The AMD Mantle Thread

[Carfax83]

Edit: Yes, they do use DR
Source : https://twitter.com/repi/status/424155738613620736

Interesting. But that can't be their default rendering path, as AMD does not support deferred context..

If deferred context is supported, perhaps that's why NVidia has the lead on AMD now in BF4; especially multiplayer. I noticed that the 331.82 drivers had much better performance in BF4, compared to the 331.65 launch drivers.

I'm sure NVidia has been polishing and improving their drivers throughout this time..

 

[Carfax83]

Deferred contexts just doesn't work well for Dice. The minimal amount of games supporting it suggests it doesn't work well for many others either.

Here's a few twitters where repi talks about it
https://twitter.com/repi/status/387579980260970496
https://twitter.com/ZedCull/status/271309510709215232
https://twitter.com/repi/status/278211875269902337
https://twitter.com/repi/status/154828634706808832

He doesn't specify whether he's talking about NVidia or AMD in those tweets, because AMD tried to implement deferred context in their drivers, but they either got not performance improvement or it performed worse.

With NVidia however, there was a performance increase in both Civ 5 and Assassin's Creed III. Project CARS due at the end of the year will also use the technology.

And now we know that Frosbite engine does support deferred rendering natively, but the key to unlocking it is proper driver support. NVidia has gotten the edge lately in BF4 though, so it does seem as though they are working on it.

I'm sure it's a difficult thing to do, as all responsibility for thread management falls on the driver.

 

[Gloomy]

deferred rendering != deferred context...

 

[Markymarc206]

Since this topic is pretty hot right now. Anyone care to chime in on my question on the last page (very bottom)

Much appreciated.

 

[SiliconWars]

This mantle tech is really putting a major halt in my build. I want it and an AMD card because it says it adds 45% towards BF4 (the only game that I play) but then I was thinking is this only with a 45% boost with one of AMD's APU's? What if I have an intel cpu 4670k will I see a drastic boost in gameplay vs a 760 for the same price as a R9 270x?

You'll get similar performance with any recent CPU. It's possible that Kaveri might have extra performance if DICE has used the extra shaders in asymmetric crossfire - but even then it would be 10% maximum and more like 5% I think.

 

[dacostafilipe]

deferred rendering != deferred context...

Sure about that? What's the difference?

Here they mix both : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476892(v=vs.85).aspx

 

[dacostafilipe]

This mantle tech is really putting a major halt in my build. I want it and an AMD card because it says it adds 45% towards BF4 (the only game that I play) but then I was thinking is this only with a 45% boost with one of AMD's APU's? What if I have an intel cpu 4670k will I see a drastic boost in gameplay vs a 760 for the same price as a R9 270x?

The 45% are only in the case that your CPU (AMD or Intel) is struggling to render the game. If you are fine on the CPU side, hardware.fr talks about 10% improvements in perf.

 

[Carfax83]

deferred rendering != deferred context...

I guess it depends on the context. It can mean both, or deferred rendering can also mean deferred shading, which was most likely what repi was referring to now that I think of it.

So yeah, FB engine doesn't support deferred context, but it supports deferred shading.

 

[Markymarc206]

Thanks! Much appreciated.

 

[krumme]

This mantle tech is really putting a major halt in my build. I want it and an AMD card because it says it adds 45% towards BF4 (the only game that I play) but then I was thinking is this only with a 45% boost with one of AMD's APU's? What if I have an intel cpu 4670k will I see a drastic boost in gameplay vs a 760 for the same price as a R9 270x?

If you only play bf4 - or it plays a major role - you want gcn core gfx running mantle. I only play bf4 at the moment and its THE game for me.

Especially because we can expect the mantle version to improve relatively more as its completely new driver and api. Secondly bf5 is surely building on the same engine because of the consoles and an engines evolves slowly.

With the very strong cpu you have there as said dont expect more than 8-10%. A good deal more with msaa enabled. I personally hope for 20% uplift with msaa.

