The AMD Mantle Thread

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SiliconWars

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Dec 29, 2012
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No one can say that without actually measuring that. Anyway, DX related overhead has improved significantly over the years, and will continue to improve. Next gen GPU's will also have unified virtual memory so that there will be more efficient utilization of CPU and GPU.

I think though that we really need to assume that the vast majority of those dips in gaming happen when DX becomes totally serialised and just bogs down the system. Again, this is something that just should never happen with Mantle. The only thing that should cause an obvious FPS drop is if the scene gets incredibly complicated and bogs down the GPU.

And while DX overhead is improving, it still is what it is now. We can discuss the removal of the remaining overheads if and when they happen - but as things stand there is already an API that does away with all of DX's problems, which is why we're discussing it.
 

ams23

Senior member
Feb 18, 2013
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CPU overhead reduction will happen with or without DX as GPU architecture evolves this year and beyond. That said, Microsoft will not sit still with DX.
 

SiliconWars

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If you're talking about the ARM core for offloaded draw calls on Nvidia gpu, that sounds like complete BS to me to be frank.

Let's say it's true though - it's gonna need it's own API to make use of it as there is clearly no way to do this in DX or OGL currently.
 

DamnedLife

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Dec 26, 2013
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@ SiliconWars: you still don't get it. Any dip in the 30-60 fps range will result in smoother gameplay vs. not having the tech. And if framerate drops below 30fps, the gameplay will never be smooth one way or another.

You must be smoking something hallucinogenic to suggest that Mantle will magically cause fps to dip no lower than 60fps. As long as fps drops below 60fps, Mantle cannot resolve issues related to tearing/stuttering/lag that are fundamental to the monitor tech.
I am purely guessing here but doesn't this depend on the engine and the efficiency of the api, I mean if CPU bottleneck in a fx 8350 @stock + r9 290x @stock rig causing those dips, then mantle will help minimise those dips at the least right? 60fps is high reach accepted, but consider this if it does increases average fps, it may be doing so by increasing the dip point a few or many fps along with the same for max fps.

To my understanding the newest and baddest graphics cards on the both red and green do not sweat when it comes to an ever rising maximum fps roof threshold, to a point that it just gets ridiculous (for low res like 1080p - yeah FullHD is now the lowest res. ) so much so that 120Hz monitors feel really really smooth.

But on the other hand some games are punishing these cards left and right when it comes to the lowest fps margins. The developers of those games try to optimise the games for all settings by dealing with a black box api design-DirectX. Over the years they actually manage to formulate some tricks for general and optimisations specific to brands.

On the user side of things, both red and green teams generate profiles which is basically hardware specific tricks and optimisations developers woudn't know about and/or missed. To me this scenario is at least as exhausting as it sounded/guessed as to be when developing for different APIs, but then again that's why I said sounded or guessed as; because none of us actually knows this even though some of us may be involved in the past or currently in development of games or programming. Because these people are not specificly involved in any phase of the current game development with mantle, and are just guessing while comparing it to glide times based on their experience as users however!! so that they guess work is just that a guess

Only people that can realistically give a comparison of glide vs. mantle are developers that has worked/is working at both of these times.

Again only people that can realistically give a comparison of Dx vs. Mantle are developers that has worked/is working at both of these times. So this rules out everybody except the actual developers (currently developing on mantle) that are giving statements as to how easy it is to develop for mantle.

One example is Nitrous, they began developing for Dx in mind and multi threading application on it must be amasing to say the least looking at Dx portion of the comparison video. However, when they were producing and getting good results, they were introduced with mantle, just one guy in rodeo hat take it up to him to change coding of their own engine into mantle ready one and it took two months of that single guy to get the preliminary results. We all know that presentation now, and how they kept saying it is just bare minimum working version as it was just made to work in mantle nothing more (no optimisation..) and results are obvious.

Now you may argue that while Dx is actually great on it's own and mantle doesn't necessarily carry it's own merits, and used only for cinematic motion blur etc. You still don't know the full extents of it when that engine will be used in 3 games. IF dx is good performance vs mantle good performance at extra cinematic motion blur, then still it is a step in the right direction for a better IQ. IF dx is good performance at 2000 units vs mantle good performance at extra cinematic motion blur + 5000 and more units, then not only it is a step in right direction towards better IQ but also a better experience.

And my guess is backed by yet another producer, Nixxes, which in these slides http://www.slideshare.net/DevCentra...-new-amd-technology-by-jurjen-katsman#btnNext talks about both CPU and GPU performance improvement AND getting expensive compute based effects at low performance cost AND gettin a higher draw distance without losing performance.

Also on slide 26, it says and I quote "we spend a lot of time on consoles to develop best practices GCN and CPU: heavily multithreaded rendering, asynchronous compute, That's where the complexity is, This now translates easily to the PC.
 

DamnedLife

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If you're talking about the ARM core for offloaded draw calls on Nvidia gpu, that sounds like complete BS to me to be frank.

