The AMD Mantle Thread

[smackababy]

Sontin claimed only 1 in the next 6-12 months. I showed there to be more. If you want to argue about whether or not a particular title will be popular or not, I suggest you start a thread in the PC Gaming forum.

Only 1 is even confirmed in the next 6-12 months that uses Mantle, and that is BF4 which doesn't launch with Mantle support. You haven't proven anything except "oh here is a list of ANNOUNCED games using Frostbite that doesn't have Mantle even enabled."

So, if you want to argue about what is coming out in the next 6-12 months, please provide some real source these are more than vaporware at the moment.

Need for Speed: Rivals is releasing next month. It won't have Mantle. Mirror's Edge 2 (or whatever it will be called) was ANNOUNCED at E3 this year. It isn't releasing any time soon.

C&C planned to be released this year, meaning it is close to being finished. Won't have Mantle.

Dragon Age: Fall 2014 (a year away at best).

 

[Creig]

Well, since nobody in the public yet has the exact details of the games in question, I guess we'll have to wait and see what manner of Mantle support each one will have when it is released. It simply seems likely that there will be more than one title released between now and this time next year that will have a Mantle path.

 

[cytg111]

Holy crap that is alot of opinion based on not so much data.

anyway heres carmack

http://gearnuke.com/john-carmack-comments-possibilities-steambox-mantle/

Dr.Mr.Rockstar himself right there.
It is still pretty blurry to me, but if he says ms and sony could get outright hostile, I believe it to be a factor.

 

[3DVagabond]

Holy crap that is alot of opinion based on not so much data.

anyway heres carmack

http://gearnuke.com/john-carmack-comments-possibilities-steambox-mantle/

Dr.Mr.Rockstar himself right there.
It is still pretty blurry to me, but if he says ms and sony could get outright hostile, I believe it to be a factor.

AMD said they are closely partnered with M$ and this isn't an end around on M$.

from an interview with AMD's Raja Koduri: (2nd half of page is in English)
What is Microsoft's reaction to the Mantle move ? Some would guess they like it, some would guess they hate you for it...

RK - I can't obviously comment on Microsoft, but the thing I can say is we have a great relationship with Microsoft. We are one of the best partners they have in terms of moving DirectX forward. We move DirectX forward, we work with Microsoft on every version of DirectX and we will continue to do that and obviously we wouldn't surprise them with anything like Mantle so you can read between the lines.

Both us and Microsoft are committed to PC gaming and we want to do the right thing for game developers and end-users too. Right now this felt like the right answer, like the right solution to provide for what the game developers are asking during this transition and we are responding to that.

It is not about competition between APIs, we have ten times more resources working on DirectX than Mantle. We have twenty times more resources working on other standard APIs like OpenGL and OpenCL than on Mantle. To keep things in perspective, our support for industry standards hasn't diminished a bit; in fact if anything we'll be focusing more on that stuff. Mantle is solving this specific problem that specific several game developers have and we thought it's the right thing to help them.

 

[Cloudfire777]

Not sure if they can do both at the same time: Develop a better API than DX which most people will use because of that,

and move DX forward.
How are they gonna do that?



Edit: I cant't read, sorry :/
Edit2: If they have great belief in Mantle, why use so much more manpower on DX?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Not sure if they can do both at the same time: Develop a better API than DX which most people will use because of that,

and move DX forward.
How are they gonna do that?



Edit: I cant't read, sorry :/

Give an unbiased reason why they can not.

AMD is broke is not an acceptable answer.

 

[3DVagabond]

Not sure if they can do both at the same time: Develop a better API than DX which most people will use because of that,

and move DX forward.
How are they gonna do that?



Edit: I cant't read, sorry :/
Edit2: If they have great belief in Mantle, why use so much more manpower on DX?

How much do they need to use? Are they not using enough? How much does Dx support require? How much does OpenCL and OpenGL require? How long is a piece of string? How would we know the answers to these questions?

 

[blackened23]

Give an unbiased reason why they can not.

AMD is broke is not an acceptable answer.

Are you asking him for an objective answer? Have fun with that!

 

[Cloudfire777]

How much do they need to use? Are they not using enough? How much does Dx support require? How much does OpenCL and OpenGL require? How long is a piece of string? How would we know the answers to these questions?

