The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

Cool. The game runs better on an OS used by a small minority of gamers. Mantle will bring improvements for another, albeit larger minority. Dice seems to be more interested in promoting software and hardware than selling games.

Yes. Bf3 and bf4 moves hardware like nothing else in this world. And nv will lose the hardware game. But the profit from that single game and engine is miles ahead of what nv and amd can do right now. Bf is selling like crazy. Content is the future king and the hardware players will have to bow to it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

After reading about mantle abit more and coming across this tweet from carmack..

http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/04025C102JAT2A/478-3661-1-ND/1116359

@relativegames 9x draw calls is credible over stock D3D, but Nvidia OpenGL extensions can give similar I mprocements.

I think "Mantle" is somewhat like NVAPI that it's primary goal isn't about performance (thinking performance is fact up to the devs and how much AMD is willing to invest on such game) but rather smoothing out the portability of the console games to the desktop and vice versa which further makes more sense seeing as AMD GPUs are used for both consoles.

 

[tential]

Cool. The game runs better on an OS used by a small minority of gamers. Mantle will bring improvements for another, albeit larger minority. Dice seems to be more interested in promoting software and hardware than selling games.

Or they're interested in the future. Computers are sold with the newest Operating System (Windows 8). Majority of gamers do NOT build their own rig. Building around an OS that will be here the longest makes sense. I'm on Windows 8 because I wasn't going to go backwards to just get W7 to "be a gamer!!!!".

 

[ShintaiDK]

After reading about mantle abit more and coming across this tweet from carmack..

http://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/04025C102JAT2A/478-3661-1-ND/1116359



I think "Mantle" is somewhat like NVAPI that it's primary goal isn't about performance (thinking performance is fact up to the devs and how much AMD is willing to invest on such game) but rather smoothing out the portability of the console games to the desktop and vice versa which further makes more sense seeing as AMD GPUs are used for both consoles.

So what he says is, we could get it for everyone and all cards on an open standard. Yet a closed API with a minority set of users was choosen. Interesting.

 

[MeldarthX]

So what he says is, we could get it for everyone and all cards on an open standard. Yet a closed API with a minority set of users was choosen. Interesting.

It will be open; or its not closed like Physx


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphi...t_Will_Become_Widely_Available_to_Others.html

because they are creating things for console and themselves a low level language - they won't do the work for Nvidia or Intel. If they want to put their paths into mantle; they will be able to. That's the difference...

AMD didn't lock TressFX - I don't see them locking mantle. So for now I concede it is proprietary to AMD; but only the time being. I do believe we will see sdk next year; but if we don't and AMD locks this like physx and doesn't nothing with it then yea I'll tear them a new one like I do with Nvidia.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Nothing in your article states its opensource. He only says they are not ready to share specs and SDK. And it only works on GCN. Not to mention, where is the console link?

TressFX is not locked to GCN. It uses DirectCompute via DirectX.

So lets sum up:
Mantle is a closed API.
Mantle only works on GCN.
Mantle is not a console API.
Only DICE is involved with Mantle.
Mantle is not finished, so specs, no SDK.

 

[MeldarthX]

Nothing in your article states its opensource. He only says they are not ready to share specs and SDK. And it only works on GCN. Not to mention, where is the console link?

TressFX is not locked to GCN. It uses DirectCompute via DirectX.

So lets sum up:
Mantle is a closed API.
Mantle only works on GCN.
Mantle is not a console API.
Only DICE is involved with Mantle.
Mantle is not finished, so specs, no SDK.

The plan is, long term, once we have developed Mantle into a state where it’s stable and in a state where it can be shared openly [we will make it available]. The long term plan is to share and create the spec and SDK and make it widely available. Our thinking is: there’s nothing that says that someone else could develop their own version of Mantle and mirror what we’ve done in how to access the lower levels of their own silicon. I think what it does is it forges the way, the easiest way,” explained Mr. Corpus.

it does so seriously Shin.....so come on now He's the director of software - so you saying he's lieing?

Dice is not only one's involved with Mantle; again stop lieing. Rest of the partners we will know in November....

 

[ShintaiDK]

The plan is, long term, once we have developed Mantle into a state where it’s stable and in a state where it can be shared openly [we will make it available]. The long term plan is to share and create the spec and SDK and make it widely available. Our thinking is: there’s nothing that says that someone else could develop their own version of Mantle and mirror what we’ve done in how to access the lower levels of their own silicon. I think what it does is it forges the way, the easiest way,” explained Mr. Corpus.

it does so seriously Shin.....so come on now He's the director of software - so you saying he's lieing?

Dice is not only one's involved with Mantle; again stop lieing. Rest of the partners we will know in November....

He never said it would be open. He simply says they are not ready to share specs and SDK (before 1-2 years.).

And by software you mean "Software Alliances and Developer Relations".

So those partners wasnt good enough to be listed at AMDs event. Sure places some confidence.

 

[desprado]

He never said it would be open. He simply says they are not ready to share specs and SDK (before 1-2 years.).

first thing is AMD has payed dice to use Mantle and it is around 8 million.If mantle was that huge than they did not need to pay that so much

 

[ShintaiDK]

first thing is AMD has payed dice to use Mantle and it is around 8 million.If mantle was that huge than they did not need to pay that so much

Exactly. Specially when they say it was at the "request of developers". Yet its AMD paying the party.

I dont see Mantle as anything but an attempt to monopolize with a closed API. Looking at AMD s graphics and visual division and their lack of profit. I can understand why.

And if Mantle was a console API. They would have screamed it out at every slide.

 

[Leadbox]

first thing is AMD has payed dice to use Mantle and it is around 8 million.If mantle was that huge than they did not need to pay that so much

Exactly. Specially when they say it was at the "request of developers". Yet its AMD paying the party.

