybe less interested in helping those that don't.

 

[96Firebird]

I dunno about you but when I go asking for something then I'm given it, I'm generally happy about that then go ahead and put it to good use.

We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?

https://twitter.com/wadetb

He sounds so excited use Mantle... /sarcasm

 

[ShintaiDK]

Right and that us what Microsoft said they made the xb1 version of dx11+ to do since they have a locked hardware feature set.

Yep, MS officially announced the Xbox One, a long with Windows 8.1 uses DirectX 11.2 API.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-11.2-Tiled-Resources-Xbox,23322.html

But I doubt that will hold the Mantle hype back.

 

[MeldarthX]

I understand what it is. A way for dice to easily port frostbite around. Where are all the other devs using it hm?

Seeing how it was just announced; I'd say most of the others we just don't know about it.

Anand's reported its the low level api for Xbox; Eurogamer says its exactly like the low level api for PS4 - ....gee unified low level api - that uses a lot of DX HLSA language....

We all know PS4 can and will use DX - as people are pointing out. Only way Mantle could ever work is - because AMD controls the consoles; and with their cards on PC......mantle would of never come about if AMD had only won 2 out of the 3 consoles......

I can understand naysayers; as we've seen something similar in glide; but the major difference between this and glide are a few. One 3dfx while a dom player in graphics market - it did not own the consoles completely. Two with glide; it didn't play nice with other apis while Mantle does....

as I said; there would be no Mantle without the console lock....that's what makes it possible

 

[SiliconWars]

https://twitter.com/wadetb

He sounds so excited use Mantle... /sarcasm

He doesn't need to be excited about it, he just needs to do it. Looks like he's been told he'll have to.

That's Activision btw, probably Nvidia's second strongest partner? Oh dear.

 

[ShintaiDK]

He doesn't need to be excited about it, he just needs to do it. Looks like he's been told he'll have to.

That's Activision btw, probably Nvidia's second strongest partner? Oh dear.

So when DICE is AMDs strongest partner...its a whole other matter and mantle is the best thing ever?

 

[SiliconWars]

So when DICE is AMDs strongest partner...its a whole other matter and mantle is the best thing ever?

You missed the point entirely. Let me explain.

One of Nvidia's closest partners have just come out and said they'll be forced into supporting Mantle. It doesn't matter how much they don't want to do it, all that matters is that they have to do it.

 

[SiliconWars]

So EA confirmed, all Frostbite games.

Activision "will have to support Mantle".

What did I say about dominos falling? That's the big 2 down already.

 

[Yarn]

Why are people so dense. Some here keep repeating that XB1 uses DX like anyone is contradicting that. Of course XB1 would use DX, its a standard and it makes cross platform development easier. There is also another lower level API for devs who want to take advantage of the fact that the console itself is a hardware standard that can be limited by the higher level APIs. The ps3 for example had PSGL (based on OpenGL ES) and libGCM.

Is it really a stretch to believe that AMD, the provider of all three console GPUs, had a hand in developing the lower level APIs? And that there was some unifying themes involved. I dunno man, that's the vybe I'm getting. I think mantle will be huge in the games that use it if not for what it is then because shintai predicted it wont.

 

[96Firebird]

You said this is what developers wanted, I show you a developer who clearly doesn't want it.

This is how I think Mantle will go down.

DICE will use it for the Frostbite engine, but as an afterthought. This is evident by the fact that they are releasing an update at least a month after the game is released. I don't believe any other developers have anything else in the works using Mantle, or else AMD would have gladly released this info at the presentation.

AMD's lack of exciting new hardware is overshadowed by Mantle's unveiling, but this creates a "wait and see" buzz. Their new hardware may or may not be faster than the aging Titan and GTX 780, but lets say the R9 290X is around the same in performance for a little bit less money. Being a little late to the game, they need an extra insentive to buy their new cards. They come up with Mantle, which provides an extra performance boost for their new cards. People who are on the fence could be pursued to buy the new cards because they may get a performance boost in future games. But who knows if this will actually take off? DICE could scrap it after a couple games because it is just too much extra work. DICE could love it and other developers hear praise and adopt Mantle.

The unknown works in their favor here, because their new cards haven't lived up to the hype produced by fans (just look at the thread here, aside from the usual known posters...).

Great strategy, I must say.

 

[NIGELG]

As I expected..Nvidia people are against Mantle,AMD people are Pro Mantle.

I am adopting a wait and see approach on this one....

But if Mantle can speed up my GCN card in games then I'm all for it....

 

[sontin]

Why are people so dense. Some here keep repeating that XB1 uses DX like anyone is contradicting that. Of course XB1 would use DX, its a standard and it makes cross platform development easier.

And that's the reason why we see so many consoles ports nowadays. Xbox uses DX and you can easily port it to the PC. No sane company will start a multi port game with an low level API in the mind. Optimizing only starts after the port to the target plattform.

 

[Creig]

Their new hardware may or may not be faster than the aging Titan and GTX 780,

Aging Titan and GTX 780? I know computer hardware depreciates quickly, but I had no idea that $1,000 flagship video cards are now considered "aging" seven months after their release.

but lets say the R9 290X is around the same in performance for a little bit less money.

Aren't Titan's still going for $1,000+? And the rumored MSRP of the R9-290X is $600. Assuming that the rumored price remains true, you can hardly say that $400 cheaper for similar performance just "a little bit less money".

Being a little late to the game, they need an extra insentive to buy their new cards.

Uh, I'm pretty sure getting Titan level performance for slightly over 1/2 the cost of a Titan would be incentive enough for most people to purchase one.

 

[sontin]

And the reason for Titan's price tag is a company which designed an Audio DSP instead of better hardware with a release date 6 months ago...

 

[Silverforce11]

Titan isn't the benchmark for high end perf/$, its the custom 780s that AMD need to beat in perf and price.

28nm is already late, nobody is going to folk out equal $$ for similar performance. Wait a year and we will get massive perf leap on 20nm. In the mean time, for people who still haven't upgraded to a 28nm GPU, just grab a nice 7950 and OC it to the max and enjoy THE BEST perf/$ this entire generation.