DX have been with us for how long?
Mantle?

One would assume that the newer one, which only works on the newest architecture, require most hours. Well, if AMD really believe its going somewhere that is.

Could it be perhaps, that AMD have really only partnered with DICE and therefor dont need as many....?

Are you asking him for an objective answer? Have fun with that!

Grow up kid. Im not biting on your pathetic attempt at flame baiting (which you have done many times the last week).

 

[blackened23]

It's not flame bait. No offense, but do you think we're all dense? Let's be real here for a moment: It's a pretty well known fact that you rear your head for GPU launches merely to troll with off topic stuff, and you're never objective in your opinions, trolling is the reason you were banned from OCN. And that is telling because most of the mods at OCN are nvidia fans (which is fine, because they're actually objective and do not troll) so you were pretty over the top there. Anyway, you have a pretty well established history of doing just that. 100% of your posts here are in the video card forum for GPU launches and every other page of your post history is non-objective and off topic trolling.

Don't expect people who have seen you do the same time and time again to just ignore that. It's a fact. You don't have objective opinions. Being a fan of a company is fine - trolling with off topic nonsense is not. The same happens in the CPU forum from various over the top fans of AMD, it's not cool there, and it isn't cool here. Just chill out with that stuff.

 

[3DVagabond]

DX have been with us for how long?
Mantle?

One would assume that the newer one, which only works on the newest architecture, require most hours. Well, if AMD really believe its going somewhere that is.

Could it be perhaps, that AMD have really only partnered with DICE and therefor dont need as many....?

One can assume, but it doesn't mean you are correct. As far as them only being partnered with Dice, they have said there are more devs involved but Dice is the only one who's ready to talk publicly at this point.

You really should read the interview with Raja Koduri on hardware.fr (scroll down for English)
From the interview:

During the presentation of Mantle you said it was developed with several AAA developers in the gaming industry. In addition to DICE, when can we expect the first announcements ? Around the developer summit (APU13) ?

RK - I think you may see more around developer summit. Mantle for us is a very developer driven effort, when they are ready they'll say it. Johan was ready he said it. It is not like we came up with Mantle then we kind of want to push it, it is not AMD's CUDA.

 

[Rvenger]

DX have been with us for how long?
Mantle?

One would assume that the newer one, which only works on the newest architecture, require most hours. Well, if AMD really believe its going somewhere that is.

Could it be perhaps, that AMD have really only partnered with DICE and therefor dont need as many....?

How about wait and find out instead of making [redacted] up.

 

[Cloudfire777]

It's not flame bait. No offense, but do you think we're all dense? Let's be real here for a moment: It's a pretty well known fact that you rear your head for GPU launches merely to troll with off topic stuff, and you're never objective in your opinions, trolling is the reason you were banned from OCN. And that is telling because most of the mods at OCN are nvidia fans (which is fine, because they're actually objective and do not troll) so you were pretty over the top there. Anyway, you have a pretty well established history of doing just that. 100% of your posts here are in the video card forum for GPU launches and every other page of your post history is non-objective and off topic trolling.

Don't expect people who have seen you do the same time and time again to just ignore that. It's a fact. You don't have objective opinions. Being a fan of a company is fine - trolling with off topic nonsense is not. The same happens in the CPU forum from various over the top fans of AMD, it's not cool there, and it isn't cool here. Just chill out with that stuff.

Tell me where I have trolled in this thread?

And yeah, I have reported your post. Since you do nothing but post off topic yourself.

Well done :thumbsup:

I really give a rats behind about you and your opinion, so please stay away if you cant discuss what the thread is all about.

One can assume, but it doesn't mean you are correct. As far as them only being partnered with Dice, they have said there are more devs involved but Dice is the only one who's ready to talk publicly at this point.

You really should read the interview with Raja Koduri on hardware.fr (scroll down for English)
From the interview:

I didnt say I was correct. I asked questions and made my own assumptions.

As of now, they are probably using more manpower on DX games due to support for older non GCN GPUs and the lack of Mantle support, as well as committing to the future of DX. But what happens if Mantle becomes the priority if it get a foothold in the gaming community. What will happen then?
Does AMD have enough money to do both? What will happen to the relationship with Microsoft if AMD is forced to abandoned DX for the sake of Mantle future?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Give an unbiased reason why they can not.