But it also depends how sensitive you personally are to dips because of cpu utilization. I think for a fps game like bf4 dips is very anwanted and the added help of mantle can probably really turn most of those dips away or stay less irritating. So even if the uplift is say only 8% in general if the uplift is 80% where it matters most and your fps is lowest mantle is a huge improvement imho.

 

[ASM-coder]

So that's it? Everything is cleared up? Mantle is merely a fix for bad driver code on the part of AMD. Someone should have sent some nVidia cards to Dice, so they wouldn't have wasted all this time and effort on 1% of the install base. Oh well.

Let's stick to facts please. Unless you like derailing threads which will get you on vacation in no time.

-Rvenger

 

[Spjut]

He doesn't specify whether he's talking about NVidia or AMD in those tweets, because AMD tried to implement deferred context in their drivers, but they either got not performance improvement or it performed worse.

With NVidia however, there was a performance increase in both Civ 5 and Assassin's Creed III. Project CARS due at the end of the year will also use the technology.

And now we know that Frosbite engine does support deferred rendering natively, but the key to unlocking it is proper driver support. NVidia has gotten the edge lately in BF4 though, so it does seem as though they are working on it.

I'm sure it's a difficult thing to do, as all responsibility for thread management falls on the driver.

And as far as I'm aware, those are the only games confirmed to even use it. It's clearly not working for everyone.

I simply don't see DX11 multithreaded rendering as the solution, since almost no one uses it, and a studio like Dice says it's not working for their uses.
When studios are prepared to spend time and money on supporting a whole new API (Mantle in this case, also proprietary) something clearly isn't right. And in the case of Dice, Johan Andersson has said he has pitched this idea to all vendors before, and he hopes it will make Microsoft improve DirectX.

But if it currently could be solved by AMD/Nvidia improving their DirectX or OpenGL drivers, then that's what the studios would demand. Mantle isn't free for either AMD or the game studios.

 

[TerryMathews]

So that's it? Everything is cleared up? Mantle is merely a fix for bad driver code on the part of AMD. Someone should have sent some nVidia cards to Dice, so they wouldn't have wasted all this time and effort on 1% of the install base. Oh well.

I said pages back, hubris was Nvidia's worst enemy. Also, market share is much higher than 1% on AMD's part.

 

[DamnedLife]

Wow amd's market share is getting smaller every time someone guess from top of their head. Whole amd cards are 45% of market, 15%of it GCN but it's also ever expanding. So nope it's not 1% mate take a walk will ya.

 

[krumme]

So that's it? Everything is cleared up? Mantle is merely a fix for bad driver code on the part of AMD. Someone should have sent some nVidia cards to Dice, so they wouldn't have wasted all this time and effort on 1% of the install base. Oh well.

No it was all a mistake because EA thought they got 8B to build mantle into their future engine for all their games. Instead they only got 8M.

 

[krumme]

Also, market share is much higher than 1% on AMD's part.

Thats because you dont realize all people play bf4 using their old Intel core i3 with integrated gpu and that the new consoles have absolutely NOTHING to do with Mantle.

Do i have to repeat for you: Mantle is for PC. The consoles have their own low level API. And just look at steam for AMD marketshare !

 

[smackababy]

Thats because you dont realize all people play bf4 using their old Intel core i3 with integrated gpu and that the new consoles have absolutely NOTHING to do with Mantle.

Do i have to repeat for you: Mantle is for PC. The consoles have their own low level API. And just look at steam for AMD marketshare !

I think he was suggesting GCN cards are around 5%, not 1%. That is discrete cards only IIRC.

 

[krumme]

"How one engine is shaping the future of EA Games"
http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/19/electronic-arts-frostbite-battlefield-mass-effect/

(warning: marketing like material )

 

[ASM-coder]

Wow amd's market share is getting smaller every time someone guess from top of their head. Whole amd cards are 45% of market, 15%of it GCN but it's also ever expanding. So nope it's not 1% mate take a walk will ya.

Sorry my attempt at sarcasm failed, and is unappreciated. I happen to believe Mantle is a worthwhile venture, and I am still very optimistic.

 

[krumme]

I think he was suggesting GCN cards are around 5%, not 1%. That is discrete cards only IIRC.