Let's say it's true though - it's gonna need it's own API to make use of it as there is clearly no way to do this in DX or OGL currently.

They will use OpenGL and not the current one but a "modern" one, one that they will help in coding, and it's safe to assume it will bring nv up and front while heasvily punishing amd cards which is just their business strategy.

And they will do this to enter the Steam machine business and kick amd out. http://media.steampowered.com/img/SDD/agenda_grid_2.png Day2, 3 PM
 
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They will use OpenGL and not the current one but a "modern" one, one that they will help in coding, and it's safe to assume it will bring nv up and front while heasvily punishing amd cards which is just their business strategy.

And they will do this to enter the Steam machine business and kick amd out. http://media.steampowered.com/img/SDD/agenda_grid_2.png Day2, 3 PM

Thats old news, NV is attempting an OpenGL initiative to combat Mantle. If Mantle lives to its hype..

NV have a few quick solutions.

1. Try to get more NV sponsored titles to incorporate useless tessellation on flat surfaces.
2. Disable AA when NV games detect AMD GPUs.
3. Add more PhysX fluff and hype it up to the max.
4. Give out G-SYNC modules for a massively discounted price to entice gamers to stick with the NV ecosystem.

These are all quick and easy moves. An OpenGL initiative is more longterm. But who knows, maybe Mantle is a crud and it barely provides 10% performance improvements and we will all have wasted our lives in this thread arguing over crud. Soon!
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
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Offtopic, but I'm interested in their video interpolation thing too. Do we know if it's coming to dGPUs?

pretty lame if it's Kaveri only :s
 

DamnedLife

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Dec 26, 2013
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BTW the image from my previous post is newly leaked and seems you guys missed it.

In laymans terms, it says NV is going to use OpenGL to fight against Mantle API....
 

DamnedLife

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BrightCandle

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Nvidia already has a lot of extensions for openGL. Its got less overhead as an API compared to DX and its a true standard used the world over. Makes a lot of sense to take what works and provide extensions for those features that developers are requesting rather than throwing everything out.

Really what we need is Oxide using openGL and extensions on Nvidia as a comparison with their new fancy draw call heavy motion blur.

Back in the day I understood why openGL died, it wasn't improving fast enough, but now it has sort of caught up (not quite) its a lot more viable than it was before, advantage also being its on all the mobile phones/tablets/PS3/Linux/Windows etc. IE its on pretty much everything already.
 

DamnedLife

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Nvidia already has a lot of extensions for openGL. Its got less overhead as an API compared to DX and its a true standard used the world over. Makes a lot of sense to take what works and provide extensions for those features that developers are requesting rather than throwing everything out.

Really what we need is Oxide using openGL and extensions on Nvidia as a comparison with their new fancy draw call heavy motion blur.

Back in the day I understood why openGL died, it wasn't improving fast enough, but now it has sort of caught up (not quite) its a lot more viable than it was before, advantage also being its on all the mobile phones/tablets/PS3/Linux/Windows etc. IE its on pretty much everything already.
Mate http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/03/11/carmack-directx-better-opengl/1
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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They already said nvidia have the minimum feature levels to my knowledge

let me explain to you how this works:

DX9 needs minimum hardware feature levels to work, each vendor implement such features in their own way, DX9 has to add all the "bad overhead" in order to support all vendors.

DX11 and OpenGL the same thing, but Nvidia has OpenGL extensions that are Nvidia specific and can only be used on nvidia hardware.

So, what Microsoft could do? release a Nvidia, AMD and Intel specific Directx versions -or extensions- to work around the overheads that are caused by software layers, (the Xbox DX is just that) the end result is, well incompatibility and a lot of work overload on dev side as they need to support all vendor specific stuff, something that the API was handling in the past.

What kind of black magic Mantle do in order to work on diferent feature sets on diferent arquitectures and yet mantaining compatibility?(meaning, you need to program ONCE something that works on all hardware). Multi-vendor support if ever happens, it will be like the one on DX or OpenGL.

AMD already screwed us with Mantle, at this point i dont even care if its good or not, because Nvidia gona work with OpenGL and his Nvidia specific extensions to combat it, meaning, we are screwed, i need to choose a AMD card to play Mantle titles or a Nvidia card to play nvidia tiles, yes yes, DX gona be there too yeah, with a highly unoptimised with limitations for sure.

BTW, im wonder what Intel will do.
 
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Jaydip

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2010
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let me explain to you how this works:

DX9 needs minimum hardware feature levels to work, each vendor implement such features in their own way, DX9 has to add all the "bad overhead" in order to support all vendors.

DX11 and OpenGL the same thing, but Nvidia has OpenGL extensions that are Nvidia specific and can only be used on nvidia hardware.

So, what Microsoft could do? release a Nvidia, AMD and Intel specific Directx versions -or extensions- to work around the overheads that are caused by software layers, (the Xbox DX is just that) the end result is, well incompatibility and a lot of work overload on dev side as they need to support all vendor specific stuff, something that the API was handling in the past.