AMD is broke is not an acceptable answer.

Does AMD have enough money to do both? What will happen to the relationship with Microsoft if AMD is forced to abandoned DX for the sake of Mantle future?

I knew it was coming. So predictable.

 

[Cloudfire777]

I knew it was coming. So predictable.

What did you expect, AMD is not really in the best financial situation and have been in the dirt for quite some time now.

I didnt say they were broke either, but I guess that they have to prioritize the funds they have available.

Did you expect me to sugar coat it? Time to deal with reality.

 

[chimaxi83]

When all else fails, resort to financials, as if it makes a lick of difference to anyone here.

 

[3DVagabond]

I didnt say I was correct. I asked questions and made my own assumptions.

What? You said, "One would assume that the newer one, which only works on the newest architecture, require most hours." I said you can assume that, but it doesn't make your assumption correct. Apparently, that assumption is wrong because AMD, who doesn't have to assume, allocates it's resources where it needs them and allocates heaps more elsewhere.

As of now, they are probably using more manpower on DX games due to support for older non GCN GPUs and the lack of Mantle support, as well as committing to the future of DX. But what happens if Mantle becomes the priority if it get a foothold in the gaming community. What will happen then?
Does AMD have enough money to do both? What will happen to the relationship with Microsoft if AMD is forced to abandoned DX for the sake of Mantle future?

You're implying, by questioning it, that AMD doesn't have the resources to support both. You have absolutely no idea though. If Mantle gets a foothold and requires more resources it will likely mean that AMD will have more money, wouldn't you think?

You are trying real hard to put a negative spin on Mantle from AMD's perspective. If you take the time to read about it you'll see that AMD doesn't really have a lot of resources tied up in Mantle. They have written an API based on the work they've done on the new consoles (likely mostly XBox1) to allow the devs to access the console optimizations for the PC. Something the devs have wanted for a long time. I'm not sure how much more support, beyond the same kind of support they already get for the consoles, they require. Doesn't seem like it should be a lot. If the devs can already make games for the consoles, then adapting it to the PC should mostly just require the tools. AMD says they've been working on this for a couple of years. I don't see why you are of the opinion it's going to be so resource intensive that they are going to have difficulty supporting Dx. It's business as usual for Dx, OpenGL, and OpenCL.

By the numbers given by Raja Mantle requires 1/10th the resources of any of the other API's. How much support does any other feature require? Eyefinity? Crossfire? Does Mantle require more or less? We don't know. There is no way to make an informed assumption, never mind an informed discussion on whether AMD's resources can support Mantle, now or in the future, compared to Dx or any other feature.

Trust me, the least of AMD's concerns are that it might get really popular and they'll have to throw more resources at it. As far as M$ goes, we can only go by what Raja said, and it makes sense. AMD didn't do any of this behind M$'s back. M$ isn't blindsided by this and likely to get all up in arms, as has been suggested. I'm sure they are rightfully concerned with keeping their relationship with M$ up. Because, without M$'s support and cooperation with Dx AMD would be screwed.

 

[3DVagabond]

What did you expect, AMD is not really in the best financial situation and have been in the dirt for quite some time now.

I didnt say they were broke either, but I guess that they have to prioritize the funds they have available.

Did you expect me to sugar coat it? Time to deal with reality.

You seem to be the one doing a lot of fantasizing. You need some kind of numbers to base your assumptions on. You have none. You're just throwing negative possibilities around and hoping they come true.

 

[stahlhart]

Are we going to stop the personal attacks and callouts and resume discussing Mantle, or am I going to have to start handing out time-outs? Choose wisely.
-- stahlhart

 

[Imouto]

Now kiss!

And thread crapping.
-- stahlhart

 

[Yarn]

But in the future, they will only have to code for Mantle (Playstation 4, XBox One & GCN PC) and DX11 (PC). Mantle actually makes it easier for devs since it reduces the number of APIs necessary to bring a game to all major platforms/GPUs.

I really doubt that mantle is the API used verbatim in all of those platforms, mantle will probably be as similar to or offer the same features as the low level APIs on the consoles. Even if AMD had a significant part to play in designing the APIs used in the consoles, I find it hard to believe that licensing restrictions would be so lax as to allow AMD to use the exact same API in its own products.