My point is that all future AMD cards is using mantle and the performance games using mantle is just comming now. All consoles use more or less same tech. You make your new performance games to run mostly on the new tech.

Ofcource EA knows that. They are nothing but marketshare and profit.

Do people want an new api to be designed for old hardware. Its mad. We have dx for that doing a fine job.

 

[krumme]

Sorry my attempt at sarcasm failed, and is unappreciated. I happen to believe Mantle is a worthwhile venture, and I am still very optimistic.

Lol. Well i thought it was funny in itself, but i knew it would fail, making it yet more funny Look at all us Europeans failing at beeing sarcastic all the time. Cultural differences you gotta love it.

 

[3DVagabond]

This mantle tech is really putting a major halt in my build. I want it and an AMD card because it says it adds 45% towards BF4 (the only game that I play) but then I was thinking is this only with a 45% boost with one of AMD's APU's? What if I have an intel cpu 4670k will I see a drastic boost in gameplay vs a 760 for the same price as a R9 270x?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the improvement percentage was helped by using the APU. How much, who knows. We'd need to know res and settings to try and determine that.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

"How one engine is shaping the future of EA Games"
http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/19/electronic-arts-frostbite-battlefield-mass-effect/

(warning: marketing like material )

That was a strange article...

Reads like pure frostbite marketing, and ends with you can't have it unless you're with EA.

Very strange.

 

[Carfax83]

And as far as I'm aware, those are the only games confirmed to even use it. It's clearly not working for everyone.

Assassin's Creed IV may use it as well, as NVidia has quite a large lead in that game. It's hard to tell though as the engine is internally capped at 62 FPS. At any rate, we'll never see wide support of this tech as long as AMD does not implement it in their drivers, which they still haven't done..

That combined with the fact that even NVidia took their time when it came to supporting command lists, a lot of the buzz surrounding DX11 multithreading has died down.

What would make it buzz worthy again is if some major games this year supported it. So far we have Project CARS, which is a major game. Hopefully Watch Dogs and Witcher 3 might support it as well, as they are both NVidia sponsored titles.

I simply don't see DX11 multithreaded rendering as the solution, since almost no one uses it, and a studio like Dice says it's not working for their uses.

As it currently is, you're right, it's not the solution. But it could be I think if it were improved.

I could easily see DX12 having an improved MANDATORY version of deferred context rendering via an improved driver model and a more multithreaded API.

When studios are prepared to spend time and money on supporting a whole new API (Mantle in this case, also proprietary) something clearly isn't right. And in the case of Dice, Johan Andersson has said he has pitched this idea to all vendors before, and he hopes it will make Microsoft improve DirectX.

Well Mantle definitely has a lot of attention right now, so I'm sure Microsoft is finally being pressured into fully confronting the performance issues of Direct3D.

But if it currently could be solved by AMD/Nvidia improving their DirectX or OpenGL drivers, then that's what the studios would demand. Mantle isn't free for either AMD or the game studios.

Mantle could never be a full replacement for Direct3D. It has no backward compatibility and limited architectural support which automatically makes it dead on arrival.

You may say that DirectX can linger around for backward compatibility, and Mantle for everything else, but that just needlessly adds more burden to developers to have to support and maintain two rendering paths.

Mantle and Direct3D cannot co-exist forever, due to limited resources. Eventually, one will eat the other.

 

[blastingcap]

I try to avoid buying EA products so Frostbite doesn't matter much for me. Oxide's engine is more relevant to me especially since one of their main guys is Brad from Stardock who is generally very pro-PC-gamer and "meh" on consoles. Unreal has had a nice run but if they refuse to incorporate Mantle into their engine, I hope they f'ing die in a fire. It shouldn't be hard to incorporate it, according to Oxide, so if that is the case, the only reason I can tell for Unreal not to do it is because they are bought and paid for by NV.

Mantle and Direct3D cannot co-exist forever, due to limited resources. Eventually, one will eat the other.

I expect Mantle to die, but not before throwing a scare into Microsoft so that DX12 is more Mantle-like. And that's fine by me because it's a victory for all gamers.