The words you are looking for are "total value proposition"...
Exactly, and some are willing to pay big bucks for that. Mantle is free. Why complain about a free performance upgrade, no matter how good it is?
I don't care what the 290x can put out for raw frames, the hardware quality and QC is still suspect. People think game fps #'s are what dictate a quality card from one that's suspect. Look at the bigger picture. The die quality, the power delivery components, the pcb, traces, the heatsink and its design etc etc.........its 2nd class hardware regardless if it outperforms a titan or a 780 or whatever else you can think of in a few benchmarks.
I invite everyone to watch the dev interviews where they explain that Mantle doesn't just increase fps. The draw call overhead is greatly reduced (DX is up to 40%) so your GPU isn't waiting on the CPU. Even if you aren't CPU limited your CPU is still not feeding your GPU as fast as the GPU can accept because DX sucks that bad. Mantle gives you full CPU scaling. You might go from 60 to 63-66fps (5-10% gain), but the graphics will be better with many many more objects on screen because of the increase in # draw calls and full cpu scaling. Better physics can now also happen. Artist also don't have to limit themselves because of performance concerns so environments and characters are going to be more vibrant.
I also find it hilarious that people are talking about # of games or lack there off that will support Mantle. Mantle isn't getting added to any games right now. It's being added to the ENGINES that they run on. BF4 is getting Mantle by virtue that Frostbite is getting it, not that they are adding it to BF4. When you add support to an engine the implementation to a game is a lot less intensive.
Except Mantle isn't free. AMD might not be charging us, the end user, to have it included in games, but the development cost of those games goes up, even if it is only slightly. So, they either have to do more (include Mantle) with less budget or have a larger budget to include it. What is more likely to happen in the real world? A publisher saying "here's more money, go right ahead" or "here is your budget and your release date; get it done with what you have." There is a huge possibly we might be getting less total product to accomplish DX and Mantle versions. Now, the big question we can't answer is how much less of a product.
Mantle is not free.
Except the engine devs are the ones that already soaked the extra 2 months to implement Mantle.
Yes I am. Total Value Proposition sums it up perfectly.
Plenty your right, but its still the major one.
Again when Mantle finally comes out for BF4 and the posted results are minimal/marginal where real world in game improvements are in reality non existant, make sure you post back to this thread.
Such an engine is comparable to an API. And since the interface likely doesn't habe to change a lot*), the game itself doesn't need big changes. It's not like a switch, of course. But some rebalancing of the game code regarding internal timing and thread syncing might be necessary.And do you actually believe that because an engine supports Mantle, they can just check a box when they compile and the game is "Mantle ready"?
I would not call quality of the components and materials used as an ancillary feature.......but regardless........I never said Nvidia products applies to all users as a better value either, nor did I imply that outright, but for the majority, yes.And I will accept that Nvidia cards are a better total value for some people who place an emphasis on ancillary features.
It is disingenuous to imply that applies to all users. A large portion of the gaming population value performance/price above everything else, and by that standard these AMD cards are better.
Such an engine is comparable to an API. And since the interface likely doesn't habe to change a lot*), the game itself doesn't need big changes. It's not like a switch, of course. But some rebalancing of the game code regarding internal timing and thread syncing might be necessary.
*) IMO textures remain the same, objects still consist of the same primitives, shader code is the same, etc. Mantle is about communication.
Regardless as it stands now, AMD actually loses on the "value" performance/price category now as well too. Thanks to the mining fad.....
They have to be feeling the pressure big time. If Mantle doesn't perform well, no one can say its because they didn't try hard enough. They are betting a lot on this first impression of mantle.
If nothing else, Mantle has performed well as an advertising platform.They have to be feeling the pressure big time. If Mantle doesn't perform well, no one can say its because they didn't try hard enough. They are betting a lot on this first impression of mantle.
I can't wait to see the 290X "ridicule" the Titan.
They have to be feeling the pressure big time. If Mantle doesn't perform well, no one can say its because they didn't try hard enough. They are betting a lot on this first impression of mantle.
I think also EA have a lot invested in this. But bf4 is not a rts game. And its an cost/benefit consideration and we dont know the cost side besides some extremely optimistic claims from the devs.
So even when we get a better understanding of perf we will still lack the cost side. And it takes more time to show. So only time will show anyway if its a success. I dont see this bf4 perf as a now as anything but an indication.
That quote was in reference to Battlefield 4 performance though. The 290X is already faster than a Titan right now in DX11 in Battlefield 4 in a lot of benchmarks. Not by much, but still faster.
Even if Mantle brings only 10% more performance for a high end GPU like 290X it will just come down to your definition of 'ridicule'. Obviously that was a marketing claim, for me ridicule would mean at least 25-30% faster. My expectation is 10-20% performance boost for high end cards like 290 and 290X in BF4. In the tight knit race of high end cards between AMD and nvidia that is more than enough to tip the scales to AMD in Mantle enabled games.
That quote was in reference to Battlefield 4 performance though. The 290X is already faster than a Titan right now in DX11 in Battlefield 4 in a lot of benchmarks. Not by much, but still faster.
Even if Mantle brings only 10% more performance for a high end GPU like 290X it will just come down to your definition of 'ridicule'. Obviously that was a marketing claim, for me ridicule would mean at least 25-30% faster. My expectation is 10-20% performance boost for high end cards like 290 and 290X in BF4. In the tight knit race of high end cards between AMD and nvidia that is more than enough to tip the scales to AMD in Mantle enabled games.
Sad part about most of the naysayers in this thread claiming they think 0 performance gains on top end cards or a few FPS is that their statements would be more accurate if you substituted hope for think. Some just don't want to see any benefit because it's from AMD and that will break their hearts. Others are saying nonsense like 50%+ which is ridiculous.
I hope it makes a big difference. Enough that the 7950 I have performs as fast as one of my 780tis. That would be awesome.
There is only one definition of ridicule as a verb: subject (someone or something) to mockery and derision. A video card, to my knowledge, is unable to ridicule anything. That is the reason the quote continues to be brought up. Not only was unlikely in the assumption that Mantle will offer some 40% performance gains across the board and it was pretty poor English.
There is only one definition of ridicule as a verb: subject (someone or something) to mockery and derision. A video card, to my knowledge, is unable to ridicule anything. That is the reason the quote continues to be brought up. Not only was unlikely in the assumption that Mantle will offer some 40% performance gains across the board and it was pretty poor English.
Yeah. It would make you daft if you coudn't fathom it. And 290x is better than Titan w/o Mantle, so it is still plausible Don't forget Titan is great for double precision rendering, not exactly a gaming card to begin with.That is just being pedantic. People speak in analogies all the time. No different than claiming you 'owned someone' or 'laid waste to'. Give me a break, everyone who read that quote understood the claim was ridiculing the card in performance Most's issue with the claim were not grammar-police related but understanding ridicule would mean a huge lead in performance....
Do you have issues with metaphors?There is only one definition of ridicule as a verb: subject (someone or something) to mockery and derision. A video card, to my knowledge, is unable to ridicule anything. That is the reason the quote continues to be brought up. Not only was unlikely in the assumption that Mantle will offer some 40% performance gains across the board and it was pretty poor English.