The AMD Mantle Thread

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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
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That is just being pedantic. People speak in analogies all the time. No different than claiming you 'owned someone' or 'laid waste to'. Give me a break, everyone who read that quote understood the claim was ridiculing the card in performance Most's issue with the claim were not grammar-police related but understanding ridicule would mean a huge lead in performance....

Let me get this straight and on the record. Are you, Grooveriding, in fact saying that a video card has never physically opened a can of whoop ass before?

Ban!

I see this sentiment often that it's not good for AMD if nVidia is faster in games they sponsor. It should be obvious by now that AMD doesn't concentrate on making games perform worse on nVidia cards. It's good for gamers. That's all any of us should care about. All AMD gets is early optimization advantage. Rather than seeing it as a negative for AMD you should simply see it as a positive. Especially if you own nVidia hardware.

It isn't good for AMD if people like me, with GCN hardware, no longer put weight behind their "Gaming Evolved" program, which they pay money to implement. For Mantle specifically, it won't be good given all of this attention and ink that the BF4 patch has and will garner at launch.
 
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marinlik

Junior Member
Mar 24, 2012
9
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While that's possible and it was an APU demo, I still think they were also trying to show a best case scenario. FWIU (and this is 2nd hand info) the "up to 45% in BF4" isn't meant as up to 45% in one spot of one map, it's up to 45% boost in BF4 overall/avg. depending on hardware. Remember this is just one game, so it can't be extrapolated as meaning all games will be up to 45%, just BF4. Other games could be more or less. This is an early implementation and not on an ideal game genre (fps as opposed to rts, for example), so it should get even better as more mantle optimizations are explored.

Why would it be up to 45% better on average for some? I mean they have no problem saying stuff like up to 30% better performance when it comes to drivers, and more often then not it's actually a fraction of that and then 30% at one wierd place. Why would it be different now?
 
Feb 19, 2009
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If you're testing GPU performance, what difference does it make whether the server is empty or full?

CPU performance on the other hand relies on a populated server, because the more players you have the more CPU power is needed...

GameGPU knows this, which is why their CPU test used a populated server.

Because that's not how BF3 or BF4 works, 64 player servers punish GPUs in an entirely different way. Contrary to your logic and what all players know. Empty server is a gimmick bench and useless. People don't buy BF series to run around on empty servers.

It's close, hope Mantle lives to the hype. I have some $ ready for a A10 HTPC mITX rig, hoping it handles 1080p BF4 on medium settings.
 

jj109

Senior member
Dec 17, 2013
391
59
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Because that's not how BF3 or BF4 works, 64 player servers punish GPUs in an entirely different way. Contrary to your logic and what all players know. Empty server is a gimmick bench and useless.

It's like none of you guys here have actually played BF4. It doesn't matter how many players are in the server. If it isn't being rendered, then it doesn't meaningfully contribute to the GPU bottleneck. 64-player large conquest is all about map-size and draw distance crushing CPUs. And explosions too.





My own easily reproducible tests against published benchmarks in BF4 campaign suggests that AMD has up to a 40% disadvantage in CPU-bottlenecked performance. This is probably due to BF4 not being able to parallelize DX API calls without command list support and various other inefficiencies with using custom threads.

Of course, that's just my theory and I don't know if the benchmarks I compared against are screwed up somehow. I don't have a $500 AMD laying around to test with, but if someone wants to dispute this, run this section 1080p High Preset:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nob3ai39WKw

Oh and here's the review I compared against:

http://www.hardcoreware.net/kaveri-review-a10-7850k/4/
 
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rancherlee

Senior member
Jul 9, 2000
707
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It's like none of you guys here have actually played BF4. It doesn't matter how many players are in the server. If it isn't being rendered, then it doesn't meaningfully contribute to the GPU bottleneck. 64-player large conquest is all about map-size and draw distance crushing CPUs. And explosions too.

I agree, when I'm on an Empty server I see an average of ~60-65fps @ 1080P ultra and my CPU is at 75-80%. When I'm on a 64man Conquest server I STILL see 60-65fps when my CPU can keep up, its usually pegged at 95-100% and the CPU causes FPS drops. Empty vs. 64 man makes VERY little difference on GPU performance in my experience.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
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Likewise I have found that I am always GPU limited. I run the game at 110-170 fps and its always limited by the GPU in 64 player games. I don't think its likely to be a good poster child for Mantle for this very reason, its simply not CPU limited as far as I can tell. Admittedly if you have a weaker CPU it might be, but its certainly not a problem I have either.
 

Bobisuruncle54

Senior member
Oct 19, 2011
333
0
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It's like none of you guys here have actually played BF4. It doesn't matter how many players are in the server. If it isn't being rendered, then it doesn't meaningfully contribute to the GPU bottleneck. 64-player large conquest is all about map-size and draw distance crushing CPUs. And explosions too.

Bench the same view in multi-player when you've got 2 tanks there shooting each other, people shooting with debris coming off walls, a helicopter flying above kicking up dust and a jeep blowing up.

Empty vs full isn't even comparable. Don't forget about the amount of additional polys drawn, lighting, shadows, volumetric effects and post processing that suddenly has to work on a much more complex scene.
 