In a world with programmable shaders you dont write an engine against an API. Your engine has support for an API but the developer is responsible for the rest.

So you're saying that the engines support these APIs but don't actually use them?

Still believing that any sane company is developing a multi port game with a low level API in mind. A few facts for you guys:
All Multi-port games in the next 6 to 12 months will have no Mantle API except BF4: No Call of Duty, no Watch Dogs, no AC, no Batman, no Fifa, no PES...

Would you be kind enough to offer the definitive list of upcoming games that will and wont use mantle so that I may refer to in the future.

GCN market penetration is playing no role because in a open standard world people will not limiting themself to <20% of the market for investing the same amount of money to design a DX path to archive 100%.

But we all need our dream world, i guess.

First of all, what open standard world are you talking about.

Second, as it has been said, optimizing on consoles is not an overnight thing. There's evidence that even the hardware spec for XB1 hasn't been finalized until recently and likewise the SDK has been evolving as well. Once those have been finalized and development on the systems have matured you can bet people will be squeezing all they can from it.

Lastly where is your source for this "<20% of the market" figure, and I'm not talking about the market of everybody with a graphics processor or everybody who happens to have a steam account, I'm talking about the market who would spend money and buy the kind of games that would have these big name engines in them. Also how does using mantle "limit" you? Furthermore, how do you know how much additional costs will be incurred to support mantle over and above the multiple APIs the big engines already support? Additionally, do you know how programming costs factor into the bigger cost of making a game and getting it to gamers?

What? Mantle is a graphics API. This means you need to write your game for it. Mantle is not a middleware like PhysX which provides tools to create certain effects and compiles it to a target plattform automatically.

The graphics engines are the analogues to Physx. And how much CUDA programming is involved in using physx.

 

[carage]

How about:

• Battlefield 4
• Command and Conquer
• Mirrors Edge
• Plants Vs Zombies: Garden Warfare
• Need For Speed: Rivals
• Dragon Age: Inquisition
• Star Wars: Battlefront
• Mass Effect (New Title in the Franchise)

All will using the Frostbite 3 engine which now includes Mantle.

Which happens to be ALL EA GAMES...
Only time will what kind of impact will Mantle make.
But Glide still gives me goosebumps.
Back in the day, EA went so far as to repackage and release a special edition just for Glide.
Look up Need for Speed II SE...

 

[Abwx]

AMD Mantle: interview de Raja Koduri

http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html

 

[sontin]

So you're saying that the engines support these APIs but don't actually use them?

Support means you can use one of the supported API to write your game. But you need to write all these shaders for your assets. Even with Tessellation you need to write shaders for two stages and only the triangle creation process is handled by fixed function units.

Would you be kind enough to offer the definitive list of upcoming games that will and wont use mantle so that I may refer to in the future.

There is only one game with Mantle support in the next 3 months - BF4. Nobody know what will come after it.

First of all, what open standard world are you talking about.

PC market.

Lastly where is your source for this "<20% of the market" figure, and I'm not talking about the market of everybody with a graphics processor or everybody who happens to have a steam account, I'm talking about the market who would spend money and buy the kind of games that would have these big name engines in them. Also how does using mantle "limit" you? Furthermore, how do you know how much additional costs will be incurred to support mantle over and above the multiple APIs the big engines already support? Additionally, do you know how programming costs factor into the bigger cost of making a game and getting it to gamers?

AMD has only 21,9% of the whole graphics market - and this number includes the APUs...
The GCN market share is around 10%.

The graphics engines are the analogues to Physx. And how much CUDA programming is involved in using physx.

PhysX is high level. You dont write for a certain architecture. You compile your code to different processors (x86, Cell, ARM, Cuda...).
A graphics API is different because you write against it with different languages (Cg, HLSL, GLSL...) and the driver is converting it to the underlaying architecture. Mantle needs the developer for this part to optimize for the architecture.

 

[Keysplayr]

AMD has only 21,9% of the whole graphics market - and this number includes the APUs...
The GCN market share is around 10%.

When you say "whole graphics market" does that mean the entirety of GPU sales whether discrete, mobile, SoC or other? Because that seems like very low numbers, even for AMD. Please quote a source for your information on this please?