I dont see Mantle as anything but an attempt to monopolize with a closed API. Looking at AMD s graphics and visual division and their lack of profit. I can understand why.

Are these informed and very insightful conclusions based on what little info we have on mantle and its purpose?

 

[desprado]

Exactly. Specially when they say it was at the "request of developers". Yet its AMD paying the party.

I dont see Mantle as anything but an attempt to monopolize with a closed API. Looking at AMD s graphics and visual division and their lack of profit. I can understand why.

And if Mantle was a console API. They would have screamed it out at every slide.

Mantle is for Mid Range PCs not Ultra end.People who have 7970s(3) or Gtx 780s or Gtx 680s wont see that much difference and maybe about 5 to 7% not much more.
Second thing what DX 11 feature so i think they need to code that to.

 

[MeldarthX]

He never said it would be open. He simply says they are not ready to share specs and SDK (before 1-2 years.).

And by software you mean "Software Alliances and Developer Relations".

So those partners wasnt good enough to be listed at AMDs event. Sure places some confidence.

Will admit if you're wrong Shin? EA's got a time exclusive - November at this time; we will know all the partners.

I've already said; we know Activision will use it; I've also say UBsoft will use; they will have it in all the major engines including Unity.....

I've also said if I'm wrong; I'll admit it - seeing how with reports this is supposed to be the low level api both sony and ms are using on the consoles.

People I think are going to very surprised just how many will be using this and how much performance will be gained from it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle sure was a surprise for Activision. And they wrote they hoped someone would make a DX/openGL wrapper. Ubisoft? They signed a deal with NVidia. Unity? I cant find anything with them supporting Mantle either. Carmack and ID Software didnt seem to know anything about Mantle either.

Only thing we keep hearign with Mantle is DICE, DICE and DICE. And how DICE was leading the project.

 

[desprado]

AMD has deal with only 2 developers while Nvidia have more than 5

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well, I see the statements of openness from amd as disingenuous at best. It is not sure what level of access they will allow, but in the end, it doesn't matter. You still have to use their hardware. That effectively locks down the program no matter what.

 

[GaiaHunter]

So lets sum up:
Mantle is a closed API.
Mantle only works on GCN.
Mantle is not a console API.
Only DICE is involved with Mantle.
Mantle is not finished, so specs, no SDK.

The consoles API work on GCN.

It is like those babies games where the baby needs to insert the correct form on the correct form holder.

AMD has the form holder and the consoles API are the pieces.

So AMD knows that the only thing that will fit their X holder is the X, the only thing that will fit the O holder is the O, etc.

In fact AMD had to tell MS and Sony which forms to use to interact with the GCN architecture in the first place.

Probably you believe that the low level API is some very secure secret that AMD has no way to know and so no way to develop mantle to port that API to be used with the desktop GCN cards, but you are wrong.

 

[MightyMalus]

Mantle is still AMD's API, not DICE's. Something to keep in mind. DICE can make it, but they don't own it. And really, Game Developers should be the ones making this stuff.

This might have been shown before: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2049...hics-could-mean-big-things-for-pc-gaming.html

It will be an option on the console's, it would be pointless if not.

 

[Lonyo]

AMD has deal with only 2 developers while Nvidia have more than 5

It's not about how many developers you have a deal with.
If someone had a deal with Epic for Unreal Engine 3, that's 1 deal.
That's a lot more significant than having 20 deals with random small developers making 1 game each, since UE3 ended up being used everywhere.

Frostbite 3 is EA's next engine, as in, basically the entire company. It's their UE3. So while it may not be many developers, it will be many games.

(And Crytek/Cryengine isn't part of EA).

 

[MeldarthX]

It's not about how many developers you have a deal with.
If someone had a deal with Epic for Unreal Engine 3, that's 1 deal.
That's a lot more significant than having 20 deals with random small developers making 1 game each, since UE3 ended up being used everywhere.

Frostbite 3 is EA's next engine, as in, basically the entire company. It's their UE3. So while it may not be many developers, it will be many games.

(And Crytek/Cryengine isn't part of EA).

That's what I've been trying to say to them. Mantle will be in the engines - that covers more than 80% of all games out there.

You think for a second after seeing what it does in BF4 that if say Epic or Crytek don't have it already worked on being put into their engines that they won't?

Its pure foolishness. Its the api being used for the consoles; it will be used for PC. Publishers will use it; those that keep trying to say this is Dice only is really seriously fooling themselves.

As people have pointed out; AMD controls the consoles; this allows them to do this; otherwise Mantle would of never happened. Head of Software from AMD has also said Mantle will be open for others to add to it; but then again that isn't true either by what others are misunderstanding.

We haven't even touched on true audio either.....

 

[96Firebird]

We haven't even touched on true audio either.....

Because close to no one cares about it.

Keep fighting the good fight my man!

 

[Leadbox]

Because close to no one cares about it.

Keep fighting the good fight my man!

I bet it would be right up there with sliced bread if it was nvidia bringing it, then it would be

 

[Grooveriding]

I bet it would be right up there with sliced bread if it was nvidia bringing it, then it would be

SoundX, bringing new levels of audio immersion with a 30% performance penalty

 

[MeldarthX]

Because close to no one cares about it.

Keep fighting the good fight my man!

People don't remember what audio was and how it literally was game changing.....not after MS killed audio.

Finally we're getting it back; as soon as games that sound means between life and death say......Thief 4...then yea for now people will brush it off......but they won't for long.

 

[96Firebird]

I bet it would be right up there with sliced bread if it was nvidia bringing it, then it would be

Always thinking in company X vs company Y, sad mind you have.