The AMD Mantle Thread

[Shivansps]

There is no fragmentation because everything still has D3D. This isn't 1996 where you had software rendering or proprietary rendering -- every Mantle game will also have directX. So there is absolutely zero fragmentation. Everybody, nvidia - intel and AMD all get 3d accelerated rendering. This is as opposed to 1996 where you MIGHT get 3d rendering, but if you chose the wrong card you had CPU rendering which looked horrible. Times are different. There is zero fragmentation, everything will still have DirectX, period.

Yes it is, as a dev you are forced to support Mantle as well DX (or OpenGL), there is a fragmentation right there, or just support DX or OpenGL and screw mantle.
Supporting 2 APIs is not a cost-free thing, we dont need AMD to come here and cut dev time to polish DX implementation.

Its exactly what you are saying, no AMD GNC GPU? sorry you get the crappy DX, if you are lucky.
There is no diference in that or in those old games that where either Glide or Software.

 

[blackened23]

I'm saying that everyone gets 3d acceleration therefore no one is excluded, and there is no fragmentation. Your comparison isn't a valid one. And your suggestion that there is no difference between everyone getting 3d acceleration as compared to 1996 where some folks had to use software rendering - you have GOT to be kidding me. Is that a joke? Were you around as a PC user back then? (PROBABLY NOT) Anyway, everyone gets 3D rendering.

Developers will not make mantle only games. This I guarantee - they want to sell their game to 100% of potential consumers, thus any mantle game will also have DirectX. If you think otherwise, you are just in the wrong. A few games will have Mantle, and that will be an added bonus for R9X users. But nvidia users still get their DirectX versions. No one is excluded from 3d acceleration. Everyone gets an excellent version of the game. This is as opposed to the 3D era of 1996 where some folks got 3d acceleration and others didn't. That will not happen. Everyone will get a good version of a game, and AMD users will get a few games that have an added bonus. Yet nvidia will have their DirectX. So, whatever.

 

[Shivansps]

I'm saying that everyone gets 3d acceleration therefore no one is excluded, and there is no fragmentation. Your comparison isn't a valid one.

Developers will not make mantle only games. This I guarantee - they want to sell their game to 100% of potential consumers, thus any mantle game will also have DirectX. If you think otherwise, you are just in the wrong. A few games will have Mantle, and that will be an added bonus for R9X users. But nvidia users still get their DirectX versions. No one is excluded from 3d acceleration. Everyone gets an excellent version of the game. This is as opposed to the 3D era of 1996 where some folks got 3d acceleration and others didn't. That will not happen. Everyone will get a good version of a game, and AMD users will get a few games that have an added bonus. Yet nvidia will have their DirectX. So, whatever.

I not saying there will be no DX, im saying we gona have worse DX implementations, and you right about "This I guarantee - they want to sell their game to 100% of potential consumers" that means keep using DX/OpenGL crew AMD and his Mantle.

thats why we are still using DX9 today, when DX10/11 and OpenGL are better.

BTW, Novalogic Games where either Glide or Software, they added DX in the 1999 F-22 Lightning 3 (if i remember right).

 

[blackened23]

I not saying there will be no DX, im saying we gona have worse DX implementations, and you right about "This I guarantee - they want to sell their game to 100% of potential consumers" that means keep using DX/OpenGL crew AMD and his Mantle.

thats why we are still using DX9 today, when DX10/11 and OpenGL are better.

So suddenly you have a problem with DirectX on your nvidia card? For you nothing changes. You still get your directx. Nobody will make mantle only games.

But, apparently, now you have a problem with directx being "crappy". Whatever, if you say so. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Nothing changes for you. AMD will get a couple of games that benefits them, kinda like (and this isn't an apples to apples comparison) how nvidia users benefit from physx. AMD gets a few games a year that benefits them. So what?

Again, sounds like nothing more than sour grapes. Nothing changes for you. You continue using DirectX. Although, hilariously, you seem to have problems with DX being "crappy" now. There is also no fragmentation. Maybe you should read up on what the 3d rendering situation was like back in 1996 where some people could use 3d acceleration and some could not. That is not the case now. Again, you still have your 3d accelerated DirectX. Nothing has and nothing will change for you - nvidia still excels in doing their things with DX11 games.

 

[Shivansps]

Acording to AMD DX its crappy, thats why they are making Mantle.

BTW, i have a HD5850. And i dont care either way, i just saying it seems a bad thing to me. DX/OpenGL made possible the golden age on pc gaming, we dont need games wasting dev time on a API than can only run on 1 brand.

 

[blackened23]

Oh, I must have missed the press release where AMD stated that "DirectX is crappy".

