The AMD Mantle Thread

[frozentundra123456]

No, I have an open mind. I've made my position on Mantle pretty clear:

When asked to make a prediction on performance, I said "30%, mostly in minimum FPS." I stand by that. When talking about its future prospects, I compared it to Physx: a total disappointment, relegated to sparkle effects and zero gameplay innovation. Mantle will be the same thing. It won't change games, just make them a little faster on AMD hardware. Just like Physx doesn't change games, and just makes them a little prettier on Nvidia hardware. I earnestly believe Mantle will fail in its goal to revolutionize the industry. I do think it will help AMD sell cards though.

This seems like a very likely scenario, especially unless nVidia or Intel or both come on board, which seems very unlikely to me. One can recite over and over again what studios are on board, but the fact remains that even if 100 mantle games come out in the next two or three years, compared to the thousands of games available for the PC that is a very small percentage. And that small percentage of the total available games can only be played on apus/dgpus that are a small portion of the total market. I actually see backwards compatibility as perhaps an even bigger problem with mantle than market fragmentation, which still is a problem in itself.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The fact that DirectX run on so wide a display of hardware and the buildt in backward-compatability is why PC gaming has come so far.

Mantle is deadborn if Intel and NVIDIA dosn't adopt it too...like it or not.

 

[Erenhardt]

Mantle is deadborn if Intel and NVIDIA dosn't adopt it too...like it or not.

Says who? What kind of game developer are you to say things like that?

 

[Lonbjerg]

Says who? What kind of game developer are you to say things like that?

Says history...you want the underdog in both the CPU and GPU market to topple the topgraphy of the market...and stepping on Microsoft's "toes" at the same time...you don't need a game developer to use logic :biggrin:

 

[Pandamonia]

I'm not "negativity"...I'm just a realist...and a sudden influx of new posters "prasing" PR and promoting il-informed notions just trips my BS-meter.
So I poke holes in the PR...like I poke holes in religious FUD at other forums.

But to a persons eating PR claims raw and with no filter, I might seem real annoying...but that is not my problem.

Do you have anything to say on the Mantle PR...or are you just focused on me? ^^

You have written it off with no proof what so ever.

You are one uninformed person who obviously knows better than AMD and the 5 developers using it including DICE which is one of the best dev's in the world.

If you were a horse you would be a 3 legged rocking horse in the gold cup... Unbackable!

 

[Erenhardt]

Says history...you want the underdog in both the CPU and GPU market to topple the topgraphy of the market...and stepping on Microsoft's "toes" at the same time...you don't need a game developer to use logic :biggrin:

I feel like we had that conversations a couple of pages ago.
There are already major 2014 releases confirmed to support mantle. Most AAA game's engines will support mantle. Your use of logic is questionable.
You touched a sad part of it all. Look what is happening?! The weakest one need to push the industry forward, while the fat fishes just care about $ and nothing else.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I feel like we had that conversations a couple of pages ago.
There are already major 2014 releases confirmed to support mantle. Most AAA game's engines will support mantle. Your use of logic is questionable.
You touched a sad part of it all. Look what is happening?! The weakest one need to push the industry forward, while the fat fishes just care about $ and nothing else.

The leader in the graphichs market has not jumped onboard (Intel).
Neither has number two (NVIDIA).
Sure...it's gonna be a home run!!! :biggrin:

And don't get me started on Microsoft..and the CPU side :twisted:

I can see why mantle makes "sense" for AMD on the CPU side though....Intel's IPC is slowy but surely make AMD more and more irrelevant.
But just bacuse it makes "sense" for AMD...dosn't mean it makes sense for the majority of the market.

 

[desprado]

The leader in the graphichs market has not jumped onboard (Intel).
Neither has number two (NVIDIA).
Sure...it's gonna be a home run!!! :biggrin:

And don't get me started on Microsoft..and the CPU side :twisted:

I can see why mantle makes "sense" for AMD on the CPU side though....Intel's IPC is slowy but surely make AMD more and more irrelevant.
But just bacuse it makes "sense" for AMD...dosn't mean it makes sense for the majority of the market.

Leader of Graphic is Nvidia and CPU is Intel.I think u miss right the first part.

 

[Noctifer616]

Leader of Graphic is Nvidia and CPU is Intel.I think u miss right the first part.

No, he is correct. When it comes to GPU market share, Intel leads.

True, it's integrated, but it still counts in a way.

 

[Erenhardt]

But just bacuse it makes "sense" for AMD...dosn't mean it makes sense for the majority of the market.

Of course it doesn't make sense for intel. They enjoy selling hexa core server CPU with insane premium to gamers. Suddenly mantle could make the i3 more than enough for gaming purpose and cut their margins.