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
928
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Yes, and all theories have good supporting evidence. Whilst the BF4 benchmark I posted doesn't admittedly constitute good evidence (I basically posted that to show you that you were wrong in saying that the 290x was faster than the Titan in BF4), the benchmarks at PClab.pl do:

Benchmarks

These benchmarks show beyond a doubt that what I'm saying is true.

The only games in this benchmark that have a CLEAR lead on Nvidia are BF4, Black Flag (which also is a TWIMTBP game) and Witcher 2 using quad cores. All around, AMD seems to perform better on dual core than Nvidia, even beating out the quad cores.
The rest of them are just showing a difference of 1-5 FPS, in favor of both AMD and Nvidia depending on the game.


Since Mantle is coming, I wouldn't be surprised if AMD does very little optimizations for the DX11 path for their GPUs.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
1,260
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It's like none of you guys here have actually played BF4. It doesn't matter how many players are in the server. If it isn't being rendered, then it doesn't meaningfully contribute to the GPU bottleneck.

Is this for real ? I think the logic impediment in the thread has reached new heights.

Yeah it doesn't matter if there are 0 or 64 players on a server, because even if there are 64 players they are all hiding in their spawns, doing nothing and not affecting what is happening on the screen's of other players....

So much FUD.
 

TeknoBug

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,084
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True, GPU performance doesn't change in empty vs 64 player, but it will change once the CPU becomes the bottleneck such as hitting 99-100% at all times in 64 player and not being able to keep up with the event processing, such as using a Phenom II X4 955 or such. My A10 6800K (with a GTX560Ti GPU) can't handle 64 players, I did little tests in spectator mode watching players in Gullin Peak and Siege of Shanghai and the graph spikes up an awful lot and FPS drops to 30-35fps in many areas. Same map and server on my FX 4350 w/ GTX760 and i5 3550 w/ R9 280X has little to no impact whatsoever and can sit between 60-120fps.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
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The biggest impact that more players has on performance is CPU, not GPU. Yes GPU has to do a little more. But the CPU has to do a LOT more.

This is where mantle will help. Even a 4.5GHz SNB will average 90-95% CPU utilization on a 64 man conquest map. Drop that CPU load some, and the CPU is free to doing other things which increases performance.

Not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
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While that's possible and it was an APU demo, I still think they were also trying to show a best case scenario. FWIU (and this is 2nd hand info) the "up to 45% in BF4" isn't meant as up to 45% in one spot of one map, it's up to 45% boost in BF4 overall/avg. depending on hardware. Remember this is just one game, so it can't be extrapolated as meaning all games will be up to 45%, just BF4. Other games could be more or less. This is an early implementation and not on an ideal game genre (fps as opposed to rts, for example), so it should get even better as more mantle optimizations are explored.
Where did you read that?

It could be, but we have no way of knowing as far as I know. Do you have some information to cite?
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
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Don't forget some of the features have been disabled in the PC version of BF4. Such as grass movement when walking or crawling through it. Trees and bushes reacting to explosions and wind.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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Because that's not how BF3 or BF4 works, 64 player servers punish GPUs in an entirely different way. Contrary to your logic and what all players know. Empty server is a gimmick bench and useless. People don't buy BF series to run around on empty servers.

I've played BF4 on 64 man servers and it just wasn't GPU intensive at all.

As has been mentioned by several posters, your GPU only renders what's on your screen, which is only a slice of the action.

The CPU on the other hand is busy doing all sorts of things to keep up with all of the various state changes, tracking and updates that are happening across the entire match, visible or not..

BF4 isn't really much of a GPU intensive title. If you want to see a real GPU intensive title, play Crysis 3.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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The only games in this benchmark that have a CLEAR lead on Nvidia are BF4, Black Flag (which also is a TWIMTBP game) and Witcher 2 using quad cores. All around, AMD seems to perform better on dual core than Nvidia, even beating out the quad cores.
The rest of them are just showing a difference of 1-5 FPS, in favor of both AMD and Nvidia depending on the game..

You obviously didn't read the entire review, and you also missed the whole point of what I was saying.

If you actually read the review, you'll see a trend. The trend is that games that can utilize more than two threads, perform better on NVidia hardware provided the CPU has at least four threads; whether dual core + hyperthreading or true quad core.

This implies that NVidia has optimized their drivers for multicore processors to a greater extent than AMD has.
 
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Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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Don't forget some of the features have been disabled in the PC version of BF4. Such as grass movement when walking or crawling through it. Trees and bushes reacting to explosions and wind.

That's all handled server side apparently. Same thing with the water physics.

Even the cloth and gear physics were disabled, which is B.S, because those should be handled client side. I mean, you can't even enjoy those supposedly "next gen" features in campaign mode D:
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Apparently some people feel the GPU doesn't have to work harder on 64 player maps, when half the players are at a choke fighting with tanks, choppers, rockets flying everywhere and explosions galore.. compared to empty. Yeah right. Maybe if you stared at the ground or the sky.

Again, benching empty server = retarded because nobody buys BF games to run around on an empty server.
 

desprado

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2013
1,645
0
0
Seriously i dont care about Mantle.

BF4 is running so good on my 3 GTX 780 Sli and R9 290 CF and people which own Hardcore Rigs dont even give a dam about Mantle.

Actually people who are hyping it are mid range PC user.
 
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