 

[mindbomb]

i think we're missing a big thing here-
ppl won't have to get windows 8 for dx 11.1 for bf4 now, cause of mantle.

Many windows 7 users are breathing a sigh of relief.

 

[Cookie Monster]

A proprietary API.. not sure how well this will pan out if any of the past proprietary APIs such as glide is of any indication for the long term.

 

[Carfax83]

But, apparently, now you have a problem with directx being "crappy". Whatever, if you say so. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Nothing changes for you. AMD will get a couple of games that benefits them, kinda like (and this isn't an apples to apples comparison) how nvidia users benefit from physx. AMD gets a few games a year that benefits them. So what?

And what happens if NVidia, or Intel does the same thing and makes a proprietary low level API of their own?

There's nothing stopping them from doing it. The question is, is this what we want for the future of PC gaming?

I don't think DirectX 11 is limiting developers, and I don't think Microsoft has any intention other than to keep refining and improving DirectX and make it as a low level as possible, if DirectX 11.1 and 11.2 are any indication.

If we were still on DX9 with no hope of change for the future, then I'd understand a move like this. It seems as though AMD is just trying to exploit their consolidation of the console market to dominate the PC market.

There are consequences for that though....for PC gamers at least.

 

[Zstream]

And what happens if NVidia, or Intel does the same thing and makes a proprietary low level API of their own?

There's nothing stopping them from doing it. The question is, is this what we want for the future of PC gaming?

I don't think DirectX 11 is limiting developers, and I don't think Microsoft has any intention other than to keep refining and improving DirectX and make it as a low level as possible, if DirectX 11.1 and 11.2 are any indication.

If we were still on DX9 with no hope of change for the future, then I'd understand a move like this. It seems as though AMD is just trying to exploit their consolidation of the console market to dominate the PC market.

There are consequences for that though....for PC gamers at least.

Intel already does by using/creating cpu specific extensions.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I remember reading that this is an open source initiative. As such, I have no doubts NVs competent driver department won't eventually adopt mantle (and if it's going to be in frostbyte games NV better) but they will eventually surpass AMD in performance. I have no terribly strong allegiance to either manufacturer and I only see this as a good thing.

Just because DX brought us the golden age of gaming, doesn't mean we're obligated to carry its mantle. Something new is desperately needed, and this might usher in a new golden age of PC gaming. One can hope.

 

[Cookie Monster]

And what happens if NVidia, or Intel does the same thing and makes a proprietary low level API of their own?

There's nothing stopping them from doing it. The question is, is this what we want for the future of PC gaming?

I don't think DirectX 11 is limiting developers, and I don't think Microsoft has any intention other than to keep refining and improving DirectX and make it as a low level as possible, if DirectX 11.1 and 11.2 are any indication.

If we were still on DX9 with no hope of change for the future, then I'd understand a move like this. It seems as though AMD is just trying to exploit their consolidation of the console market to dominate the PC market.

There are consequences for that though....for PC gamers at least.

But you also forget that a "low level" API from my understanding means the exposure of that particular graphics architecture (for someone to have a "peek" of that particular design) i.e. developers can gain direct access to the hardware and even within the same family of GPUs, the code will be different as they have different configurations of different logic parts.

For consoles it makes full sense because the hardware is fixed. Its the same vendor, the same architecture and nothing will ever be changed. But for the PC, there is a reason why having a non-GPU vendor specific API won out in the end and actually benefited the players on this market.

With this new API, sure the performance increases sounds great on paper but with it, it brings more fragmentation to a decreasing PC market. Its too early to say if this will have a positive/negative effect on the PC industry.. as long as it doesn't result in consumers looking at the game box to see whether their video card is "mantle capable" or not.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Intel already does by using/creating cpu specific extensions.

Thats because they own x86 + 95% of that particular market... They don't have a third party "microsoft" to level the playing fields for the market players.

 

[Zstream]

Thats because they own x86 + 95% of that particular market... They don't have a third party "microsoft" to level the playing fields for the market players.

AMD owns mantle and a huge majority of the console market....

 

[Cookie Monster]

AMD owns mantle and a huge majority of the console market....

And Intel/nVIDIA combined holds the majority of the PC GPU market. I have no issues with consoles, but its the idea that this API will try to compete against DX and OGL as a replacement is the issue I see because more than half the user base could may well be alienated.

I read somewhere that mantle is an open source standard (need citation), but im thinking its openness is more akin to CUDA being "open"..

 

[Zanovar]

Api wars:S.

 

[tviceman]

As for number 1 and 2. Its a good thing amd PC hardware is in all next gen consoles and mantle works there as well. Should be good for an additional 150 million plus gcn GPUs to sway those pesky developers over the next 5-10 years.

