The AMD Mantle Thread

[hungtran]

If AMD was that behind in D3D, why did Microsoft put their APUs in their consoles?

 

[SPBHM]

If AMD was that behind in D3D, why did Microsoft put their APUs in their consoles?

because consoles are running different software, not catalyst downloaded from amd.com nor the same OS we use for the PC...
it's a fixed customized platform, nothing to compare.

 

[hungtran]

Except, the argument seems to be about the current gen AMD hardware not being able to work well with D3D. If it's purely drivers/software that are causing AMD to perform badly in D3D, why would they need Mantle instead of just optimizing their drivers? You would think optimizing drivers is easier than creating a new API.

 

[Shivansps]

Because DX11 has overheads, but we need to live with it, hell, devs does not even cared about DX11 until last year and it has been around since 2009.
So even if Mantle is good, its probably gona take a few years, and by them ill guess that GCN will be history, and thats the part where im not sure if Mantle can even work long term on pc.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Then how do you explain things like this:

AMD has a huge 35% deficit on the D3D 7850K, compared to NVidia. Both GPUs are clearly CPU bound by that weak sauce CPU, but NVidia comes out looking much better.

The question is why?



Correction, SOME game developers pushed for Mantle......many others are against it for various reasons, such as increased platform fragmentation.

Also, and this is just my theory, I think that AMD developed Mantle because they knew they were in trouble when it came to D3D performance.

They are obviously having problems, as seen by their inability to implement DX11 multithreading in their drivers, and their lower relative D3D performance in CPU bound or highly multithreaded games like BF4 and Crysis 3.

It couldn't possibly be the $700 GPU vs. the $550 one could it?

The CPU is part of the reason, but the 780ti is just plain bigger and faster than the 290x.

 

[omeds]

That makes little difference when CPU limited.

 

[desprado]

It couldn't possibly be the $700 GPU vs. the $550 one could it?

The CPU is part of the reason, but the 780ti is just plain bigger and faster than the 290x.

Wrong.R9 290X expensive now due to mining.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Wrong.R9 290X expensive now due to mining.

You jest? I had no idea other than the 100's of time's it's been mentioned that price gouging should have no effect on performance tiers in this thread.

 

[Carfax83]

It couldn't possibly be the $700 GPU vs. the $550 one could it?

The CPU is part of the reason, but the 780ti is just plain bigger and faster than the 290x.

Yes, the GTX 780 Ti is a faster GPU than the R290x, but both are effectively handicapped by the 7850K in D3D, so it doesn't really apply here..

You can see that by the performance of the 7850K R290x Mantle path, which is 18% faster than the GTX 780 Ti.

So by using Mantle, the 7850K + R290x gains nearly 60% over the D3D path, enough to overtake the GTX 780 Ti, proving that it's not the GPU that's responsible for the large deficit..

It's a combination of the API and the drivers....more so the drivers if you ask me, because NVidia doesn't suffer such a massive performance gap.

It's too bad this game doesn't support DX11 multithreading for NVidia cards, then we could see how it stacks up against Mantle..

 

[beginner99]

It couldn't possibly be the $700 GPU vs. the $550 one could it?

The CPU is part of the reason, but the 780ti is just plain bigger and faster than the 290x.

It is. That's why it should be faster if it is not CPU limited. However the graph clearly shows that the APU is limiting both GPUs. This is the best case scenario for mantle that thats why the 290x is better with mantle than the 780 ti with dx. However if you look at the dx results of the 290x you see that it performs a lot worse than the 780 ti and on mantle. Since this is a cpu limitation sit means that AMDs dx driver has, at least in BF4, a huge CPU bottleneck.

I favor AMD in the graphics department. Mainly due to better performance/price. But here I agree with carfax at least in BF4, AMD sx driver has a serious bottleneck.

 

[Will Robinson]

Wrong.R9 290X expensive now due to mining.

Wrong...in Australia 780Ti is $150 -$200 MORE expensive than R9 290X

 

[3DVagabond]

Wrong.R9 290X expensive now due to mining.

In NZ 290X is $785NZD the 780 ti is $1000NZD (lowest in stock prices). Both those prices are inclusive of 15% GST. Converted to USD less tax, 290X is $565 the 780 ti is $719. Other places are not suffering the same shortages and inflated prices. You can't determine the relative value of these cards using a market whose prices are unique to the rest of the world because of the mining craze.

 

[TeknoBug]

Funny how the price varies between the 290/290X and 780/780Ti around the world, some in EU claim that the AMD cards are cheaper. A 290X is about $40-50 more than a 780Ti in Canada, however the price of the mid-range cards are out of control, a 280X selling for as much as an MSRP 290X while the competing card GTX770 still sells for well under $400.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Funny how the price varies between the 290/290X and 780/780Ti around the world, some in EU claim that the AMD cards are cheaper. A 290X is about $40-50 more than a 780Ti in Canada, however the price of the mid-range cards are out of control, a 280X selling for as much as an MSRP 290X while the competing card GTX770 still sells for well under $400.

In europe the 780ti is around 20% more than the 290X.

Outside the US, Canada and other countries with artificially low electricity cost. Then there isnt much of a cryptocraze. Same reason why the cryptocraze doesnt affect AMDs worldwide sales much either.

So when comparing price/performance, including mantle, one has to remember the world differences. And the US/CA prices are an exception, not the norm.