Is the lack of innovation from competition a reason not to innovate? You are not talking like a consumer. Are you angry that the happy train is leaving without you? Maybe someday they will enable mantle on nv too.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Leader of Graphic is Nvidia and CPU is Intel.I think u miss right the first part.

Actually no...if you count "APU's", you need to count Intel with too.

Graphics market share is like this:
1. Intel
2. NVIDIA
3. AMD.

AMD is the underdog here, just like they are the underdog to Intel in the CPU market.


Lonbjerg, get out of the thread, NOW. And if you don't you will be facing a long vacation.

-Rvenger

 

[Leadbox]

Actually no...if you count "APU's", you need to count Intel with too.

Graphics market share is like this:
1. Intel
2. NVIDIA
3. AMD.

AMD is the underdog here, just like they are the underdog to Intel in the CPU market.

More off topic crap...
Sigh..

 

[Lonbjerg]

Of course it doesn't make sense for intel. They enjoy selling hexa core server CPU with insane premium to gamers. Suddenly mantle could make the i3 more than enough for gaming purpose and cut their margins.

Is the lack of innovation from competition a reason not to innovate? You are not talking like a consumer. Are you angry that the happy trains is leaving without you? Maybe someday they will enable mantle on nv too.

Are you saying Mantle will bring a i3 on the side of my i7 990X?
If not...then you argumentation is flawed and you need to rethink your post.
If yes...I cannot take you seriously in any way or form.

 

[Lonbjerg]

More off topic crap...
Sigh..

No, this goes to Mantle's chance of going the same way as eg. TruForm, 3Dnow ect...

 

[Erenhardt]

Are you saying Mantle will bring a i3 on the side of my i7 990X?
If not...then you argumentation is flawed and you need to rethink your post.
If yes...I cannot take you seriously in any way or form.

well, what can I say... I'm sorry for your purchase decision - this is as much as I could do to ease your pain.

 

[dguy6789]

More off topic crap...
Sigh..

Just don't feed the trolls. Ignore em and they go away. The guy has never done anything but bash AMD and make anti AMD arguments with exceptionally flawed logic since he signed up for these forums.

Infraction issued for callout.
-- stahlhart

 

[Rvenger]

If I see anymore off topic trolling nonsense I can assure you the offenders will be kicked from this thread. Please stay on topic, be civil and don't feed the trolls.


EDIT: Stop with the member callouts as well.

-Rvenger

 

[Slomo4shO]

The guy has never done anything but bash AMD and make anti AMD arguments with exceptionally flawed logic since he signed up for these forums.

Hes nearing 5 years of trolling... He is persistent :whiste:

/grr talk about an untimely post.

Infraction issued for callout.
-- stahlhart

 

[Carfax83]

When asked to make a prediction on performance, I said "30%, mostly in minimum FPS." I stand by that. When talking about its future prospects, I compared it to Physx: a total disappointment, relegated to sparkle effects and zero gameplay innovation. Mantle will be the same thing. It won't change games, just make them a little faster on AMD hardware. Just like Physx doesn't change games, and just makes them a little prettier on Nvidia hardware. I earnestly believe Mantle will fail in its goal to revolutionize the industry.

That's a good analysis, except that Mantle has an even more uphill battle since it has to contend with Direct3D, specifically it having not only a massive install base, but that Microsoft having the capability and the will to continue to improve it by reducing it's overhead.

Direct3D may never have as low an operating overhead as Mantle (due to necessarily more abstraction), but it will likely come close enough to negate Mantle's biggest benefits, making it unnecessary and even counterproductive..

PhysX has competition as well, but it remains dominant and viable due to it's technical advantages such as full GPU acceleration and unique effects not found elsewhere.

I do think it will help AMD sell cards though

And this is all AMD can hope for in the short term, unless Intel and NVidia adopt the technology as well, which seems very unlikely.

Honestly, I hope it does allow AMD to sell more cards, as it's better for consumers if AMD is a stronger competitor for both NVidia and Intel.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I tend to think mantle is going to really increase and apu sales. They are bundling kaveri with bf4 they must be confident it will run well.

We all know apus are eventually going to be enough to replace desktop GPUs for most gamers. This will likely accelerate the process.

 

[Freaksterz]

Their GPUs are all out of stock anyway , Even where I live.. The mining craze is here too (without their prices thank god..)
If they can boost their APU sales, I'm sure thats a victory aswell.

 

[Carfax83]

The fact that DirectX run on so wide a display of hardware and the buildt in backward-compatability is why PC gaming has come so far.

I've seen certain people in this thread scoff at backward compatibility as if it were nothing important, and easily sacrificed at the Mantle altar....but that's just crazy talk if you ask me......much like that lunatic AMD executive that claimed there will be no DirectX 12..

As you say, backward compatibility (and cross architectural compatibility) are the biggest reasons why PC gaming has come so far. If PC gaming never had these attributes, it would have fragmented into oblivion long ago.