What kind of black magic Mantle do in order to work on diferent feature sets on diferent arquitectures and yet mantaining compatibility?(meaning, you need to program ONCE something that works on all hardware). Multi-vendor support if ever happens, it will be like the one on DX or OpenGL.

AMD already screwed us with Mantle, at this point i dont even care if its good or not, because Nvidia gona work with OpenGL and his Nvidia specific extensions to combat it, meaning, we are screwed, i need to choose a AMD card to play Mantle titles or a Nvidia card to play nvidia tiles, yes yes, DX gona be there too yeah, with a highly unoptimised with limitations for sure.

BTW, im wonder what Intel will do.

Pretty simple really, just give them a couple of bucks to use their compiler ()
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
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Intel is writing extensions for DirectX. Fragmentation, its wonderfull :-(

I don't know how viable it is in reality, but if AMD, Nvidia and Intel each could create DirectX extensions for solving the draw calls problem, wouldn't that be a quite good solution?

I understand it's more work for the programmers if there's a specific extension for each architecture, but wouldn't it still mean less work than having to support a whole extra API, which some studios already will do with Mantle? Assuming it would be for DX11.0, it wouldn't require a new Windows either

How much specific optimizations go into GE and TWIMTBP titles?
 
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bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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Physx takes ressources away from amd cards the same way mantle does the other way.
Except with mantle half the future gaming market is on cgn consoles sharing the cost. That means far bigger momentum behind mantle.
PhysX works on all systems. The highest PhysX settings in some games are too much for the CPU to handle and require an Nvidia GPU. That is a bit different than Mantle. Don't you think?

That said, I was thinking more in terms of G-sync vs Mantle. G-sync has no adverse effect on anyone without it. Mantle might. PhysX may slightly have adverse effects. G-sync coming out as proprietary is much better than it not coming out at all. It also has 0 effect on those without it.
 

bystander36

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Apr 1, 2013
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And with Mantle you just won't dip to 30 fps because these dips are mostly DX related.

Let's say 30-40 fps on the Nvidia solution is the same as 50-60 fps on the Mantle solution in terms of image quality, smoothness etc. This is something that Mantle is capable of maintaining while NEVER having the sub-30 fps dips that the Nvidia solution will sometimes suffer from.
Are you only buying Mantle games?
 

ASM-coder

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Jan 12, 2014
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I don't know how viable it is in reality, but if AMD, Nvidia and Intel each could create DirectX extensions for solving the draw calls problem, wouldn't that be a quite good solution?
Aren't we living in that scenario already? If Nvidia has OpenGL extensions for their cards only, I assume
they must also have some DirectX tricks that give them their purported advantages.
And along those lines, in regards to sharing technology, nVidia's response
is "They have to do the work. They have to hire the guys to figure it out."
AMD is at least willing to make Mantle open.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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That said, I was thinking more in terms of G-sync vs Mantle. G-sync has no adverse effect on anyone without it. Mantle might. PhysX may slightly have adverse effects. G-sync coming out as proprietary is much better than it not coming out at all. It also has 0 effect on those without it.

Mantle might have adverse effects on anyone without it?

Are you only buying Mantle games?

Before long I would hope that was the case, yes.
 

sushiwarrior

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Mar 17, 2010
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PhysX works on all systems. The highest PhysX settings in some games are too much for the CPU to handle and require an Nvidia GPU. That is a bit different than Mantle. Don't you think?

That said, I was thinking more in terms of G-sync vs Mantle. G-sync has no adverse effect on anyone without it. Mantle might. PhysX may slightly have adverse effects. G-sync coming out as proprietary is much better than it not coming out at all. It also has 0 effect on those without it.

PhysX runs in an absolutely gimped manner on a CPU, yes... Last I heard, they used horribly outdated instruction sets to make GPU performance look so much comparatively better. EDIT: Nevermind, that changed in 2010! My bad

Plus Nvidia won't let you use an Nvidia PhysX card when you have an AMD GPU, no big surprise there... Green team wants all the green they can get I think they're just way more confident about achieving success while being proprietary, AMD wants success through creating a universal standard (which is kind of a stupid business move, but it's good for consumers).

I wonder if Nvidia would ever add support for Mantle if it really took off. I have a feeling they wouldn't on principle, they are competitive like that.
 
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bystander36

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Apr 1, 2013
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Mantle might have adverse effects on anyone without it?
If it effects the direction of games, and quality of the DX and Mantle versions of the game. They have to split some focus. Like the motion blur feature on the swarm demo. The feature clearly took a Mantle approach, rather than a DX approach at it. Now most gamers won't ever be able to use that feature.
 

bystander36

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Apr 1, 2013
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PhysX runs in an absolutely gimped manner on a CPU, yes... Last I heard, they used horribly outdated instruction sets to make GPU performance look so much comparatively better.
That changed several years ago. Now many people even play BL2 with advanced PhysX options on AMD/Intel systems.
 
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