 

[Zanovar]

Im not sure why anyone would take the 290x over the 290,and the 780 ti is still ridiculously priced(uk prices),im biased though as ive just bought a 290.anyways off topic sorry folks.

 

[beginner99]

Funny how the price varies between the 290/290X and 780/780Ti around the world, some in EU claim that the AMD cards are cheaper. A 290X is about $40-50 more than a 780Ti in Canada, however the price of the mid-range cards are out of control, a 280X selling for as much as an MSRP 290X while the competing card GTX770 still sells for well under $400.

It also greatly depends how you compare. stock vs stock the cheapest 290x is about 25% less expensive here. For the Asus DirectCU II the difference is only 10%. But these models are the most expensive custom 290x and the cheapest custom 780 Ti here.

 

[cytg111]

Then how do you explain things like this:

AMD has a huge 35% deficit on the D3D 7850K, compared to NVidia. Both GPUs are clearly CPU bound by that weak sauce CPU, but NVidia comes out looking much better.

The question is why?

I am sure I dont know, as I am sure you dont either.

Correction, SOME game developers pushed for Mantle......many others are against it for various reasons, such as increased platform fragmentation.

Correction? Where did i state it was all game devs? Never did? That would be stupid! When is the last time a president was elected with 100%? There is no correction to be made besides perhaps editing FUD out of your post, and you stopping implying made-up-stuff on others behalf.

Also, and this is just my theory, I think that AMD developed Mantle because they knew they were in trouble when it came to D3D performance.

Yes please do continue making things up. I bet if you repeat this enough times it will turn into reality too.

They are obviously having problems, as seen by their inability to implement DX11 multithreading in their drivers, and their lower relative D3D performance in CPU bound or highly multithreaded games like BF4 and Crysis 3.

Obviously? Obviously? So, you have reviewed the evidence and in your mind there is only one conlusion to be made; AMD cant figure out how to multithread their drivers? Hehe, it is a little funny though, let me ask you, what do you know about multithreading? Driver development? How confident do you feel when you conclude and speak out loud :"This is a multithreading issue in AMDs driver stack. I know this, because, well, I just do."?
This is just more misinformation and FUD. Please stop it sir.

 

[desprado]

Well Again GTX 780TI on top.
http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/65789-amd-mantle-battlefield-4-performance-ruminations/

 

[Genx87]

When can we expect Anandtech to post a full review? Im curious to see what they find out.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Well Again GTX 780TI on top.
http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/65789-amd-mantle-battlefield-4-performance-ruminations/

Another single player benchmark. They even stated they didn't search for a cpu taxing scene so as not artificially inflate the mantle scores. In other words this review is only concerned with max fps in a dx11 favoring scene. Once you hit a cpu wall dx11 performance will tank and mantle will stretch its legs.

 

[kane15]

Im not sure why anyone would take the 290x over the 290,and the 780 ti is still ridiculously priced(uk prices),im biased though as ive just bought a 290.anyways off topic sorry folks.

i got my 290x the day it came out for BF4 and paid $570 it also came with a free copy of BF4 so if you ask me i only really paid $510 US for it since i was buying the game anyway also the 290 wasn't released at the time.

the 'cryptocraze' would stop me from buying a second one so there's no crossfire in the near future for me till the price comes down

Another single player benchmark. They even stated they didn't search for a cpu taxing scene so as not artificially inflate the mantle scores. In other words this review is only concerned with max fps in a dx11 favoring scene. Once you hit a cpu wall dx11 performance will tank and mantle will stretch its legs.

that's true in MP when things get crazy is when i would get major fps hits in DX and that's where mantle can keep my head above water so to speak

im still a little suppressed at the results because as you can see from the SS i posted on the test range probably the least CPU limited situation in the game i gained a flat 60 fps just standing at the spawn point... but then again i did OC the hell out of my 290x 1100/1450

 

[Zanovar]

Hey dude enjoy your card:thumbsup:,crossfire fook that.

 

[Jaydip]

One thing guys DICE is not just using vanilla D3D for NV gpus they are augmenting it with NVAPI as well.It's scope is far limited compared to mantel but it may have some performance improvement tricks up it's sleeves.

 

[f1sherman]

Well Again GTX 780TI on top.
http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/65789-amd-mantle-battlefield-4-performance-ruminations/

It's a bit of a disappointment that even with close-to-metal, custom API, 290X doesn't overtake 780 Ti,

but you have to keep in mind that 780 Ti is simply more powerful GPU, and that NV has been quite busy too, with driver updates and improving Win 8.1 multithreading/CPU performance.

Driver Command Lists being "fundamentally broken in DX" and GCN cards being "Fully DX 11.1 compliant" turns out to be somewhat of a joke,
because it's Nvidia, and not AMD that gets bigger performance boost in Win 8.1

Good thing is - Mantle does deliver, crushing DX in performance,
bad thing is - it's very rough around the edges

but most of all, it's just a single game, and contrary to NV, AMD has been busy with Mantle, therefore not having time to work on DX performance.

They took a big risk by deciding to create new API, now they need to follow through by implementing it at any and every opportunity, and not forgo DX in the process.

Thief and Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare, looking right at ya!

 

[cmdrdredd]

One thing guys DICE is not just using vanilla D3D for NV gpus they are augmenting it with NVAPI as well.It's scope is far limited compared to mantel but it may have some performance improvement tricks up it's sleeves.

Where did you see this? I would like more information on that.