It's a slow burn to get to that 150 million, and by then how much will AMD's architecture have changed to make using Mantle as easy as 1-2-3 across any platform? Two architectures ago Nvidia had the GT200 - Fermi and Kepler are significantly different beasts to the point where optimizing for Kepler/Fermi will not yield the same gains on GT200 / G92 chips. As the GCN architecture evolves and changes, the API either has to become higher level or the developers will have to work overtime to optimize for consoles and then for GCN 3.0. The benefit that can be extracted from Mantle to PC graphics cards 2 generations from now will not be nearly as great as it could be right now - and right now / next year is when adoption will be at it's lowest.

Completely 2 different animals and that is your opinion. We will see what mantle brings.

Agreed it is my opinion. I hope it works out well, I just don't see developers moving from their xb1 and ps4 kits and using Mantle to leverage only 1/3 of all enabled PC's.

 

[Shivansps]

And Intel/nVIDIA combined holds the majority of the PC GPU market. I have no issues with consoles, but its the idea that this API will try to compete against DX and OGL as a replacement is the issue I see because more than half the user base could may well be alienated.

I read somewhere that mantle is an open source standard (need citation), but im thinking its openness is more akin to CUDA being "open"..

It does no matter if its open or not, if it can run on other hardware them there is no much of "low-level" on it. Unless its incompatible to AMD code.

 

[Yuriman]

Does Mantle make porting console games to PC any easier? Sounds like most console ports will probably have a Mantle option as it's relatively little work compared to rewriting everything for DX.

Though, as tviceman said, this API will probably be irrelevant in 2-3 years so I'm having a hard time seeing the point.

 

[tential]

When tech nerds on this site complain "OMG there is never any innovation."
I'm going to reference these types of thread where any type of innovation has hundreds of people on here crying saying "They GON TAKE OUR JOBS!!!!!" ("They GON FORCE ME TO GET THEIR GPU/CPU/WHatever").

Throwing wild assumptions out there is just getting plain ridiculous at this point.

So far, AMD is going to force the whole market to use AMD cards, Steam is going to stop supporting Windows OS, anyone else having any just utterly crazy things they wanna throw out there?

 

[Xarick]

Isn't OpenGL the ps4s main API?

 

[Enigmoid]

According to wikipedia ( best source right?) the ps3 and Xbox 360 sold over 150 million units. I fully expect more than that to sell this time around because gaming gets more mainstream every year. So there aren't that many yet, but there will be in short order. Nvidia should be very worried about this news. They will do fine in the hpc sector but they unwittingly dug themselves into a hole by not going after consoles.

Imagine if china allows these consoles into their country? They won't be able to make enough of the things.

There is a difference between the number of gcn cards at the console launch and over the console lifetime. Not to mention the number of RRODs and such. I fully expect to see consoles take less (comparatively speaking) than in 05/06 because of the rise of mobile gaming.

It's a slow burn to get to that 150 million, and by then how much will AMD's architecture have changed to make using Mantle as easy as 1-2-3 across any platform? Two architectures ago Nvidia had the GT200 - Fermi and Kepler are significantly different beasts to the point where optimizing for Kepler/Fermi will not yield the same gains on GT200 / G92 chips. As the GCN architecture evolves and changes, the API either has to become higher level or the developers will have to work overtime to optimize for consoles and then for GCN 3.0. The benefit that can be extracted from Mantle to PC graphics cards 2 generations from now will not be nearly as great as it could be right now - and right now / next year is when adoption will be at it's lowest.

Agreed it is my opinion. I hope it works out well, I just don't see developers moving from their xb1 and ps4 kits and using Mantle to leverage only 1/3 of all enabled PC's.

This might also, in the long run, turn out to be penny wise pound foolish. AMD is putting pressure on themselves to retain the same or similar architecture for the next 5-8 years with mantle. We all know how much GPUs have changed since 2006.

 

[Gloomy]

Do we know yet if it has Linux support? ' 3'

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Do we know yet if it has Linux support? ' 3'

I believe it does.

 

[wlee15]

It's a slow burn to get to that 150 million, and by then how much will AMD's architecture have changed to make using Mantle as easy as 1-2-3 across any platform? Two architectures ago Nvidia had the GT200 - Fermi and Kepler are significantly different beasts to the point where optimizing for Kepler/Fermi will not yield the same gains on GT200 / G92 chips.

Is it really true though after all an nVidia warp is still 32 threads and a AMD wavefront is still 64 threads. Also the vibe I'm getting from the developers that are commenting about Mantle is that much of the benefit comes from having control over memory which is often a neglected aspect of these types of discussions.

I believe it does.

It's Windows only initially.