I mean, just look at consoles. Consoles completely switch hardware and programming models nearly every generation, whilst PC's basic architecture and programming model has remained consistent, but with evolutionary (and sometimes revolutionary) changes.

This allows PC gamers to play games on a wide range of hardware, and to play games that have long since ceased publication. Right now, I am playing Baldurs Gate 2 enhanced edition, an improved version of a game that came out almost 15 years ago.

So while console games generally have higher initial sales due to a greater volume of units, PC games make up for it in the end by having a FAR longer sales cycle.

So these are MASSIVE advantages, and are not lightly cast aside in the name of progress.

 

[ASM-coder]

*This may have been discussed before, but this is a long thread so forgive me if it has, and I missed it. I watched the video from 'NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" tech day', where John Carmack, Tim Sweeney and Johan Andersson talk NVIDIA G-Sync, AMD Mantle and Graphics Trends. It was a long video, but near the end someone in the audience brought up Mantle. Carmack & Sweeney were mostly opposed, primarily from the standpoint of..."we don't need another API, and what if NVIDIA and Intel responded with their own APIs. What a mess." Johan Andersson, on the other hand was already knee deep by this time(October,) but it was still early days and he wouldn't/couldn't speak about benchmarks and such. He did sound optimistic however. Now keep in mind that this was part of the big announcement of G-Sync, so later someone asked what I would call a loaded question, something to the effect of "There's clearly a lot of enthusiasm in the panel for G-Sync, would that be saying that you would be playing the games that your developing on NVIDIA hardware at this point?" Johan Andersson was not willing to agree with that. He said mutliple times that he wanted Mantle as well, so his final answer was both. As an invited guest at an NVIDIA event, talking about their new product, I think this says something about the appeal of Mantle, and I have seen a subsequent video where he discusses Mantle in more detail, and my impression is that he has gotten more excited about Mantle, for more reasons than just a low level API.

 

[krumme]

That's a good analysis, except that Mantle has an even more uphill battle since it has to contend with Direct3D, specifically it having not only a massive install base, but that Microsoft having the capability and the will to continue to improve it by reducing it's overhead.

Direct3D may never have as low an operating overhead as Mantle (due to necessarily more abstraction), but it will likely come close enough to negate Mantle's biggest benefits, making it unnecessary and even counterproductive..

PhysX has competition as well, but it remains dominant and viable due to it's technical advantages such as full GPU acceleration and unique effects not found elsewhere.

And this is all AMD can hope for in the short term, unless Intel and NVidia adopt the technology as well, which seems very unlikely.

Honestly, I hope it does allow AMD to sell more cards, as it's better for consumers if AMD is a stronger competitor for both NVidia and Intel.

Amd is a little player compared to the gaming industry.
EA alone is nearly the same size and is financially better fit.

Amd surely hopes that mantle will give better profit. The wsa deal with mubadala will probably make sure of a flooding of cards from gf and thereby more marketshare but mantle is probably more for the margin side imho. To have a brand more like nv.

But we look at it from the wrong perspective. I think its amd dancing to the tune from EA not opposite. Be it mantle and even influencing when 290 cards is released. Content is closer to the consumer than ever. Hardware is getting cheaper. Content is king today.

 

[krumme]

*This may have been discussed before, but this is a long thread so forgive me if it has, and I missed it. I watched the video from 'NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" tech day', where John Carmack, Tim Sweeney and Johan Andersson talk NVIDIA G-Sync, AMD Mantle and Graphics Trends. It was a long video, but near the end someone in the audience brought up Mantle. Carmack & Sweeney were mostly opposed, primarily from the standpoint of..."we don't need another API, and what if NVIDIA and Intel responded with their own APIs. What a mess." Johan Andersson, on the other hand was already knee deep by this time(October,) but it was still early days and he wouldn't/couldn't speak about benchmarks and such. He did sound optimistic however. Now keep in mind that this was part of the big announcement of G-Sync, so later someone asked what I would call a loaded question, something to the effect of "There's clearly a lot of enthusiasm in the panel for G-Sync, would that be saying that you would be playing the games that your developing on NVIDIA hardware at this point?" Johan Andersson was not willing to agree with that. He said mutliple times that he wanted Mantle as well, so his final answer was both. As an invited guest at an NVIDIA event, talking about their new product, I think this says something about the appeal of Mantle, and I have seen a subsequent video where he discusses Mantle in more detail, and my impression is that he has gotten more excited about Mantle, for more reasons than just a low level API.

I noticed this reaction from Johan at the event as well. It have not been mentioned here before btw
But i think his enthusiasm is not different from the oxide guys. I think its about programmability and getting in control. There is nothing so motivating as getting in control of our work and it goes for all of us.

(Edit: our anxiety to not be in control can actually make most of us really afraid and insecure )